Circuit Breaker to Outlet AC Wiring and Ground

[Speedskater]

19 minutes ago, monteverdi said:

In that link I quoted one of the recommendations is to use 240V for amps etc..I am not likely to try that.

Very few of us have amps that are correctly setup for US style 240V. But it can be a good way to go. Also it's good to wire big permanently  installed isolation or balanced transformers with a 240V input and a 120V output or two 120V outputs.

 

Another thing, for huge home theater systems  with thousands of watts and 120V amplifiers (with balanced inputs). A 120/120V Multi-Wire Branch Circuit that uses both 120V power poles is a good idea.

[KingRex]

On 1/2/2018 at 12:55 PM, Johnseye said:

This is the article, written by John Atkinson a while back that stated "the electrician ran two new 30A lines to the listening room, one with the hot on one side of neutral, the other on the other."

 

What does "hot on one side of neutral, the other on the other" mean exactly?

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/features/991ac/index.html#DeojY6Fsx2OqWbSZ.99

 

https://www.stereophile.com/features/991ac/index.html

 

 

He is saying use the same phase.  Use the CB space in the panel across from one  another.  Or, you need to skip a CB if going verticle. Vertically they are phase A, phase B, Phase A, phase B etc. Across from each other they're the same phase.  If you use different phases there can be voltage differences between the phases and that imbalance can ride on the ground causing ground loops and humming. Your electrician will know what that means. When you install this way you have to run a dedicated neutral per hot circuit.  That means you cannot use 10 gauge NMB that is black red white and green.  Run two completely separate feeder circuits.  Your electrician will also know what that means. 

 

If what I am telling you to do is not what John Atkins intended to say in stereophile, I would ignore his advice. I am telling you the best way to do it.  That might sound a little pretentious but I have not only experimented on my own system but read lots and lots and lots of articles written by people who build out power for high-end stereos and or recording studios. There are rules to follow in audio.

[Johnseye]

12 minutes ago, KingRex said:

He is saying use the same phase.  Use the CB space in the panel across from one  another.  Or, you need to skip a CB if going verticle. Vertically they are phase A, phase B, Phase A, phase B etc. Across from each other they're the same phase.  If you use different phases there can be voltage differences between the phases and that imbalance can ride on the ground causing ground loops and humming. Your electrician will know what that means. When you install this way you have to run a dedicated neutral per hot circuit.  That means you cannot use 10 gauge NMB that is black red white and green.  Run two completely separate feeder circuits.  Your electrician will also know what that means. 

 

If what I am telling you to do is not what John Atkins intended to say in stereophile, I would ignore his advice. I am telling you the best way to do it.  That might sound a little pretentious but I have not only experimented on my own system but read lots and lots and lots of articles written by people who build out power for high-end stereos and or recording studios. There are rules to follow in audio.

 

Why can't I use 10-2 NMB?  Shouldn't I be able to use this NMB provided it's dedicated per circuit?

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-wire-cable/shop-all-electrical-wire-cable/10-2-type-nm-b-cable-with-ground-wire/none/p-1474478926959.htm

 

I'm still leaning toward that twisted 10-2 I linked earlier.  What I just linked from Menards can't be twisted.  I may end up giving you a call tomorrow so I have this 100% straight.

[KingRex]

18 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Why can't I use 10-2 NMB?  Shouldn't I be able to use this NMB provided it's dedicated per circuit?

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-wire-cable/shop-all-electrical-wire-cable/10-2-type-nm-b-cable-with-ground-wire/none/p-1474478926959.htm

 

I'm still leaning toward that twisted 10-2 I linked earlier.  What I just linked from Menards can't be twisted.  I may end up giving you a call tomorrow so I have this 100% straight.

You are using 10/2.  You have the correct type of wire.  You dont want 10/3.    I  have not had a chance to really look at the wire in the link to  see if it is as good a quality as you should get.  In the end any 10/2 is going to work well. Well sourced, more pure slow drawn wire is capturing  the last 5%.  Call Joe Pitman at Kosmic Audio.  He's a dealer and friend. Posts a lot on Audionirvana.  He found a nice 10/2 NMB.  He might know where to get more.  

[Superdad]

6 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Just twist the Hot and Neutral with the Safety Ground in close proximity. Bill Whitlock wrote a paper about this. With maybe 3 or 4 or 5 twists per foot (the number of twists is no big deal, just whatever is easy and looks good).  Most electricians will think that you are crazy. 

* * * * * * * * * *

 

Yes, this is VERY beneficial sonically!  More like 1.5 to 2 or 3 complete twists per foot with #10 wire. 

This will sound crazy, but twist to the left (which is actually called a right-hand lay).  That is, say you tie the starting ends to something: You hold one wire in each hand; bring the wire in your right hand up and over the wire in your left hand.  So you are twisting counter-clockwise.

 

I have 25 feet of #000 running from my main house panel to the hiring-dedicated sub-panel in my studio, then home runs of both solid #10 and Hovland MainLine in the walls.  Both phases are available (I may reconfigure my amps for 240V someday), and the two sides sides of the line do sound different (even if I turn off the rest of the house breakers for the test).

 

Make sure your electrician uses the screw terminals of the outlets--not the quick push-in holes!  After a month of use--especially the outlet for the power amp--pull the outlet back out from the wall and further tighten the screws.  Do that for the feeding breakers as well.  The expansion/contraction and vibration from curentm flowing will loosen things. You will be surprised at the extra screw turns you will get when you do this.

 

Ciao, 

ALEX

[Speedskater]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

This will sound crazy, but twist to the left (which is actually called a right-hand lay).

I could see mechanical reasons for twisting stranded conductors one way rather than the other. But with solid wires, it doesn't matter.

 

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

Make sure your electrician uses the screw terminals of the outlets--not the quick push-in holes!

Yes those back-stab connections are bad news.  However there are some very good receptacles that at first glance look like back-stab. The wire goes thru a hole on the back, but is secured with a screw on the side.

[KingRex]

On 1/1/2018 at 7:58 PM, Johnseye said:

 

Thanks.  I have a Kill-A-Watt.  I measured a while back, doing the same thing you did.  I'm going by memory and think it was around 250 then.  I'll have to do it again.  I was looking at isolation transformers then.  I'm still thinking of adding one.

Careful with power conditioners. They work well with some gear and not with others.  If you have clean power avoide them. If dirty, you need to consider the source of polutiin and you need to consider the gear that will be on the conditioner.  Power conditioners (lumping isolation transformers into this) veil the sound and compress the soundstage. Sometimes.  Sometimes they remove harsh high frequency noise and improve the overall sound.  You need to find a thread about what works well and where.  There are 4 types of conditioners and they all have a good place, or a bad effect.

 

Having said that, I have a 2.4kva topaz line isolation transformer I don't use anymore. It worked well with my CJ Premier 140.  It did not work well with front end gear. 

I had a Isoteck Syncro and have friends with still in use.  It worked well with my Regarding Osiris.  It was horrble with my CJ. It did not work with my front end gear.  

I utilize and Akiko Corelli. I love it.  Works great with all my gear.  I took it to a friends place with more resolving speakers than mine. It ruined his bass and made the whole presentation flat.  The distributor said it has to be in system for 24 hours.  It was in for 3?????

 

Go through you house and replace every dimmer with a Litton Maestro 600 or 1000. Even the under cabinet lights. They are the worst.  Get plug in filters and place them next to your desktop computer.  

[KingRex]

On 1/2/2018 at 6:51 PM, Speedskater said:

Small difference? Nope, there is a 240 Volt difference between the A and B leg or pole. It's a center tapped single phase system.

I have not re-read the article but I have never seen a high leg in a residential setting.  They only exist off Delta 3 phase transformers. Houses are 2 leg single phase.  Unless you have a serious growler mansion as well as 3 phase being available on the street and you request the utility provide it you wont see it.   I doubt it was a high leg unless he was powering a recording studio or a store showroom. 

[KingRex]

On 1/2/2018 at 8:44 PM, monteverdi said:

what about metal clad wires vs romex? (MC wires are normally twisted )

Now your talking shielded vs not shielded.  Some people say shielding power conductors veils or compresses dynamics.  There is an interaction between steel MC and the power.  Steel is magnetic, as well as conduit.  You have to be careful to ground the casing well as it will, act as a choke and really cause problems.  Aluminum MC is not magnetic, but still needs to be grounded well.  .

It cost about 2 to 2.5 times the material cost to purchase MC and its harder to install.

 

Interesting thought. I have heard it suggested in the past but never read a real comparison between MC of either type and NMB.  

[Audiodinosaur]

I'm going to ask a very basic question in what is a higher level thread: Is there any reason not to use a wall outlet rated at 20 amps in a 15 amp circuit?

 

I moved some audio equipment and decided to install some new outlets.  Found that the builder of my house had put outlets rated at 15 amps in a circuit with a 20 amp breaker.  Been here almost 20 years and the house didn't burn down, but I was definitely not impressed. Even I know that is not good.

 

But what about the other way?  Logic says there is no downside to having a higher rated outlet.

 

[KingRex]

16 minutes ago, Audiodinosaur said:

I'm going to ask a very basic question in what is a higher level thread: Is there any reason not to use a wall outlet rated at 20 amps in a 15 amp circuit?

 

I moved some audio equipment and decided to install some new outlets.  Found that the builder of my house had put outlets rated at 15 amps in a circuit with a 20 amp breaker.  Been here almost 20 years and the house didn't burn down, but I was definitely not impressed. Even I know that is not good.

 

But what about the other way?  Logic says there is no downside to having a higher rated outlet.

 

How about I try to stay at it this way. It's all about load diversity. When you have a 12 gauge 20 amp circuit running around the living room, you have five, six, seven eight or more outlets for that circuit to have a load connected to it. Any one of those Outlets will probably carry nothing more than a half to maybe two amps of load.

When you have a dedicated circuit run to a piece of equipment such as a garbage disposal or dishwasher you only have one Outlet. When you only have one Outlet, the code dictates you must provide a receptacle rated to the CB feeding it.  In that situation you need a 20 amp receptacle.

In a roundabout way I am saying putting 15 amp receptacles on a 20 gauge circuit when there are multiple Outlets is perfectly fine. It's what pretty much every installer does. A 15 amp preferred receptacle is about $0.49. A 20 amp receptacle is about $2.50. When you've got 60 to put in the house it starts adding up.

As a side note to that all, I hate installers who stabbed the wire in the back of a receptacle. It's a horrible horrible connection and I've seen many arcing incidents that melt the receptacle and the associated plastic box. That is how many fires happen in houses. That is also one of the reasons why $50 arc fault circuit breakers are now required on pretty much every feeder in your house. It stops arching  from happening.

 

  I would have to dig around in my code book and check, but I am not sure if you can put a 20 amp receptacle on 14 gauge wire that may be in your walls. A higher-rated outlet may leave the end user to think they can put a larger Appliance on to the circuit. 

[monteverdi]

3 hours ago, KingRex said:

Now your talking shielded vs not shielded.  Some people say shielding power conductors veils or compresses dynamics.  There is an interaction between steel MC and the power.  Steel is magnetic, as well as conduit.  You have to be careful to ground the casing well as it will, act as a choke and really cause problems.  Aluminum MC is not magnetic, but still needs to be grounded well.  .

It cost about 2 to 2.5 times the material cost to purchase MC and its harder to install.

 

Interesting thought. I have heard it suggested in the past but never read a real comparison between MC of either type and NMB.  

I used the Al version of MC a lot through my house but not for the circuit for my audio (PVC conduits). What about wall boxes (2/4 gang)? Steel ones are much more sturdy compared to the plastic ones which is important if one uses a better gripping version of a wall outlet but then they are magnetic and conducting. They are grounded if one uses an outlet which does not have isolated ground.

I have light gauge steel construction and therefore any metallic box will be supplying ground to the framing.

[Ralf11]

3 hours ago, KingRex said:

...  If you have clean power avoid them. ...

 

 

But how do you tell?  

[Johnseye]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

 

 

But how do you tell?  

 

+1

[Speedskater]

3 hours ago, KingRex said:

I have not re-read the article but I have never seen a high leg in a residential setting.  They only exist off Delta 3 phase transformers. Houses are 2 leg single phase.  Unless you have a serious growler mansion as well as 3 phase being available on the street and you request the utility provide it you wont see it.   I doubt it was a high leg unless he was powering a recording studio or a store showroom. 

Maybe 'pole' was a poor word choice. Because I agree with you.

 

As for High Leg Delta (or Red Dog Delta) no you wont see that in a home, but in an older apartment you could.

(most others will probably wonder what we are talking about)

[Speedskater]

15 hours ago, Johnseye said:

Why can't I use 10-2 NMB?  Shouldn't I be able to use this NMB provided it's dedicated per circuit?

I really love Menards, but the nearest is a 2 hour drive. As to NM-B cable, I would go to a electrical supply store and get real SouthWire Romex®.  It's symmetrical enough, so that there is little to gain by going to a Twist Pair & ground. Not all the other NM-B cables are made so that they remain symmetrical after install.

[Johnseye]

13 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

I really love Menards, but the nearest is a 2 hour drive. As to NM-B cable, I would go to a electrical supply store and get real SouthWire Romex®.  It's symmetrical enough, so that there is little to gain by going to a Twist Pair & ground. Not all the other NM-B cables are made so that they remain symmetrical after install.

 

I can't use Romex.  Conduit is code.  Plus, twisting pairs and ground with Romex isn't possible.  Here's what I ordered.  It is from Southwire.

 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-10-AWG-2-Conductor-Twisted-Submersible-Pump-Cable-By-the-Foot/50111480

 

[KingRex]

23 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I can't use Romex.  Conduit is code.  Plus, twisting pairs and ground with Romex isn't possible.  Here's what I ordered.  It is from Southwire.

 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-10-AWG-2-Conductor-Twisted-Submersible-Pump-Cable-By-the-Foot/50111480

 

I don't understand, do you live in a Brownstone.  If so and the requirement is for steel/AL jacketed MC cable or conduit  then a pump cord would not fit code.  Cord is not code legal in a residence anyways.  Look up NEC 400.8 uses Not Permitted.  

 

Of course I love cord.  If your going the non code legal route I would steer you to an OFC cord that is around $5 or so a foot.

[Speedskater]

I don't understand either. Yesterday he wrote about NM-B and today about conduit.

 

The cable and cord thing may just be a mix-up.

[Johnseye]

10 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

I don't understand either. Yesterday he wrote about NM-B and today about conduit.

 

The cable and cord thing may just be a mix-up.

 

My mistake on the NM-B.  I didn't realize it was Romex.  But I did find this.

 

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/31149/can-romex-nm-b-be-run-through-conduit

 

The reason for the cord is that it's twisted.  I would rather not twist 3 strands every foot if I can buy all the cable twisted from start to end.  I also don't know why 3 twisted 10awg wires wouldn't fit in conduit if they could fit on their own.  The cord isn't sheathed.

[Johnseye]

Just now, Johnseye said:

 

My mistake on the NM-B.  I didn't realize it was Romex.  But I did find this.

 

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/31149/can-romex-nm-b-be-run-through-conduit

 

The reason for the cord is that it's twisted.  I would rather not twist 3 strands every foot if I can buy all the cable twisted from start to end.  I also don't know why 3 twisted 10awg wires wouldn't fit in conduit if they could fit on their own.  The cord isn't sheathed.

 

Then again it may be sheathed.  It does say moisture resistant jacket.  I'll have to see if it's insulated beyond the jacket and if it fits.  I can always strip off the outer jacket.

[Speedskater]

You don't run NM-B thru conduits, except for short distances, when the conduit is there for mechanical protection.

You do need a good electrician.

[Johnseye]

1 minute ago, Speedskater said:

You don't run NM-B thru conduits, except for short distances, when the conduit is there for mechanical protection.

You do need a good electrician.

 

As I said, I have a good electrician.  He's not on the job until Monday and I'm preparing for the work.  I'm not an electrician, didn't know what NM-B was and have limited knowledge in the area which is why I asked for advice from those experienced.

[Johnseye]

I'll also add that not all electricians are created equal.  An electrician who understands home audio and all its nuances is not common.  In fact, based on all the controversy discussed in this forum alone between professionals, including electricians and engineers, I don't know if a "good electrician" is going to know it all.  In fact, a good electrician will be one who agrees with most of my audiophile nonsense requests provided they stay within code.

[Ralf11]

are we going to get pics of this operation?

 

BTW, I still say build a bumpout on the side of the house for the iso. trans.