computer audiophile on the cheap Class D amplifiers, can a chip sound as good as a regular amplifier?

[Supperconductor]

On 1/22/2018 at 10:11 AM, GUTB said:

I can write a page of text explaining why class D sucks, but I've recently decided to shed all biases and to that end I have a XLS 2502 coming in. I will be comparing it to my $5,500 class A/B monoblocks.

 

I would expect a pretty big difference between any two components given a cost difference of 10X.

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, Supperconductor said:

 

I would expect a pretty big difference between any two components given a cost difference of 10X.

 

You would expect that. However, I'm constantly being told that cost does not equate to quality. I asked for recommendations for a consumer-grade product that competes with the high end and I was strongly recommended the Crown, so I went for it. It's in my system now. It's only about 24 hours in so I can't draw any conclusions until after it becomes clear burn in won't change the sound. What strikes me so far about the 2502 are two things:

 

1. Very low resolution. My speakers, the Frtiz Carbon VII SEs are not very resolving to begin with, but the the Crown takes them to a new low. 

 

2. Timbre is incorrect. Voices, especially female voices, don't sound right. Some instruments don't sound right.

 

Again, I'll have to wait and see how things develop. 

[sandyk]

On ‎15‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 1:30 PM, esldude said:

Of course the key improvement by Bruno Putzeys is to include the load as part of the filter for the output.  This lets the load not effect the response and phase of the speaker so much. 

 

Just what we all need, more radiated crap from speaker leads to get into other sensitive areas in close proximity !

 Or is he also recommending screened speaker leads too ?

[STC]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

You would expect that. However, I'm constantly being told that cost does not equate to quality. I asked for recommendations for a consumer-grade product that competes with the high end and I was strongly recommended the Crown, so I went for it. It's in my system now. It's only about 24 hours in so I can't draw any conclusions until after it becomes clear burn in won't change the sound. What strikes me so far about the 2502 are two things:

 

1. Very low resolution. My speakers, the Frtiz Carbon VII SEs are not very resolving to begin with, but the the Crown takes them to a new low. 

 

2. Timbre is incorrect. Voices, especially female voices, don't sound right. Some instruments don't sound right.

 

Again, I'll have to wait and see how things develop. 

 

Unlike the high end amps that can sound very good straight from the box, Crown  needs about 600hours to burn in.  And gradually improve after the 1000th hour.  

[GUTB]

31 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Unlike the high end amps that can sound very good straight from the box, Crown  needs about 600hours to burn in.  And gradually improve after the 1000th hour.  

 

I was afraid of an ultra long burn-in...oh well. I'll set up a long-term burn-in setup so I can free up my poor system which is currently unlistenable.

[elcorso]

55 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Unlike the high end amps that can sound very good straight from the box, Crown  needs about 600hours to burn in.  And gradually improve after the 1000th hour.  

 

What brand and type of capacitors have the Crowns that needs a lengthly burn in?

 

Roch

[STC]

7 minutes ago, elcorso said:

 

What brand and type of capacitors have the Crowns that needs a lengthly burn in?

 

Roch

 

LOL...didn't you see the

[elcorso]

5 minutes ago, STC said:

 

LOL...didn't you see the

 

I'm sorry, need to change my reading glasses (but I have an appointment with the optometrist next week) 

 

Roch

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, STC said:

 

Unlike the high end amps that can sound very good straight from the box, Crown  needs about 600hours to burn in.  And gradually improve after the 1000th hour.  

 

What could possibly account for that?  Why would this brand of amps take longer to run-in than others?  

[elcorso]

2 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

What could possibly account for that?  Why would this brand of amps take longer to run-in than others?  

 

They use Tempranillo wine inside the caps (instead of oil) 

 

Roch

[GUTB]

59 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

What could possibly account for that?  Why would this brand of amps take longer to run-in than others?  

 

Actually class D has a reputation for needing very long burn-ins. When I was trying out the D-Sonic (Pascal) I noticed that sound would swing back and forth between acceptable and awful during the burn in process, a phenomena which turned out to be well-known with class D. During the "good" phase of the D-Sonic’s performance, I particularly liked its resolution, drive and control of complex information — I don’t recall being particularly offended by the timbre — but the destruction of the soundstage was a deal-breaker.

 

The Crown XLS was strongly recommended to me and it is very well regarded amongst the lower end of audiophilia. I’m constantly being told how class D doesn’t suck. So I ditched my biases and picked up the latest and greatest of the XLS Drivecore 2 amps. Out of the box it’s pretty bad and I doubt anyone serious about audio would enjoy it, let alone compete with the high end in any way — so let’s give it a chance to burn in. If it sucks then it can go back to Amazon.

[STC]

4 minutes ago, GUTB said:

The Crown XLS was strongly recommended to me and it is very well regarded amongst the lower end of audiophilia.

 

Why not ask the guy who strongly recommended the XLS whether 2Vrms suitable for 1.2V input of CrownXLS.? or ask the guy who strongly recommended you the crown XLS why XLS2502 why you need so much of power for a speakers that the max it could take only 150W? Can you turn you volume control to 75% of the highest value? 

 

Btw, is Lower end of audiophilia means someone's system priced lower than yours? Am I lower end or higher than you end? Will US$14600 speakers alone (bought brand new) put me higher than you?

 

 

[GUTB]

17 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Why not ask the guy who strongly recommended the XLS whether 2Vrms suitable for 1.2V input of CrownXLS.? or ask the guy who strongly recommended you the crown XLS why XLS2502 why you need so much of power for a speakers that the max it could take only 150W? Can you turn you volume control to 75% of the highest value? 

 

Btw, is Lower end of audiophilia means someone's system priced lower than yours? Am I lower end or higher than you end? Will US$14600 speakers alone (bought brand new) put me higher than you?

 

 

 

I don’t think the input sensitivity mismatch  is going to make much of a difference at the levels we’re talking about.

 

Lower end means just that. Your speakers by themselves may not mean you’re higher than me, but it would be one indication that you are. 

[gstew]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

Actually class D has a reputation for needing very long burn-ins. When I was trying out the D-Sonic (Pascal) I noticed that sound would swing back and forth between acceptable and awful during the burn in process, a phenomena which turned out to be well-known with class D. During the "good" phase of the D-Sonic’s performance, I particularly liked its resolution, drive and control of complex information — I don’t recall being particularly offended by the timbre — but the destruction of the soundstage was a deal-breaker.

 

The Crown XLS was strongly recommended to me and it is very well regarded amongst the lower end of audiophilia. I’m constantly being told how class D doesn’t suck. So I ditched my biases and picked up the latest and greatest of the XLS Drivecore 2 amps. Out of the box it’s pretty bad and I doubt anyone serious about audio would enjoy it, let alone compete with the high end in any way — so let’s give it a chance to burn in. If it sucks then it can go back to Amazon.

My Hypex NC400/SMPS600 monoblocks also had a long burn-in... 3 months as I remember. Even then, I needed to do some additional tweaking & modifications to get them to where I liked them.

 

Even odder is that they take 5 hours (to my ears and in my systems) to warm up. Pretty much all of the other gear I have or have owned take 1/2-1 hour to warm up. But the NC400s finally settle after 5. 

 

Still puzzled by this.

 

Greg in Mississippi

[STC]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

I don’t think the input sensitivity mismatch  is going to make much of a difference at the levels we’re talking about.

 

So at what level it would make a difference?

 

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

Your speakers by themselves may not mean you’re higher than me

 

If you say so.

[bigbob]

13 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

I don’t think the input sensitivity mismatch  is going to make much of a difference at the levels we’re talking about.

 

Lower end means just that. Your speakers by themselves may not mean you’re higher than me, but it would be one indication that you are. 

 

 

As Editor of Computer Audiophile on the Cheap, I accept being in the lowest of the lower end, with the exception of my speaker wires. I doubt if anyone would consider Nordost Valhalla ribbons to be either low end or cheap--but since they came to for free, one must ponder who is "higher" or "lower" on your continuum. Free beats the best discount.

The problem @GUTB is not what you can afford, as much as how well it reproduces Hi-Fidelity audio to the speakers you have.

My large Advents were both given an outstanding critique by J. Gordon Holt back in 1971, and Harry Pearson extolled their virtue: "Not very long ago, a long-time audio buddy gave me a chance to hear his Double Advent setup (and in his garage!). The experience in a sense just about took my breath away: The speakers, even in that primitive setting, were magnificent! They remained as uncolored and neutral as ever, exceeding too many of today’s so-called “super” systems. I had, if the truth is told, forgotten (audibly) just how very special this doubling up [stacking a pair atop another pair] of Henry Kloss’ last great speaker was and remains. Wished I had had the sense to hold on to the pair I bought (back when, actually in 1972, just before I started Issue One of this rag). The Advents weren’t then entirely trouble-free thanks to mechanical problems with the original tweeters. Seen in today’s light, aside from an airy top end, the only thing missing was its ability to recreate a wide and dimensional soundstage. If you can grab a pair in good condition, and they are out there, be smarter than me." --Harry Pearson http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-12-most-significant-loudspeakers-of-all-time/

 

Maybe we need to listen to the professional critiques as published by Stereophile and The Absolute Sound, and let them tell us what is "Good" and "High-end". Your obvious bias against Class D permeates this thread and discussion. I am sure that Amazon will be glad to refund the paltry sum you paid.

[GUTB]

9 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

 

As Editor of Computer Audiophile on the Cheap, I accept being in the lowest of the lower end, with the exception of my speaker wires. I doubt if anyone would consider Nordost Valhalla ribbons to be either low end or cheap--but since they came to for free, one must ponder who is "higher" or "lower" on your continuum. Free beats the best discount.

The problem @GUTB is not what you can afford, as much as how well it reproduces Hi-Fidelity audio to the speakers you have.

My large Advents were both given an outstanding critique by J. Gordon Holt back in 1971, and Harry Pearson extolled their virtue: "Not very long ago, a long-time audio buddy gave me a chance to hear his Double Advent setup (and in his garage!). The experience in a sense just about took my breath away: The speakers, even in that primitive setting, were magnificent! They remained as uncolored and neutral as ever, exceeding too many of today’s so-called “super” systems. I had, if the truth is told, forgotten (audibly) just how very special this doubling up [stacking a pair atop another pair] of Henry Kloss’ last great speaker was and remains. Wished I had had the sense to hold on to the pair I bought (back when, actually in 1972, just before I started Issue One of this rag). The Advents weren’t then entirely trouble-free thanks to mechanical problems with the original tweeters. Seen in today’s light, aside from an airy top end, the only thing missing was its ability to recreate a wide and dimensional soundstage. If you can grab a pair in good condition, and they are out there, be smarter than me." --Harry Pearson http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-12-most-significant-loudspeakers-of-all-time/

 

Maybe we need to listen to the professional critiques as published by Stereophile and The Absolute Sound, and let them tell us what is "Good" and "High-end". Your obvious bias against Class D permeates this thread and discussion. I am sure that Amazon will be glad to refund the paltry sum you paid.

 

We're talking about the sound, not the price. Price gets pulled into it only because higher price means higher quality in general.

 

My bias against class D was born from a combination of experience with various class D systems in my audiophile life and knowledge of how class D works. As I've said, I'm an audiophile, and I care about sound more than about my ego, so if I constantly get people telling me that class D is fine and here is a cheap class D amp that competes with the high end, eventually I was going to discard my bias and give it a shot.

 

I realize that I'm pitting a sub-$500 amp against an amp that costs mores than 10x as much, and a very capable amp at that price to boot. Common sense says there should be no comparison. However common sense is often at odds with reality in audiophilia so why not try it out?

 

People tend to get extremely defensive when faced with class D being garbage, but I'm the one getting rid of my biases and giving the technology a second chance.

[bigbob]

4 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

People tend to get extremely defensive when faced with class D being garbage, but I'm the one getting rid of my biases and giving the technology a second chance.

 

 

As the author of this OP, I am guilty of posting a question of whether a Class D chip amplifier could be as good as a conventional Class A, or AB amplifier. Now 14 pages of discussion later, we are down to a $500 Crown PA amp compared to a $5000 amplifier.

 

I long ago conceded that the $50 Nobsound that bought for a test, would be a wonderful amp for a garage or beside the swimming pool, but certainly not acceptable as a home 'main amplifier'.

I am not defensive about a $50 amplifier based upon a chip. As I recall, this 14-pages of discussion--like is so often the case in Audiophile forums-- boiled down to the phenomena of comparing the size of each writer's  "nuclear button". 

I do hope that the widespread acceptance of Class-D amplifiers for musical performance will someday result in an "Audiophile" class Class-D system. Some think this has been achieved, and others want to argue the point. And so it goes...

[bigbob]

"It seems that Class-D amplifiers have caught on with the PA systems, where 90% efficiency and lightweight are a consideration. Yamaha is building them, which makes me wonder what the Grateful Dead's "Wall of Sound" would have been like with Class D amplifiers. They could have cut the number of semi-tractor-trailers from three to one during the 1974 tour. "  From the OP, in April, of 2017.

[bigbob]

Ecclesiastes 1:9 New International Version (NIV)

9 "What has been will be again,
    what has been done will be done again;
    there is nothing new under the sun."

 

In the world of Audiophilia, we think something new and more expensive therefore must "better". Different does not necessarily mean better. Sometimes different is better and sometimes it is not.

 

If a gain amplifier came on the market, and it sounded better than anything on the market, would it be dismissed if it cost 10 times less than the current 'State of the Art'?

[Alan B]

"If a gain amplifier came on the market, and it sounded better than anything on the market, would it be dismissed if it cost 10 times less than the current 'State of the Art'?"

 

My guess is 'yes', as there wouldn't be enough profit in the amp unless they could find a $2,000 case to hold it.

[GUTB]

10 minutes ago, Alan B said:

"If a gain amplifier came on the market, and it sounded better than anything on the market, would it be dismissed if it cost 10 times less than the current 'State of the Art'?"

 

My guess is 'yes', as there wouldn't be enough profit in the amp unless they could find a $2,000 case to hold it.

 

Have you heard high end sound?

[Alan B]

6 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Have you heard high end sound?

 

Yes, and I don't need a lecture from you.  I have read enough of your posts in these forums to know where you are coming from.  There is WAY more involved that just opening one's wallet to buy a more expensive piece of equipment.  You know what I mean concerning the room and the interactions where the system is installed.

[GUTB]

13 minutes ago, Alan B said:

 

Yes, and I don't need a lecture from you.  I have read enough of your posts in these forums to know where you are coming from.  There is WAY more involved that just opening one's wallet to buy a more expensive piece of equipment.  You know what I mean concerning the room and the interactions where the system is installed.

 

How would you compare the high end products you’ve listened to with the lower-end / affordable gear?

[bigbob]

15 minutes ago, Alan B said:

 

Yes, and I don't need a lecture from you.  I have read enough of your posts in these forums to know where you are coming from.  There is WAY more involved that just opening one's wallet to buy a more expensive piece of equipment.  You know what I mean concerning the room and the interactions where the system is installed.

 

An Audiophile will argue the Minutiae Ad nauseam