ISO REGEN launch thread! (product web page up; photos, etc.)

[Jud]

40 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Both @Jud and @lmitche here received pairs of very early beta units where the only difference between them was that one used the USB 2.0 USB chip of the original REGEN, and the other version had the 3.1 chip we had already selected--partially for compatibility--from among the major brands.  The pieces they received we marked only as "M" and "G", and we told them nothing else.  Within moments of separately playing them, they both chose as sounding much better the lettered box that had the 3.1 hub chip.

 

Yes, and that confounded my expectations, because I thought "G," the one that was quite evidently better, just stood for "Good," while I thought "M" stood for "Mofo."

 

[Jud]

17 minutes ago, kalinka said:

Something crossed my mind just now

 

We all agree the regen makes pratically every system to sound better. More "weight" and better "clarity" are among the mentioned -by me as well- benefits.

 

So, all this improvement comes just from having a better USB signal? Or the regen has some sort of "sonic signature" that is responsible for what we are listening?

 

Sorry if this has been answered before, I'm kinda new around here and did not take place in the discussions about the original regen.

 

Can't of anything the Regen does that would cause something like that other than perhaps correct impedance matching, which would make any "sonic signature" the um, correct one.

[Jud]

Hi all:  I wanted to mention in the interest of full disclosure that as a perk for helping to test the ISO Regen, Alex very kindly will be sending me a production version gratis.  (I did not hesitate to give a fair evaluation, as Alex and John can tell you!)

 

So although I don't feel it's affected my view of the ISO Regen's impact on my system (what I've reported here matches what I told Alex and John about the sound privately), I thought it only fair to let anyone reading what I say here know this.

[Jud]

11 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Hi Jud,

 

Having been the other other lucky one to beta test the ISO Regen, I know you just sent your ISO Regen back to Alex for recycling.  So having used it for a year, I want to ask how your system sounds without it!

 

I can't answer this for myself as I voluntarily and reluctantly sent the G version back to John for testing six months ago after he blew up all his other prototype units.

 

I should also disclose I am gratefully receiving a free ISO Regen from Uptone.  Thanks to Alex and John.

 

I'm still enjoying the music a lot with the original Regen in the system, but sending back the test version of the ISO Regen was sadness.   Anxiously awaiting shipment of the production version along with everyone else!

[Jud]

38 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

I'm not UpTone, but vBus refers to the 5v power line from your computer to your DAC. This is used to power some DAC's, or for handshake between the devices, or not at all. I'm guessing that the red switch defeats the 5v power feed from the isoREGEN if your DAC doesn't need it. I'm sure that Alex C. will correct me if I am mistaken.

 

Now, please don't be offended, but I have to ask. Why would you string almost $1,500 worth of USB enhancement devices and extra cables between your computer and a $279 DAC? Wouldn't it make more sense just to invest in a better DAC and not have all that extra "stuff"?

 

Though these days (not with the chain you're referring to, with a 24/96 equalizer in front of it), it's slightly more understandable if you're doing your upsampling in software and don't necessarily need to pay someone for filter design in a DAC.

[Jud]

47 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

The issue here is not filter design or upsampling, but a good USB interface. Some people believe, wrongly, that modern DAC designers still have not figured out how to make that work.

 

It's the classic old "integrated vs. separates" question, isn't it?

[Jud]

9 hours ago, satfrat said:

I actually have a Paul Hynes power supply for the Empirical Off-Ramp 3,, HUGE audio difference from the SMPS wallwart. I like Meanwell PS's and I really think they alone are an upgrade from the normally supplied wallwarts. 

 

When I was working, money wasn't as much of an issue as it is when you're retired on a fixed income. I simply don't have the disposable income to spend on merry-go round component upgrades every 1-2 years as is the case of Empirical which has had 5 Off-Ramp upgrades for their customers to spend money on every other year or so. Just can't do it anymore so I need to pick & choose my purchase "wallet battles" and be happy til such time I can afford another wallet battle. But keeping up with yearly new technology component upgrades is no longer possible.

 

But thanks for the input! I'll keep it in mind.

 

Robin

 

Makes good sense.  In situations like this, where a product hasn't been released yet, I think it's probably best to wait until people can give you listening impressions in systems similar to yours, rather than working with hypotheticals.  I'm sure you know this too, but like all of us, you're anxious.

[Jud]

Not sure I can say this in a family forum, but: Foreplay?

 

If not that, to see how many Regens can dance on the head of Amir?

[Jud]

58 minutes ago, Superdad said:

A couple of days later they independently (without knowing the other's choice) both chose the version with the USB 3.1 hub chip as being the better sounding.

 

To use the well worn cliche, the difference was not subtle.

[Jud]

24 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Not interested in having a string of USB dongles daisy-chained between my source and DAC so wondered if the USPCB A>B did something similar to the VBus2?

 

There's no filtering in the USPCB.  Its job is just to be a USB connector (on which you can switch off the power if you don't need it).  The Regen (and now the ISO Regen) regenerates clean(er) bus power itself.

[Jud]

36 minutes ago, esmit said:

Please include a story about your wife/fiancée /significant other who is normally not interested in audio, but now immediately noticed a better sound ("as if a veil was lifted") ;-) ;-)

 

  It was definitely a heck of a lot better, though.  And both were better than the original Regen.

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, Middy said:

Its our first but we are still scared to death...

Baby Moses ...as I am still in-de-Nile....

Thanks though Alex...?

 

40+ friend of my wife's and his young spouse had three little ones in a few years and everyone told him he was crazy.  He was pretty scared too.  But years later, everyone's doing well (at least we haven't seen any shocking headlines in the local papers).

[Jud]

4 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Thanks for your clearly stated question @Tunepotato (how did you come up with THAT name?).

 

Ask his brother Juanpotato.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, Doak said:

Re: #1 - I have done this and it made a difference, though not for the better. 

 

49 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Please never put ANY device between the REGENs and your DAC (besides a connecting adapter or cable of course).  You want to preserve the signal integrity and impedance match that you paid for with the REGEN. 

 

Of course +1 to what Superdad says, and I agree with Doak - even at the source end, or, as AQ says you can do, in another USB port, I did not like what  I thought the Jitterbug was doing to the sound.

[Jud]

Just now, Superdad said:

Hey, I just started a new thread for ISO REGEN Listening Impressions and it has some pictures you gents will want to see!

By the way, @Jud and @lmitche: The embargo is now lifted and you are free to post what you have heard with ISO REGEN so far (they were beta testers and were sent final units as I was on my way to vacation on April 29th).

 

 

Busy as all heck right now (look who I'm talking to  ), but yes, when things calm down a bit I'd be happy to.

[Jud]

Sam, hope everything gets back to normal as easily as possible for you and your wife. (!)

[Jud]

20 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Does cascading IsoRegen help?

 

I cascaded the original Regens (green and amber) and liked that, but I only did it because Alex offered a large discount on the amber to those who had already purchased the green, so it was very little additional expense to have two.

 

I can also say one ISO is a lot better than the cascaded originals.

 

So you might get some additional benefit from better SI (though you wouldn't get more isolation), though I don't know how much, due to how good a single ISO is already.  Only you can decide whether that would be worthwhile to you at the price.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Hold on a second. What does it matter as long as the source is good enough so that data bits aren't getting flipped? Data bits getting flipped seems to be uncommon, based on what I read.

 

Why would a better source matter if the whole point of the ISO Regen is to completely isolate its input side from its output side AND to reclock and regenerate the USB data packets with near perfect signaling?

 

What would be different on the output side if the there were a better or worse source?

 

We buy this product because we have "less than the best source"!!

 

You know jitter doesn't flip bits (unless you have a *really* big problem) and leakage currents can be running around the system without flipping bits, right?  Digital systems, as you say, are designed to be very robust in the face of these sorts of things, but it doesn't mean something like electrical noise ceases to exist in the system as a whole.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Of course. Isn't the whole point of the ISO Regen to block all of that stuff? Here is a quote for the UpTone Audio web site:

 

The ISO REGEN creates a “moat” to isolate the power and signal grounds from computer/stream USB sources before your DAC.  This “moat” blocks leakage currents and other low level interference from the source. 

 

Are you and John saying there is no moat? Or are you saying it is a shallow moat and some of the bad stuff still gets through? I thought the grounds from the dirty and clean sides were completely isolated from each other unless the red switch block switch was in the up position. I thought the USB VBUS powered the input (dirty) side and the power supply plugged onto the ISO Regen powered the output (clean) side. The isolation chip was supposed to pass only data from the dirty side to the clean side.

 

If this isn't the case, what the heck is the case???

 

I wasn't speaking about the function of the ISO Regen, but about your previous post, which appeared to ask what the worth of the ISO Regen was if noise in your system wasn't so bad as to flip bits.

 

My answer was to say there's still, in a system without the ISO Regen, noise and jitter that make the use of the ISO Regen worthwhile.  The ISO Regen does a great job minimizing these problems.  Nothing is completely perfect, so as you've seen John doesn't say what is feeding the ISO Regen absolutely cannot matter.  But what he does say, and what I have found to be quite true, is that it very significantly improves the sound of a system.  For example, my system, with an 8-year-old laptop (that has a noisy SMPS) and a $375 DAC, sounds just great.

[Jud]

7 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

So, is the "moat" is kind of shallow and the isolation is incomplete? At least that is what I get from John's comments. Can Alex or John detail what gets through?

 

Not Alex or John and don't know for certain, but what I hypothesize:

 

- The moat is complete (you can see it on the board).  So leakage and ground currents are not getting through.

 

- The Regen (as opposed to the ISO) part of the circuit greatly improves signal integrity (reclocking, and removing any electrical noise generated by jittery signals entering the IR's USB PHY).

 

- "Improves greatly" does not mean "eliminates absolutely and completely," because no reclocking is perfect.  So *maybe* you might be able to tell the difference between a very good and very bad source, maybe not.

 

Anyway, that's my speculation.

[Jud]

John, you'll recall the noise level from the "warble" in my system was reduced when I added a Baaske Ethernet iso transformer.  Perhaps then in at least some (rare, anomalous?) situations, extra isolation beyond what's built in to Ethernet already may help.

[Jud]

That progression - from puzzling, intermittent phenomenon to hypotheses to measurement to conclusion to recommended solutions - was fascinating.

 

I understand it's just what you do, but it was great to read about it. 

[Jud]

16 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

And great to see you back posting Jud!  Must mean that most of the boxes in your new house are unpacked, right?  

 

Thanks! Yep, we are pretty much "open for business." (Although we're still sufficiently occupied with house stuff that I don't have quite the spare time I did before the move. And my old video card no longer works with Linux, not even the shell, so it will likely not be until I build a new machine that I run Linux and HQPlayer again.)