Circuit Breaker to Outlet AC Wiring and Ground

[Johnseye]

4 hours ago, KingRex said:

 I'm an electrician and have done a lot of experimenting on the best way to get power from my panel to my rack.  It's easy to create a ground Loop, but it's also very easy to avoid. Grounding is a very key element in the equation. An old ground rod attached to your panel may not drain as effectively as you want it to.  Utilizing dielectric potting material or a ufer ground in your foundation will greatly reduce unwanted noise.  

 

 There are also ways to approach this with materials such as cord that are not necessarily code legal but do a far better job than pipe or Romex.  Isolation from vibration of the Romex is also important.  Spacing from any other electrical circuits is also important.  

 

The type of box you put in the wall and the receptacles you install in that box are very important.

 

By far the best sound I got out of my system was a 10 gauge OFC cord from my panel directly into a distribution power strip. No receptacle in the wall, no cord from the wall to the distribution strip, just a direct feed into the distribution strip.  Cord can not pass through a floor, but hey, I want the best sound, and it can be done safely.   All my gear is fed from that one power strip. I have 2x135 watt monoblock amplifiers, a tube preamp, a DAC, a phono stage and computer server all fed from it. This was by far the most quiet and resolving installation I found.  Dynamics are very high and noise has been greatly reduced. Some of that noise being physical mechanical vibration you hear such as Toroids in your power amp humming.  

 

If you're going to go the all code legal route 2 x 10 gauge runs of romex will work fine.  Not all Romex is created equal. Cheap Home Depot Romex sourced from China run through high-speed dies is full of crystals and impurities. Slow drawn American-made copper is better.  It takes time and effort to find a distributor that carries that copper. It is available.  Very high Purity copper wire pulled through PVC and twisted during the pull is also an excellent installation.  $250 per foot is high, but your in NY.  I bill $640 per day.  You have maybe 2 days of work if you rebuild your panel and ground your system right.  

 

If you don't have Furutec receptacle, buy Albert Porter's, Porter ports.  Do not purchase isolated ground receptacles. They do nothing for you and actually have an inferior ground compared to a regular outlet.

 

Do not run 4 wire circuits. You do not want to share a neutral between the two circuits. Run two separate 3 wire runs.

 

Once again, ground ground ground. You want the best ground possible attached to your panel.  You want your new circuits grounds connected right onto that new ground bus in your panel. You want that ground bus connected directly to your new ground rod or ufer ground. You don't want it running through the case of your panel from the neutral bonding point to the Ground Bar.  If  the ground is landed on the neutral bonding point you want a 6 gauge jumper from there onto your Ground Bar.

 

It will be the legal to code route.  Helps when I sell the house.  Thanks for the advice, I'll do as much as possible.  The new grounding rod will need to come in the spring due to the frozen tundra outside.  If I have 2 grounding rods won't that create an issue with some devices connected to one rod and others to the other rod?  Also, any box model recommendations?  I've already got some decent outlets, same as those you mentioned.

[Johnseye]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

I will bet that a stereo that can survive an electromagnetic pulse weapon is not high on your list.

 

power amps on their own circuit is good from the standpoint of power supply, but may create a ground loop...

 

how much does the Benchmark draw?

 

Here's the Benchmark's info.  If I got another it would be 380w as the Personas are 8 ohm.  For now 100w.

 

CONTINUOUS AVERAGE OUTPUT POWER

< 0.0003 % THD+N at full rated power, 20 Hz to 20 kHz

100 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms, both channels driven

130 Watts per channel into 6 Ohms, both channels driven

190 Watts per channel into 4 Ohms, both channels driven

240 Watts per channel into 3 Ohms, both channels driven

200 Watts into 16 Ohms, bridged mono

380 Watts into 8 Ohms, bridged mono

480 Watts into 6 Ohms, bridged mono

[Ralf11]

You may want to go beyond the specs. and measure the power (VAr) actually needed when playing your speakers. 

 

I used a Kill-A-Watt (which our city library has!) to get an averaged approximation of this.  I turned the volume to a higher SPL than usual, and looked for big bass notes to play for the test.  It is not an instantaneous measure, and a datalogger would be easier to use, but worthwhile nonetheless. 

[Johnseye]

16 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

You may want to go beyond the specs. and measure the power (VAr) actually needed when playing your speakers. 

 

I used a Kill-A-Watt (which our city library has!) to get an averaged approximation of this.  I turned the volume to a higher SPL than usual, and looked for big bass notes to play for the test.  It is not an instantaneous measure, and a datalogger would be easier to use, but worthwhile nonetheless. 

 

Thanks.  I have a Kill-A-Watt.  I measured a while back, doing the same thing you did.  I'm going by memory and think it was around 250 then.  I'll have to do it again.  I was looking at isolation transformers then.  I'm still thinking of adding one.

[Ralf11]

add one - or... get a balanced power unit installed - build a bump-out on the wall just outside the outlet you will use to house it and isolate fan noise - if it has one

[KingRex]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

It will be the legal to code route.  Helps when I sell the house.  Thanks for the advice, I'll do as much as possible.  The new grounding rod will need to come in the spring due to the frozen tundra outside.  If I have 2 grounding rods won't that create an issue with some devices connected to one rod and others to the other rod?  Also, any box model recommendations?  I've already got some decent outlets, same as those you mentioned.

All grounds have to go to the panel.  Your electrician will not do otherwise.  You are just improving on the ground. Its the same as having a ground on the water pipe, ground rods and maybe a cast iron drain. You can't have too good a ground. Repeating myself, they all come back to the same point.  Never have a floating ground (not connected to the panel) .  It would never have enough potential to trip a CB if a fault went to ground. You would have 120 volt in your earth and when you went to turn on your hose, you would connect, lock on and probably die.   

 

I like Square D.  If you change your panel, the electrician may want to add a bunch of AFCI breakers.  They cost a good $48 my cost per.  Make sure to discuss.  Or, add a breaker or 2 for your new outlets and improve the ground in your panel.  Clean and deox the connections. Don't worry if your new feeds are AFCI.  The contact is the same in the device.  It just contains additional circuitry that senses arching conditions.

 

Search around online for wire wholesalers and ask where the wire is made and if its pure.  If you get lucky, you will find a guy who has worked with a lab, Med facility or military that demanded high quality conductor.  It will most likely be material to be installed in PCV or steel.  

 

Add a bank of outlets.  3 or 4 per feeder.   Have them all pigtailed back to the Incoming feed.  Don't go in and out of each receptacle.  Avoid distribution strips if you can.  Unless your willing to spend $ on the strip and cord connecting it to the wall.  That's just additional coloration.  Keep it simple with as few connections as possible.  

 

I'm Kingrex Electric on the internet in Seattle.  Call if you want. I have a website with contact info.  

[Johnseye]

9 hours ago, KingRex said:

All grounds have to go to the panel.  Your electrician will not do otherwise.  You are just improving on the ground. Its the same as having a ground on the water pipe, ground rods and maybe a cast iron drain. You can't have too good a ground. Repeating myself, they all come back to the same point.  Never have a floating ground (not connected to the panel) .  It would never have enough potential to trip a CB if a fault went to ground. You would have 120 volt in your earth and when you went to turn on your hose, you would connect, lock on and probably die.   

 

I like Square D.  If you change your panel, the electrician may want to add a bunch of AFCI breakers.  They cost a good $48 my cost per.  Make sure to discuss.  Or, add a breaker or 2 for your new outlets and improve the ground in your panel.  Clean and deox the connections. Don't worry if your new feeds are AFCI.  The contact is the same in the device.  It just contains additional circuitry that senses arching conditions.

 

Search around online for wire wholesalers and ask where the wire is made and if its pure.  If you get lucky, you will find a guy who has worked with a lab, Med facility or military that demanded high quality conductor.  It will most likely be material to be installed in PCV or steel.  

 

Add a bank of outlets.  3 or 4 per feeder.   Have them all pigtailed back to the Incoming feed.  Don't go in and out of each receptacle.  Avoid distribution strips if you can.  Unless your willing to spend $ on the strip and cord connecting it to the wall.  That's just additional coloration.  Keep it simple with as few connections as possible.  

 

I'm Kingrex Electric on the internet in Seattle.  Call if you want. I have a website with contact info.  

 

So any Square D box will do?   Will I benefit from a 20 amp outlet if I'm using a 20 amp breaker?  I won't be changing my panel, it has enough slots for a few breakers.

[KingRex]

I'm not sure your question. I think of the SqD box as a panel,  not a junction box.  Your keeping your existing panel.    My thought is a new circuit breaker in your existing panel. 1 per circuit.  From the panel new NMB wire or conduit to a box in your wall where the receptacles are landed.   You said you have good receptacles.  Code says a 20A receptacle is required if only one outlet is provided.  Meaning 1 duplex receptacle is all that is connected to the new circuit.  The quality is more important than the rating.  The Porter Port or Furutech will have a little less edgeness on the top end.  Less fatigue.  The same trebble extension.  I am suggesting a multigang box in your wall holding more than 1 outlet so 15A are fine.  

[Johnseye]

2 minutes ago, KingRex said:

I'm not sure your question. I think of the SqD box as a panel,  not a junction box.  Your keeping your existing panel.    My thought is a new circuit breaker in your existing panel. 1 per circuit.  From the panel new NMB wire or conduit to a box in your wall where the receptacles are landed.   You said you have good receptacles.  Code says a 20A receptacle is required if only one outlet is provided.  Meaning 1 duplex receptacle is all that is connected to the new circuit.  The quality is more important than the rating.  The Porter Port or Furutech will have a little less edgeness on the top end.  Less fatigue.  The same trebble extension.  I am suggesting a multigang box in your wall holding more than 1 outlet so 15A are fine.  

 

Ah, ok you were referring to the panel box.  I thought you were talking about the outlet box for RFI.

I'll have multiple outlets per circuit, so good there.  Thanks for all the advice.

[KingRex]

Thanks, I need to at one time or another try twisting 10awg NMB to see if that improves noise rejection.  Right now I just cant get beyond the cord I am using.  It really shut down mechanical humming I had from my amps.  I still have one existing feed of solid 10awg  THWN in steel that feeds things such as the wall warts that powers the speed controller on my TT, my TV and other non audio accessories.  The improvement of installing that dedicated circuit as opposed to 12 awg NMB in the wall that powered the whole living room was huge.  I mean really huge.  It did nothing to stop the mechanical hum from the Rega Osiris, but it sure increased the dynamics and bass response.  If you have a nice stereo, you are missing out on a lot of performance if you don't run dedicated lines to it.  The cord I utilize is only $5 per foot.  As a subcontractor I have installed a braid of pure silver (hot) and very pure copper (neutral and ground) conductor in a conduit directly into a custom power strip with very high end receptacles.   That created a stunning power supply.  I can install a system as such for those with a hefty bank account.  I would suggest it for tube gear.  That is what it was powering and it did a very good job.  I have all tube gear myself, but I was looking for a more cost effective route.  I did try military spec silver coated copper wire.  Oddly it was kind of dark.  Not what I expected.  The bass was more pronounced and powerful, but I find the CU cord more balanced and overall a better fit with my system.  Like you say, it is all system dependent on what material you use.  I do not think it system dependent that dedicated power will improve the overall performance.  I believe it is a firm truth. 

[KingRex]

I thought I was quoting Fast42 up above if this seemed out of the blue.

[Johnseye]

This is the article, written by John Atkinson a while back that stated "the electrician ran two new 30A lines to the listening room, one with the hot on one side of neutral, the other on the other."

 

What does "hot on one side of neutral, the other on the other" mean exactly?

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/features/991ac/index.html#DeojY6Fsx2OqWbSZ.99

 

https://www.stereophile.com/features/991ac/index.html

 

 

[One and a half]

27 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

This is the article, written by John Atkinson a while back that stated "the electrician ran two new 30A lines to the listening room, one with the hot on one side of neutral, the other on the other."

 

What does "hot on one side of neutral, the other on the other" mean exactly?

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/features/991ac/index.html#DeojY6Fsx2OqWbSZ.99

 

https://www.stereophile.com/features/991ac/index.html

 

 

Hmm. It is most likely two hot lines at 240V between the hots with the neutral to provide the 120V. In this case one hot is 180Deg out of phase compared with the other, other... did no one proof read this nonsense?

[Speedskater]

On 1/1/2018 at 7:01 PM, KingRex said:

What they are saying is use the same phase.  Always A or B phase.  There can be small differences in voltage between A and B phase.  That small voltage difference can cause voltage differential to ride on the ground casing humming.  

Small difference? Nope, there is a 240 Volt difference between the A and B leg or pole. It's a center tapped single phase system.

[Speedskater]

On 1/1/2018 at 6:20 PM, Speedskater said:

While the Safety Ground connection to the Neutral is an important part of the AC power system, the connection to Planet Earth does not enter into the day-to-day operation equation. It's only there for safety during thunderstorms, high voltage failures and to keep the Neutral near the potential of the soil.

 

On 1/1/2018 at 7:03 PM, KingRex said:

True but untrue.  It matters and will affect the SQ of your system.

If the connection to Planet Earth changes the Sound Quality of your system, then something is wrong with the AC power wiring.

Maybe a lost Neutral or a Neutral, Safety Ground swap problem.

 

 

[monteverdi]

I found that link pretty interesting: http://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/how-to-wire-your-house-for-good-power/

They recommend PSA outlet but i found them sounding not good (i guess because they are Ni plated).

[monteverdi]

what about metal clad wires vs romex? (MC wires are normally twisted )

[bobfa]

All,

 

The most important thing here is safety.  Followed by code compliance in the zoning area where the OP is.  

 

Open neutral, improper grounding, unbalance loading across phases should be addressed but the installer.  Grounding is very important for safety and as we are finding there is a relationship to EMC/EMI in our systems.

 

I do not have much experience with Arc Fault or GFCI equipment so I do not want to comment there.  I understand that in some areas you have to do upgrades of that type of equipment if you make changes in your panel..

 

If you provide multiple outlets to the "system" I would be very careful about not delivering both phases to interconnected equipment that worries me personally.  But ask your electrician.  What I think others have commented about is the neutral being pulled to one side or the other causing possible over-voltage issues and imbalance.

 

A typical/modern US home is fed three wires. Like below.  Loads that require 240V are connected to the two "hot" leads and neutral and possibly ground.  Normal loads connect to one of the 120v legs and neutral.  Almost all codes now require a three wire socket with the third pin being ground.  In some areas that ground is brought back to the panel in the metal conduit that the wiring is contained in.

 

------------------------------------------ 120V

 

----------------------------------------- 0 V (neutral)

 

----------------------------------------- 120V

 

--RJF

 

REF : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code

 

[Speedskater]

As for Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters or Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters, more and more jurisdictions are requiring them in more circuits.

So with any new work or updates, they may be required. Now GFCI's are rather benign, but AFCI's can be problematic with legacy equipment or appliances. Oh wait, some power conditioners or surge suppressors can leak enough noise current onto the Safety Ground to trip a GFCI.

[WuNgUn]

18 hours ago, bobfa said:

A typical/modern US home is fed three wires. Like below.  Loads that require 240V are connected to the two "hot" leads and neutral and possibly ground.  

 

No neutral in 240v phase to phase... But ground, certainly. 

[Speedskater]

Some240V appliances have 4 wire cords (Hot, Hot, Neutral & Safety Ground). Because they have 120V sub-circuits, lights or receptacles.

[WuNgUn]

Just now, Speedskater said:

Some240V appliances have 4 wire cords (Hot, Hot, Neutral & Safety Ground). Because they have 120V sub-circuits, lights or receptacles.

Absolutely... 

I was meaning in respect to the function, whereas 240V doesn't use a neutral. But yeah, a stove would be a good example, elements at 240,lights and clock at 120

[monteverdi]

In that link I quoted one of the recommendations is to use 240V for amps etc..I am not likely to try that.

[Johnseye]

I'm thinking about using this wire for the breaker to outlet run.  10awg twisted hot, neutral and ground.  I think I'll need about 100 ft.  

 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-10-AWG-2-Conductor-Twisted-Submersible-Pump-Cable-By-the-Foot/50111480

 

I'm also considering putting a 1000VA Topaz isolation transformer under the breaker box to go between the outlets and box.

 

[Speedskater]

2 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

I'm thinking about using this wire for the breaker to outlet run.  10awg twisted hot, neutral and ground.

Just twist the Hot and Neutral with the Safety Ground in close proximity. Bill Whitlock wrote a paper about this. With maybe 3 or 4 or 5 twists per foot (the number of twists is no big deal, just whatever is easy and looks good).  Most electricians will think that you are crazy. 

* * * * * * * * * *

For other readers doing 120V system wiring.

The Hot, Neutral and Safety Ground should have a 1 to 1 to 1 ratio. All in close proximity to each other (close as in the same conduit or box). This means that the job should use about the same lengths of Hot, Neutral and Safety Ground wire. If the Hot/Neutral split two directions in a junction box, then that's where the Safety Ground should split also.