Best USB cable to use between computer and dac?

[mtnbst7]

I am currently running toslink from a mac mini into a recently built camelot arthur v3. I am considering the V-link by musical fidelity so I can run usb to coax. Any thoughts on this? (camelot has no usb input)

 

[tarquineous]

That would be a very good improvement, and will be more consistent in sound quality. You will still have to experiment with the three cables directly involved with the DAC's performance. The USB cable, the SPDIF coax, and the interconnect from DAC to rest of system. If you have a way to correct absolute polarity, that would be a plus. Many of the earlier made DACs had this function. Now days, there are DACs costing 5K to even 15K that do not correct for polarity. They (the manufacturers), must think people are stupid enough to believe that parts quality (and cost), will result in correct polarity.

If you cannot switch polarity with your equipment, one of the latest options is to get the Channel D music program. You can switch absolute polarity on your computer with this program to find which sounds best, then store the music file that way.

 

[mtnbst7]

Thank you very much for the reply! This is very helpful, the camelot has a polarity switch right on the front. I have not messed with it, I will be sure to once the v-link is hooked up. The design of the DAC has not been altered since its original design in 1997, the DAC was built in 2010. Thanks again.

 

[Pix]

Hi sandyk

 

Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure I understand exactly, but as I interpret your note, you only supply your BR writer with data from your computer and use a separate power supply for the device itself. Interesting. Gives me confidence to keep exploring. I'm just not sure about the sensitivity of a DAC and the possible consequences of this approach.I guess the smart thing is to talk to the manufacturer.

 

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again.

 

 

 

[sandyk]

Hi Pix

You will get a better idea of what I am doing in the large photo on P.4 of the attached link.

On p.5 you will also see a couple of DIY USB cables that I made up.At least one C.A. member uses a commercial (longer) version of the double cable (much prettier!) with claimed improved results.

Regards

Alex

 

http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=7159&page=4

 

Disclaimer:

I am not the real Admin of R.G.,and I have NO commercial interests.These are purely DIY projects that other members and friends have shown an interest in. I am not posting this link to ignite yet another futile discussion on why such things are a waste of time, or trying to poach members !!!

 

[AT0MAC]

It made me realize there must be a difference in USB cables.

Normally I would not think so, because its just 1s and 0s - but as someone stated so did people think about about Coax cables too in the beginning.

And on Coax cables there sure is a difference!

I have even tested a really good Coax up against Denon Link v4 (with Denons official expensive blue DL cable) in a blind a/b test were without any doubt the Coax won.

 

Back to USB:

Anybody heard the AQVOX Audiophile USB? (http://www.aqvox.de/cable.html)

I just ordered that and a USB-LowNoise Power Supply.

 

Anybody hear tried that combination on their DAC?

I have a Arcam rDAC with stock PSU (but thinking of getting a SBooster BO2WS PSU for it too).

 

 

[Dennis Graves]

I have tried several USB cables in my system.I started with less expensive cables and was not impressed. Then I installed the Wireworld Silver cable which was quite good($300). At the recommendation of a dealer, I decided to try the $600 Wireworld Platinum. It did not take more than 30 seconds to see the substantial improvement of the Platinum over the Silver in my system.

There is more extension, bloom, detail, smoothness and, critically, freedom from distortion (especially high frequency) with the Platinum. I have spent much more and seen less improvement with many other cables (power, interconnect, etc).

 

I should note that my system (and the classical music I listen to) likely will demonstrate such differences better than just about any other: I am sending the USB signal from the computer to the best USB converter made (Berkeley Audio), thence to the best digital cable made (Stealth Varidig Sextet XLR), then to a DAC that is the equal of any (Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC). My test piece is a high res download of the Second Movement of Shostakovich’s 8th Symphony – lots of high frequencies (flutes, violins, etc.) that are very loud and hard to reproduce without significant distortion. This movement sounds very strident on 99% of high end systems.

 

With a lesser digital link than the Stealth, the differences would not be as noticeable; yet, with any high quality system I expect the Platinum would be well worth the extra $300. Incidentally, I am building a Computer Audiophile CAPS (V2) music server, and I hope that will result in another significant step up in sound quality, which the Platinum would further demonstrate.

 

When you consider the Stealth digital link goes for $3000+, the Wireworld Platinum USB is a bargain at $600. And, by the way, I would not have the expensive Stealth except that I have become convinced that getting a good digital signal to a great DAC is the most important part of high end audio. While silly expensive, the Stealth is simply enough better than anything else I have tried (and that is a LOT of digital links) that I had to have it.

 

 

 

[jacquesr]

Tx

 

[Rosewind]

AToMAC.

 

Did you receive the Aqvox cable and USB psu? How long is the USB cable that you ordered?

 

I have just ordered a 3 meter-long Aqvox USB cable, so I am curious to hear about you experience with the Aqvox USB cable.

 

I must admit that when I hear two authorities on USB DACs say that a 3 meter-long USB cable will most likely degrade the sound quality, I wonder if I should have gone with the shorter 1,7 meter cable instead?

 

My idea was to move the computer away from my sound system, but if this is clearly counterproductive to sound quality from my Ayre QB-9, then it is a no go. I suppose that I will have to listen for myself. I have the stock USB cable that came with my Ayre to test it against.

 

I know that Aqvox has made USB audio cables since 2006, and that they make their own USB DAC, so I guess they should know better than producing 3 meter-, 5 meter- and 7 meter-long cables that would degrade sound quality when transferring 192/24 signals through them.

 

Here's what Aqvox has to say about USB cable length on their website:

 

"Length of the USB cable

 

Our experiments with cable length showed, that the sonic degradation issued by the length of a quality USB-cable has very little/no effect."

 

Fortunately Aqvox offers a 30-day return policy.

 

Best wishes,

Peter

 

[Oystein]

I also found the Aqvox clean USB power when browsing the net some time ago.

 

It is common knowledge that the PSU of a computer is generating lots of electrical noise and the 5Volt USB power feed is not noise-free as high-end audio would advise.

 

My USB-DAC needs 5V USB power for the USB receiver ship so this noisy 5V runs (the electrical current does actually) trough my USB cable.

By finding the Aqvox PSU I realised I can make a very simple clean 5 Volt myself by using 12V from any Molex connector in the PC and clean this up by a linear voltage regulator (7805 / LM317) to a DC socket installed in an unused PCI bracket.

Make a USB male to female adapter connect the female side the the clean power and for 5 Euro in parts I achieved the same or maybe even better.

 

I believe signal isolation in a USB cable can be of influence.

USB data will always be transferred to the other end of any cable but timing differences due to fault correction within bytes or resending the data the receiving end has to buffer the signal and remove timing differences.

 

I guess (I am honest here that I do not know the exact details here) the design of the USB receiver in the DAC will determine how much error it can handle without increasing jitter in the signal fed to the DAC ship.

 

The bottom line can be that the USB cable do make a difference to some DAC's depending on their own design.

 

For the above mentioned 5 Euro I am willing to experiment to see if my clean 5 Volt will be beneficial. If not the investment was very small and the "peace of mind" is worth 5 Euro at least ;-)

 

 

 

[ggking7]

That's really interesting, please let us know how it goes.

 

[AT0MAC]

Yes, I received it, tested it and delivered it back within 30 days.

I was actually quite surprised that there was a difference first of all, and then after realizing that I was VERY pleased with the improvements the AQVOX cable gave my system.

I will try to make it very short: It was like everything just fell into place, it sounded how it was supposed to sound. Softened tweeter, broadened midrange and a faster punchier bass. Not HUGE improvements, but a little here and a little there and overall it just sounded better.

We are talking tiny details here, but noticable for a super critical listener like me. Biggest difference was that the overall soundstage became more 3D like and seemed to have gained both with and depth.

 

Whenever the NAD C390DD is ready to be delivered I might try get one again, to test it in a much better system than what I have now, to see if the improvements are even more obvious.

 

Because I see a big future for USB audio i decided to keep the USB power adapter. Cant say for sure it made that big of an improvement, but that might be due to the fact I have very little things running on my other USB ports as well. If I stressed the USB controller more in my Mac it might make a big difference too.

 

By the way, the cable I ordered was only 50cm long, just to test if it made any sense to upgrade on USB cables I started with their cheapest option.

Next time I buy I most likely go for the 1.7m option.

 

[Rosewind]

Thanks for reporting back! Good to hear that the cable made a difference.

 

I'll be able to make my own tests of the Aqvox usb cable in a week or so. It will be interesting to listen whether the cable makes an audible difference. Later I may test the USB PSU. I found a few other threads about this interesting PSU on CA, so I am sure that I will want to test this at some point in time.

 

There is an USB-test in one of the most recent editions of (German-based) "Audio", no. 7, 2011. In that test an Aqvox cable came out as the test winner. The test included some 12 cables (here in alphabetical order):

 

Aqvox USB / 1 meter: 150€

Audioquest Carbon / 1,5 meters: 150€

Cardas Clear Serial Bus / 1 meter: 170€

Entreq Challenge / 1 meter: 885€

Entreq Discover / 1 meter: 245€

In-Akustik Premium High Speed / 1 meter: app. 8€

Kimber USB / 1 meter: 70€

Kimber USB-AG / 1,5 meters: 170€

Nuforce Impulse / 1,8 meters: app.35€

Oehlenbach USB A-B / 1,5 meters: app. 32€

Wireworld Starlight USB / 1 meter: app. 115€

Wireworld Ultraviolet USB / 1 meter: app. 56€

Standard kabel (no other data, used as base)

 

Best wishes,

Peter

 

[AT0MAC]

I dont seem to find the article you mention

 

I found another article though on Audios website about general USB audio:

http://www.audio.de/ratgeber/tipps-und-tricks-zur-musik-uebertragung-per-usb-1163895.html

 

Beside of that, I am really pleased to hear that they think AQVOX was the best in test, before I made my own little test I had considered Audioquest (because it looks awesome), NuForce Impulse (because it's cheap) and Wireworld (because I like their idea about seperating data and power within the cable design).

 

In my opinion there is no doubt about the next time I buy an USB cable for audio use, it's going to be the AQVOX.

Sidenote: I like the idea that AQVOX only have ONE cable in range, go "all in" or don't do it at all approach is just awesome!

 

[Rosewind]

AToMAC.

 

The results are included in the text version of the magazine below the text from the USB guide. The cables are listed alphabetically and their sonic qualities are outlined briefly and matched against the sonic quality of a standard USB cable. There is no ranking or points given.

 

If you PM me with your e-mail, I'll be happy to send you a pdf-copy of the article.

 

Best wishes,

Peter

 

[Rosewind]

I just noticed on the Aqvox web-site that the Aqvox USB psu doesn't improve the Ayre QB-9's SQ, hence it is listed as not compatible. That saves some €uros for me.

 

I still would like to hear from Charles or Gordon as to the possible problematic nature of using a 3-meter-long USB cable with the Ayre DAC.

 

Best wishes,

Peter

 

[nicks]

Hi

 

I thoroughly recommend the Revelation Audio Labs USB cables. I tried the dual-conduit initially followed by the power-free version. Both provide stunning results, the power-free version improving on the dual-conduit even with the latter's power 'leg' is disconnected.

 

The improvement in the resolution of dCS front end with these cables has been huge. And given the relatively modest cost they are a bargain. I'm now a convert to Computer Audio because the sound I'm achieving from ripped red book CD's has now surpassed the dCS Verdi CD transport.

 

If you are in the market for USB (or firewire) cables you should hear what these cables are capable of, in a suitably transparent system they are revelatory.

 

-

Nick

 

[tom wright]

Where are we today? Best USB2 cable for 192 kHz? To run from macbookpro to Berkeley USB converter to Berkeley DAC?

tx, tw

 

 

[Dennis Graves]

I tried serveral from my music server to my Berkeley USB converter (which goes to my Berkeley Alpha DAC via a Stealth Varidig Sextet XLR digital link). IF you system is in fact high resolution, this cable link (like all others) will make a difference. There may be a few that are competitive (even better?)but I found the Wireworld Platinum was very good and certainly enough better than the Wireworld that was the next step down. We spend thousands on other cables, so $600 for a USB cable is a relative bargain. IF your system is high resolution, you can't afford not spending for a top notch USB cable. The problem with many of the comments you see on Computer Audiophile is that you don't know the system the cable is in. If it is a midfi (eg, $10 to $20k) system, there may not be much difference. If it is a true high resolution system, which will typically have between $10 and $20K in cables), it will make a difference.

 

[barrows]

Interesting that you find a difference from the WW Platinum and Silver models. Technically speaking, there should be absolutely no difference, as the design is the same, with the only physical difference being solid silver vs. silver plated conductors. At the high frequency of USB2 transmission, a silver plated conductor should be equal with solid silver, because all the signal travels virtually on the surface of the conductor and as a field around it.

I am not suggesting that you do not hear the differences which you report, just that I find it interesting from a technical perspective.

 

[Mark Powell]

All cables have to obey the laws of physics. Of course we don't yet know all those laws yet. But 'price' has never come into the relevant equations so far and it never will.

 

That said, the sound can definitely be altered with different cables. No one really knows why (see 'laws' above). But low-cost 'generic' cables vary greatly, as do expensive specialist cables. In fact the variation is so great in both that they probably overlap totally. Listen to cables, remembering that for not much money you can buy a lot of generic ones to try, and a good dealer should loan you some expensive ones - cables are very system dependent so you must try them on your system. Find the one you like best, then concern yourself with the price. You might be in for a pleasant surprise. Even on a high cost system.

 

[tom wright]

dennis, this helps.

 

when said and done, will music server path ever sound as good as cd path?

 

server path will = macbook---WWplatinum----bada-usb converter--- MIT oracle MAx proline adjustible---bada dac.

 

cd path = meridian g98--bada dac.

 

these are played directly, w/o preamp, to classe omicron --rockport ankaas and jlaudio subs. cabling when not mentioned = transparent.

 

at present, with generic usb cable, cd much more dimensional.

 

tx tw

 

 

 

[Dennis Graves]

Yes, the bottom line big question is whether in fact ANY music server can sound as good as a state of the art CD based system, using a top quality transport. This is a "core discussion" that, frankly, seems to have been avoided on Computer Audiophile.

 

I have been told by technical people (I am not one) that 1) there are inherent physical limitations that preclude getting a really clean high frequency digital signal off a spinning CD and 2) transferring the digital information to a hard drive (preferably solid state) avoids those limitations. If true, and I rather expect it is, then CD based sound has been THE BIG LIE of high end audio, and the future should be computer audio.

 

Rather than spending $10,000 plus on a transport that may never resolve the basic problems of CD based systems, I built a CAPS2 system (actually, a techie friend built it for me). I am still doing comparative tests between CAPS2 and my Accustic Arts Drive One (MkII) transport. At this point the jury is still out, but my preliminary round of close comparative tests has indicated that, in a high resolution system, distortion in the CAPS2 system with JRiver Wasapi playback may be noticable enough that it might not be able to equal a high quality transport. My operating assumption is that Wasapi and JRiver allow processing a signal in a computer with virtually no distortion, so that the issue comes down to pure hardware. If this assumption is not true and, indeed, if JRiver is not the state of the art in music server software, my comparisons may be inconclusive.

 

Of course, if a system is not highly resolving, such differences probably are not noticeable. To place this in context, here is my system:

 

Magico V2 speakers(room size constraints preclude bigger speakers)

Stealth Dream speaker cables

Electrocompaniet 180 monoblock amps (Isoclean superfocus power cords)

Stealth Nano XLR interconnects

Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC (with Dynamic Design power cord)

Stealth Varidig Sextet XLR digital cable

Accustic Arts Drive One (Mk II) transport (with Dynamic Design power cord)

Berkeley Audio Design USB converter

CAPS2 music server, with Wireworld Platinum USB cable

Running Springs Maxim power conditioner with Kubala-Sosna Emotion power cord

Various platforms and footers (Marigo, Stillpoints, etc)

 

The Stealth cabling, especially the digital link and the speaker cables are extremely resolving -- tremendous detail and openness and clarity -- and these cables disclose distortion like nothing else. (While the Stealth provide great detail and accuracy,the sound is a bit on the cool side, with violins and flutes often a bit bright and forward. I am still searching for the ideal interconnects that will retain detail yet warm up and balance the tonal palette.)

 

A further, critical point on this discussion of The Big Question: people who do not attend symphony concerts and play symphonic music at home usually will focus on different audio issues than classical buffs. People who do not go to symphonies simply will not understand how violins and flutes should sound and appreciate how difficult it is to accurately reproduce them. Further, they will not understand that, in a good concert hall with a top orchestra, there is a richness, warmth and ambience that is very hard to reproduce and is not on the radar screen of jazz, rock and other listeners. In short, the requirements of classical buffs are different enough that discussions really ought to begin with disclosure of the type of music the listener seeks to accurately reproduce. (Incidentally, an informal survey during my 30+ years in high end audio leads me to this unfortunate conclusion: only a small percentage of those who manufacture and sell high end audio gear in this Country really know how classical music should sound because they rarely, if ever, see the inside of a symphony hall. In my view, this is a fundamental, profound problem in the industry.)

 

Will followup on this "ultimate issue" of music server vs transport, but would welcome thoughtful input from others.

 

Dennis

 

[barrows]

Respectfully:

 

"Yes, the bottom line big question is whether in fact ANY music server can sound as good as a state of the art CD based system, using a top quality transport. This is a "core discussion" that, frankly, seems to have been avoided on Computer Audiophile."

 

The above issue has been discussed numerous times at this site. The conclusion was reached long ago that properly implemented hard drive based audio playback does out perform traditional optical disk transports and players. I say traditional, because "memory players" like the PS Audio PerfectWave Transport, and Nova Physics Memory Player have the technical potential to equal the best computer based transports, because they work on the same pricipals.

 

Your point on music listening experience is somewhat off the mark though, if only in detail. To try and break down music listening experience into a dichotomy between symphonic music in the concert hall, and everything else, is overly simplistic at best. Every music listening experience and venue sounds different: a string quartet playing in a church, and unamplified jazz trio playing at a small club, an amplified jazz quintet playing in a theater, an outddor rock festival, an outdoor symphonic venue with an amplified orchestra. An amplified rock band playing in a small club. There are an infinite amount of variables in music listening experiences, none of which are more intrinsically relevant to high fidelity playback than another.

The best systems will do a reasonable job recreating all of these types of listening experiences, but no system will ever actually recreate the actual experience, or even come close. When people report their results, it is good that they mention the music types used, and that they have a vocabulary which can adequately express what they are talking about.

I would take issue with your notion that only symphonic music can express the ability of the system to recreate the ambience of the concert hall though (and yes, I have heard symphonic music in the concert hall). I have a live recording of the rock band King Crimson, playing at the Amsterdam Concertbegouw, and believe me, the ambience of the hall is well represented in this recording. I would say it is rare for a live rock recording to reveal these kinds of details, my point is to express that it is not impossible.

 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Dennis - It may be best to create a new forum topic to discuss this. Sure it's been discussed before, but another round won't hurt :~)

 

FYI - The creators of your speakers, DAC, and USB to S/PDIF converter, all wonderful pieces by the way, designed the products using well configured music servers. Each manufacturer is well acquainted with Symphony halls and the live music experience.

 

Edit: One more item of critical importance. You mention the word "good" to describe the sound. As in "sound as good" when comparing CD transports to computer based playback. This will be difference for every user as good is subjective and we all like slightly different things.