Proper Grounding a system

[Daudio]

25 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/grounding-devices-2/

 

There is a 'graph' half way down the page that is the most ridiculous, pure marketing, piece of info-trash, I think I've ever seen 

[89reksal]

Ah yes... Now I remember why I don't post anymore.

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, jabbr said:

The phrase "'Noise' in ground are positive charged." does not itself make sense according to the common definitions of "noise" "ground" and "charge". Are you using a different language? If so, can you try and translate that to the English definitions we are using, along with the common Physics definitions we are using?

 

As I posted earlier "Noises" are a very missused term, by me as well in lack of better words. What I am referring to is EMI/RFI & AC/DC currents and voltages in shieldings, chassis and equipments ground planes which AFAIK the grounding boxes are suppose to deal with.

 

Grounding boxes is actually a very interesting subject. Partly because it is mysterious but mostly because it really works IRL. It is really sad that people try to make an interesting thread like this into a mine field instead of trying to help or enlight people with knowledge, real enthusiasm and true interest. I do not count you in here jabbr. I know that you know your things. It reminds me of the countless USB or Ethernet discussions that I hoped was history by now. Well, I was wrong. They just ended up here.

[jabbr]

22 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

As I posted earlier "Noises" are a very missused term, by me as well in lack of better words. What I am referring to is EMI/RFI & AC/DC currents and voltages in shieldings, chassis and equipments ground planes which AFAIK the grounding boxes are suppose to deal with.

 

Grounding boxes is actually a very interesting subject. Partly because it is mysterious but mostly because it really works IRL. It is really sad that people try to make an interesting thread like this into a mine field instead of trying to help or enlight people with knowledge, real enthusiasm and true interest. I do not count you in here jabbr. I know that you know your things. It reminds me of the countless USB or Ethernet discussions that I hoped was history by now. Well, I was wrong. They just ended up here.

Yeah there may be many misconceptions. That's why we need to try and use common language. "Noise" hmm maybe just everything not in the desired "signal". So taking with your above definition: you are describing noise across the frequency spectrum and not in the signal path. 

 

One of the best points I've heard here is that the signal ground need not refer to earth ground per se, rather a 0V common reference point.

 

The other thing that we are talking about is a star grounding scheme. The idea is to minimize ground loops. Ground loops and leakage currents are a big problem and occur because there are impedances and thus voltage differences across the ground system. Star is a way to create a low impedance channel to the common reference point.

 

So the thread is provocatively titled and implies that a "proper" grounding system includes a box that's got pixie dust in it that does something special to electrons ... indeed may be an interesting subject but too much hand waving and use of arguments that don't seem to conform to the very very well established physics of electrical circuits.

 

I do think this is an interesting topic, and there may be some interesting filtering going on. There's waaaaay too much voodoo and hand waving put out by the vendors, and for me, at least, this is going to need to be explained using good old fashioned Physics of Electricity and Magnetism

[pkane2001]

17 minutes ago, Cornan said:

Grounding boxes is actually a very interesting subject. Partly because it is mysterious but mostly because it really works IRL.

 

The problem is that there is no electrical or mechanical explanation provided for how these devices work.

 

The only two functions I can see that such an open circuit can perform are to act as a receiving or a broadcasting antenna.

 

Certainly receiving RFI is not a good thing, as that just injects additional noise into the device.

 

So, is it that it's broadcasting noise out as radio waves that makes this work? At least that will convert some of the noise energy into RFI. Even if this is the explanation,  I'd think that there are much better, more effective (and cheaper) ways to set up an antenna than using a wooden box with some rocks or dirt in it. 

 

 

[Speedskater]

Continuing on about 'grounds'. The are several correct usages for the word 'ground' associated with hi-fi- systems.

Some of them are:

a] Protective Earth/Safety Ground in the AC power system.

b] Mother earth mostly for high voltage safety.

c] Audio circuit common.

d] DC supply common.

e] Digital common.

f] Chassis.

g] Shield.

While there is often continuity between these different grounds, each has it's own functions.

 

Neither 'grounding boxes' nor EarthSide devices perform any of these functions.

 

[Speedskater]

16 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

The only two functions I can see that such an open circuit can perform are to act as a receiving or a broadcasting antenna.

Correct, because hi-fi components sometimes have incorrectly wired RCA & XLR chassis connectors, the wires to the grounding boxes can act as noise/interference antennas.

[marce]

14 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

As I posted earlier "Noises" are a very missused term, by me as well in lack of better words. What I am referring to is EMI/RFI & AC/DC currents and voltages in shieldings, chassis and equipments ground planes which AFAIK the grounding boxes are suppose to deal with.

 

Grounding boxes is actually a very interesting subject. Partly because it is mysterious

Again this link, shows the basics, its not mysterious at all, its been well studied since Maxwell, not5 long after Heaviside created the theory's that are the basic for high speed design today (The telegrapher's equations). 

http://sites.ieee.org/ctx-emcs/files/2010/09/Archambeault-Ground-Myth.pdf

All I have done is post links and references to some of the many people who research this subject (EMC/signal integrity), the likes of Henry Ott, his book Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering is one of the go-to references for this sort of thing. So its not mysterious, its just part of electronic and system design, many of us face these problems everyday, that's why there is such a vast wealth of real information out there on EMC design and problem solving.

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, marce said:

All I have done is post links and references to some of the many people who research this subject (EMC/signal integrity), the likes of Henry Ott, his book Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering is one of the go-to references for this sort of thing.

 

No, it is not all you have done!

 

Quote

Basically what you have is a wire poked in a box of muck, crystals, BS; whatever you want to put in the box will have exactly the same effect, which is at worst case the wire acting as an antenna and picking up noise, at best nothing. Adding one of these boxes goes against all EMC guidelines and is just someone making money out of the misplaced belief that the Ground, earth etc is a big sink for noise etc.

 

Not very educational! 

 

1 hour ago, marce said:

Again this link, shows the basics, its not mysterious at all, its been well studied since Maxwell, not5 long after Heaviside created the theory's that are the basic for high speed design today (The telegrapher's equations). 

http://sites.ieee.org/ctx-emcs/files/2010/09/Archambeault-Ground-Myth.pdf

 

Good link, but it tells us nothing about what this thread is all about ie. grounding boxes/ground purifiers/ground enhancers/dirt boxes/shit boxes or whatever you like to call them. If they are not so mysterious to you I suggest you start explaining how you think they work or give us real life imprerssions about them instead of just posting pointless assumptions and links about Maxwell & Co which does´nt answer any questions about the actual boxes.

[marce]

They don't work and cant work as described in the marketing BS. Sticking a wire (unterminated ) out of a some electronics is rather silly,  

Quote

instead of just posting pointless assumptions and links about Maxwell & Co which does´nt answer any questions about the actual boxes.

This really does show your lack of understanding in all this... Page 24 of that particular link explains it ALL in relationship to these boxes (22 and 23 are also relevant), whilst the Henry Ott myths also shed a lot of light.

Maybe the designer of this box could give us an explanation... preferably one that obeys know physics.

These boxes wont sink any noise as it is a single wire that goes no where, noise etc. is an EMC problem, put up plenty of references and links that again show this is a daft idea. There is no proof to be found to support these boxes, so I don't expect any to appear, for those with a high frequency scope, stick a bit of wire on its input and have a look...

[Speedskater]

3 hours ago, Cornan said:

Not very educational! 

..............................

Good link, but it tells us nothing about what this thread is all about ie. grounding boxes/ground purifiers/ground enhancers/dirt boxes/shit boxes or whatever you like to call them. If they are not so mysterious to you I suggest you start explaining how you think they work or give us real life imprerssions about them instead of just posting pointless assumptions and links about Maxwell & Co which does´nt answer any questions about the actual boxes.

Maxwell, Heaviside, Ohm, Kirchhoff and others explain how real electricity works.  Why doesn't a proponent of grounding boxes explain how they work?

 

[pkane2001]

30 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Why doesn't a proponent of grounding boxes explain how they work?

 

They do! Here's a 'detailed' description:

 

Quote

The Audio Sensibility Grounding Devices act as a sink to absorb excess negative charge in the component ground plane.

 

Besides all the obvious violations of laws of Physics, this tells me nothing as to why this might be a good thing.

 

[Daudio]

4 hours ago, Cornan said:

what this thread is all about ie. grounding boxes/ground purifiers/ground enhancers/dirt boxes/shit boxes or whatever you like to call them... instead of just posting... which doesn't answer any questions about the actual boxes.

 

I agree that this thread should be looking deeper into the devices the OP posted about. 

 

There are enough listening reports to indicate something is going on with them, but what that 'something' actually is, remains the question that bugs me, and what I'd like to see this thread address. Attempts at answering that question would benefit all (well most...) of us.

 

And please, let's not let the thread devolve into just another boring, useless, objective/subjective slug-fest !

 

[marce]

There has been no empirical data wot-soever, casual listening test do not prove anything they are just anecdotal evidence. If there are any differences heard it is not due to noise reduction, possible noise being added due to external noise pick via the antenna that has been added.

As to objective/subjective, it has nothing to do with the argument, the main argument is about physics, it dose not matter what people hear or suspect they hear, we are broaching the subject of EMC and this is well studied with plenty of information of how to reduce noise within a system, proven methods of working.

As I stated earlier there are no other areas of electronics where this is done, none, no one hooks a box of dirt to some medical gear to reduce noise or any other sensitive piece of equipement. This and other devices like it are based on many peoples misplaced belief that earth is a sink for noise (I have put up two papers that disagree with this from eminent people in this area, there are many others). I have also asked for some proper information regarding how they are supposed to function based on known physics. Saying they absorb excess negative charge in the ground plane is just rubbish, noise can be negative or positive going in relation to a chosen reference plain, also charge? are we referring to static electricity here as ground plains in active electronic don't tend to charge up, this is why we plug ourselves in using an anti static wrist strap or similar before we handle sensitive electronics (all of them).

The posts I have put up are relevant education for those that don't understand EMC/Noise related coupling mechanisms to go away and learn some basics then they will have a better understanding of what is going on.

Personally these devices and similar snake products do not do the audio reproduction hobby any good whatsoever, they distract from the real issues, of which there are many and help perpetuate myths that just are not real.

 

[89reksal]

29 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

They do! Here's a 'detailed' description:

 

 

Besides all the obvious violations of laws of Physics, this tells me nothing as to why this might be a good thing.

 

Perhaps you missed the second sentence of that paragraph? The one that reads "For more explanation go here."? Where actually clicking on the "here" (which is commonly referred to as a link) takes you to this 54 page discussion:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/102180-groundside-electrons.html

 

As well, some may have missed the link linked to from one of the links in my original post linking to a 2,346 page discussion on the Entreq grounding:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?11995-Entreq-Tellus-grounding

 

Lots of reading between those two links that should give you some information. Also for $35.00 Canadian, with a 45 day money back guarantee, you could buy a pair of grounding devices from Audio Sensibility and actually try, risk free, for yourself whether there may be something to this. I realize trying something for yourselves instead of just posting about something you have zero experience with may be too much for some but I'd say $35.00, even without the money back guarantee, is a cheap way to dip your toes in.

 

[Daudio]

9 minutes ago, marce said:

There has been no empirical data wot-soever, casual listening test do not prove anything they are just anecdotal evidence.

 

Obviously you are not able to suspend dis-belief enough to look for any possible causes of this effect. Nor do you credit the existing listening reports. I've been an audiophile long enough to see crazy stuff like we see here to actually develop into some quite real in theory and equipment. Maybe this will, maybe it won't, but In think it deserves a chance, not a blanket dismissal.

 

So, I ask you to please bow out of this discussion If you can't try and dig deeper into the phenomena.  You have made your points and they are noted.

 

 

17 minutes ago, marce said:

As to objective/subjective, it has nothing to do with the argument, the main argument is about physics...

 

Just the kind of thing that polarizes, shuts down useful discussion, and leads to thread-irrelevance and then thread-death

 

Thanks, and Bye for now.

 

[michaelD]

On 5/17/2017 at 0:33 AM, Cornan said:

 

I beleive it means the QB8 is connected to a dedicated circuit and the grounding box is connected to the GND screw on the QB8. 

 

With that said I will leave you guys alone and come back when something interesting regarding grounding boxes or anything thread related turns up! ?

 

On 5/17/2017 at 0:33 AM, Cornan said:

 

I beleive it means the QB8 is connected to a dedicated circuit and the grounding box is connected to the GND screw on the QB8. 

 

With that said I will leave you guys alone and come back when something interesting regarding grounding boxes or anything thread related turns up! ?

Yes you are exactly right!

[pkane2001]

36 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

Perhaps you missed the second sentence of that paragraph? The one that reads "For more explanation go here."?

 

No, didn't miss it. What it takes you to is this:

http://www.audiosensibility.com/products/groundingdevices.htm#OriginOfDevices

 

This does not contain any explanation, at all. There is a link to the DYIAudio website which contains a ton of discussion by others. What's missing is a clear explanation by the manufacturer of the device of how it operates without violating laws of nature. Point me to that, please, preferably in less than a 2,346 page discussion thread.

 

[Cornan]

Here is the founder of Entreq´s own words about their products. If you read it carefully there is actually a lot of interesting information embedded. You´ll just need to filter out the good stuff!

 

http://www.entreqasia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Entreq-History.pdf

[Speedskater]

36 minutes ago, Daudio said:

Obviously you are not able to suspend dis-belief enough to look for any possible causes of this effect. Nor do you credit the existing listening reports. I've been an audiophile long enough to see crazy stuff like we see here to actually develop into some quite real in theory and equipment. Maybe this will, maybe it won't, but In think it deserves a chance, not a blanket dismissal.

So, I ask you to please bow out of this discussion If you can't try and dig deeper into the phenomena.  You have made your points and they are noted.

.........................................

Thanks, and Bye for now.

It would be better if you added information to the discussion rather than ignoring reality.

[Daudio]

Just now, Speedskater said:

rather than ignoring reality.

 

Which reality ?

 

[Speedskater]

I'm still interested in technical information in a coherent manor. Linking to a forum thread with hundreds or thousands of posts from many members is not at all helpful.

[Speedskater]

2 minutes ago, Daudio said:

Which reality ?

That would be almost two centuries of science and engineering reality.

[YashN]

2 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Maxwell, Heaviside, Ohm, Kirchhoff and others explain how real electricity works.  Why doesn't a proponent of grounding boxes explain how they work?

 

 

Which form of electricity?

[YashN]

8 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

That would be almost two centuries of science and engineering reality.

 

 You're not taught everything in class though.