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Class D amplifiers, can a chip sound as good as a regular amplifier?


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I really don't understand any of this- what exactly is a class D amp vs an A,B,C one and what am I using in my  'kit'-15+yr old Yamaha rx-v2500,Outlaw ICBM,Yamaha natural sound dvd-a,sacd,cd dvd-c750 changer, Schiit Gungnir pre mult-bit,ME2,Schiit FULLA,AQ DF RED. it all still sounds wonderful to me-am I really missing out on something? OR is it really the 'players' I now use-TIDAL hifi MQA/non-MQA,A+3,Qobuz hifi,ROON and not the 'kit'?

bobbmd

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1 hour ago, bobbmd said:

I really don't understand any of this- what exactly is a class D amp vs an A,B,C one and what am I using in my  'kit'-15+yr old Yamaha rx-v2500,Outlaw ICBM,Yamaha natural sound dvd-a,sacd,cd dvd-c750 changer, Schiit Gungnir pre mult-bit,ME2,Schiit FULLA,AQ DF RED. it all still sounds wonderful to me-am I really missing out on something? OR is it really the 'players' I now use-TIDAL hifi MQA/non-MQA,A+3,Qobuz hifi,ROON and not the 'kit'?

bobbmd

 

Don't worry about it, just use Keats' method:

 

"'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,' – that is all / Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know"

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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  • 8 months later...

Hi.

My idea is to connect my iPhone with a pair of speakers KEF C10 (late 80s! - 60W / 8 ohm) in order to play FLAC files (usually Tidal 16bit/44.1 kHz but also Hires files 24 bit).

I use a Dragonfly red as DAC so I want to connect via 3.5mm jack (no bluetooth etc.). Wich amplifier would you recommend? (no more than 100 $ but cheaper is better).

Tx.

 

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3 hours ago, Donzauker said:

Hi.

My idea is to connect my iPhone with a pair of speakers KEF C10 (late 80s! - 60W / 8 ohm) in order to play FLAC files (usually Tidal 16bit/44.1 kHz but also Hires files 24 bit).

I use a Dragonfly red as DAC so I want to connect via 3.5mm jack (no bluetooth etc.). Wich amplifier would you recommend? (no more than 100 $ but cheaper is better).

Tx.

 

https://www.parts-express.com/lepai-lp7498e-200w-class-d-stereo-amplifier-with-bluetooth-aptx-and-power-supply--310-298

 

Don't believe the power rating because it is at 10% thd and standard ratings are at 1%.  

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My short-lived experience with the $50 Class D amplifiers that exploit chips like TPA3116D2 was that it was adequate for a system in your garage, or maybe poolside (and there are plenty of options for $50). No bass, and sounded "Tinny".

My recommendation as Editor of "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" is to find a piece of Vintage electronics on eBay, Craigslist, etc. in that same price range, and enjoy the quality sound of a traditional AB amplifier.

There are a butt-load of good, used receivers--especially like the Denon AVR-2805 for around $100 and they were $1,000 rigs when they were brand new.

Class D amps which you read about that are true audiophile amps,  have filters and circuits which get the goodie out of those chips. If you spend $50, you WILL get what you pay for, and that will be disappointed unless your entire music library is low-res MP3s. Even if a used Vintage piece needs work, find a local technician, and pay to have it cleaned out, re-capped, as needed--and it will serve you for many years.

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On 5/12/2017 at 6:59 AM, bobbmd said:

I really don't understand any of this- what exactly is a class D amp vs an A,B,C one and what am I using in my  'kit'-15+yr old Yamaha rx-v2500,Outlaw ICBM,Yamaha natural sound dvd-a,sacd,cd dvd-c750 changer, Schiit Gungnir pre mult-bit,ME2,Schiit FULLA,AQ DF RED. it all still sounds wonderful to me-am I really missing out on something? OR is it really the 'players' I now use-TIDAL hifi MQA/non-MQA,A+3,Qobuz hifi,ROON and not the 'kit'?

bobbmd

 

A class D amplifier, generally speaking, refers to an amplification stage comprised of a single chip like TPA3116D2. They sell anywhere from $50, from China to custom builds like Flea Watt for about $400 (which means much better components used in the design)  There are some true Audiophile Class-D amps in the thousands of dollars. Class D runs cool and doesn't draw much power (they can be powered by a 12v wall-wart) Class A is at full potential at all times--and this class is generally Tubes. Regular receivers are typically Class AB, meaning they run as needed by the music, and are solid state. It is my opinion, that Class D is not quite "there" yet. As Editor of "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" I have said that a $50 Class D amp and a pair of $50 speakers will work great in the garage, or beside the pool, but it will be a great disappointment, compared to a used 1990's era receiver you could find on eBay or Craigslist.

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8 hours ago, bigbob said:

As Editor of "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" I have said that a $50 Class D amp and a pair of $50 speakers will work great in the garage, or beside the pool, but it will be a great disappointment, compared to a used 1990's era receiver you could find on eBay or Craigslist.

 

I use electrostatics SoundLab with Class D Crown XLS2000. It got better highs compared to 250Watter per channel Classe Audio. I have conducted blind tests with others and no one could reliabily pick Classe during the DBT. BUT there were differences between the two amps.

 

To anyone interested I have 24/96 recording and a compressed Youtube.

 

 

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16 hours ago, STC said:

 

I use electrostatics SoundLab with Class D Crown XLS2000. It got better highs compared to 250Watter per channel Classe Audio. I have conducted blind tests with others and no one could reliably pick Classe during the DBT. BUT there were differences between the two amps.

 

To anyone interested I have 24/96 recording and a compressed Youtube.

 

 

 

 

"Crown's XLS Series amplifiers define the standard for portable PA systems with unmatched performance, technology and affordability. Its advantageous flexibility includes multiple inputs so you can plug in anything and play anywhere, along with several system setup configurations. The integrated crossovers and switch-mode power supply produce superior sound, and Peakx™ limiters protect your speakers. Weighing less than 12 pounds, compared to 40 pounds for its competitors, it's much easier to set up and move from show to show. Simply put, the XLS is most reliable, versatile, efficient amp available today."

 

I would certainly expect better performance from a Crown PA amp, compared to the Nobsound for $50 . Crown has always made great amps, and Class D is much lighter.

 

Not to be too repetitive, but this entire thread was started by questioning if there had been Class D amps back in 1974, if the Grateful Dead would have needed three tractor trailers to haul the "The Wall of Sound" around on tour.

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16 hours ago, STC said:

 

I use electrostatics SoundLab with Class D Crown XLS2000. It got better highs compared to 250Watter per channel Classe Audio. I have conducted blind tests with others and no one could reliabily pick Classe during the DBT. BUT there were differences between the two amps.

 

To anyone interested I have 24/96 recording and a compressed Youtube.

 

 

 

Great work man! Sounds great! I also run a Crown XLS 1502 on a pair of JBL double 15" bass bins in my biamped system. They replaced a Nelson Pass Class A amp when I blew it up (had it since 1991) and I am really impressed with the sound quality. I would never have believed it from a relatively inexpensive Class D amp...

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On 14/1/2018 at 6:26 PM, bigbob said:

My short-lived experience with the $50 Class D amplifiers that exploit chips like TPA3116D2 was that it was adequate for a system in your garage, or maybe poolside (and there are plenty of options for $50). No bass, and sounded "Tinny".

My recommendation as Editor of "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap" is to find a piece of Vintage electronics on eBay, Craigslist, etc. in that same price range, and enjoy the quality sound of a traditional AB amplifier.

There are a butt-load of good, used receivers--especially like the Denon AVR-2805 for around $100 and they were $1,000 rigs when they were brand new.

Class D amps which you read about that are true audiophile amps,  have filters and circuits which get the goodie out of those chips. If you spend $50, you WILL get what you pay for, and that will be disappointed unless your entire music library is low-res MP3s. Even if a used Vintage piece needs work, find a local technician, and pay to have it cleaned out, re-capped, as needed--and it will serve you for many years.

 

Hi Bigbob.

Following your hint I recovered from a closet my old Yamaha A-07 (dated 1984 if my mind doesn't fail...).

Tomorrow I will have in my hand the 3.5mm jack / RCA converter so I will try my complete system, (hope the amp works again :)).

Specs:

yamaha_a-07_a07.pdf

 

 

Y-A07.jpg

yamaha_a-07_a07.pdf

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On 14/01/2018 at 5:37 PM, Ron Scubadiver said:

https://www.parts-express.com/lepai-lp7498e-200w-class-d-stereo-amplifier-with-bluetooth-aptx-and-power-supply--310-298

 

Don't believe the power rating because it is at 10% thd and standard ratings are at 1%.  

 

I heard about the LEPAI 7498 here for the first time:

https://darko.audio/2016/09/rmaf-2016-to-show-fifteen-affordable-audio-systems/

 

I bought it as a temporary solution while my other amp was out for repair and IMO, it is worth entirely  the 100$ of its current price (I bought it for 106$..) and more than adequate for the proposed use case.

 

Having said that, finding and recapping an old amp might be fun.....

 

PS: if you want a review you can also look here

https://www.stereophile.com/content/entry-level-38-page-2

 

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3 hours ago, Donzauker said:

 

Hi Bigbob.

Following your hint I recovered from a closet my old Yamaha A-07 (dated 1984 if my mind doesn't fail...).

Tomorrow I will have in my hand the 3.5mm jack / RCA converter so I will try my complete system, (hope the amp works again :)).

Specs:

yamaha_a-07_a07.pdf

 

 

Y-A07.jpg

yamaha_a-07_a07.pdf

 

 

I loved my Yamaha receiver. My technician swears by the Natural Sound. I loved the CD direct switch, which bypassed all tone controls

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Ti are continuing to develop ever better performing Class D amp chips at reasonable prices. The most recent TPA32XX family is a step beyond the TPA31XX series and others such as the TDA7498.

 

Given a budget of <$100, I'd look at buying one of these, which includes a power supply:

 

FX502SPRO, Ebay Link

 

It may be worth your while getting up to date with the latest Class D Budget offerings; you may be pleasantly surprised...

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On 1/15/2018 at 2:30 PM, mitchco said:

 

Great work man! Sounds great! I also run a Crown XLS 1502 on a pair of JBL double 15" bass bins in my biamped system. They replaced a Nelson Pass Class A amp when I blew it up (had it since 1991) and I am really impressed with the sound quality. I would never have believed it from a relatively inexpensive Class D amp...

 

I have a lot to discuss with you w.r.t. speakers and your reviews here on CA (very good!).  But honestly when it comes to low freqs, I just cannot see why a person would expect a class A or AB amp to sound better than a good, low-noise, low-distortion class D amp.  If the top designs dumped switching grunge onto the line, it would show on the signal in proper testing.  And in cheaper designs the grunge does show up.  You need to watch your grounds for HF currents, etc., when you look for that.

 

While I'm ranting :), another thing that *should* make better sound is cheaper amps used for multi-amping (one channel for every driver) than fancy amps to drive speakers full-range.  The different distortions have different effects:  IME you need the multiamps to be *fairly* close to the quality of the single fancy job.  

Just FYI for everyone, Bruno Putzeys has always maintained that a very good class A amp should beat a very good class D amp on SQ, unless the latter measures so well that nobody can tell.

 

Those XLS Crowns are rated by Crown as fairly noisy and with their high gains one should hear it, but the stiffness and (related) low IMD of good class D amps is what matters most.  The I-tech and Macrotech lines rate better, perhaps because the noise floor is the same but gain is higher.  I imagine it's from better parts and/or more regulation.  Cheers!

Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3 GHz i5 CPU and 16GB RAM running newest OS10.9x and Signalyst HQ Player software (occasionally JRMC), ethernet to Cisco SG100-08 GigE switch, ethernet to SOtM SMS100 Miniserver in audio room, sending via short 1/2 meter AQ Cinnamon USB to Oppo 105D, feeding balanced outputs to 2x Bel Canto S300 amps which vertically biamp ATC SCM20SL speakers, 2x Velodyne DD12+ subs. Each side is mounted vertically on 3-tiered Sound Anchor ADJ2 stands: ATC (top), amp (middle), sub (bottom), Mogami, Koala, Nordost, Mosaic cables, split at the preamp outputs with splitters. All transducers are thoroughly and lovingly time aligned for the listening position.

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This amp is a real bargain for it's price: https://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLS1502-Two-channel-x2126-Amplifier/dp/B011X2HTZC/

 

I run balanced XLR output from a Lynx Hilo directly into the Crown balanced XLR inputs. This amp outputs 525 watts a side into a pair of dual 15" high efficiency drivers at 4 ohms. With the amp's input controls turned wide open, in my quiet room, if I place my ear directly at the voice coil on one of the woofers, I can barely hear the amps noise floor as a faint hiss.

 

This series of amp is also known for a very quiet fan, it it runs at all. I have never heard the fan in nearly a year of daily operation. Amp sounds good too :-)

 

Check out Crown's patented Class-I amplifier technology.

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There is absoulitely no floor noise with my speakers. Even the Classe had a faint noise when I put my ear close to the woofer. 

 

Btw, XLS is based on drivecore. The I-tech was invented before drivecore and equipment with several advanced features. Admittedly, I am not familiar with pro sound equipment. My reference is http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-receivers-processors-amps/17940-something-not-right-crown-xls-vs-xti.html#/

 

 

 

 

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On 1/15/2018 at 1:30 PM, mitchco said:

 

Great work man! Sounds great! I also run a Crown XLS 1502 on a pair of JBL double 15" bass bins in my biamped system. They replaced a Nelson Pass Class A amp when I blew it up (had it since 1991) and I am really impressed with the sound quality. I would never have believed it from a relatively inexpensive Class D amp...

mitcho are you using these just for the low end in mono, with another amp for the highs? Or regular stereo for your biamped speakers.

Computer setup - Roon/Qobuz - PS Audio P5 Regenerator - HIFI Rose 250A Streamer - Emotiva XPA-2 Harbeth P3ESR XD - Rel  R-528 Sub

Comfy Chair - Schitt Jotunheim - Meze Audio Empyrean w/Mitch Barnett's Accurate Sound FilterSet

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15 hours ago, STC said:

 

Could you please point me the reference to this quote by Crown? I was in contact with Crown ( their customer service is excellent) and they advised me to pick the XLS over the CDi model since I am not going to use the DSPs.  

 

I want to reply above the quotes, often more efficient.  Anyway...

 

It's in the datasheets.  For the lower gain setting, the XLS1502 rates at 103dB A-wtd.  Now that's certainly a decent number for a budget amp of such power, and more importantly (as your experience and some reviews attest) Crown is conservative with their specs.  The CDi series has a noise floor about 3dB worse, S/N 100 for 275wpc.  Less efficient: they are either class AB or H with switching supplies.  I-TechHDs are *much* better (112 A-wtd) in all respects, of course costlier, but they are hugely powerful: the smallest does 2500W@4 Ohms so I assume 1250 minimum at 8.  Those are silly big for the home, but now looking at the lower noise, the noise floor will be, hmm, right about where the XLS is.  If you run B&W 800 series or ATCs, these would be sensible for the woofers or subs.  Crown lists damping factors at low freqs only, but >5000 is plenty and way better than the XLS!  The Macrotech I-series are like the I-Techs but rated to 1 Ohm.

 

I like Crown a lot, they have been innovating for a long time.   Thanks for the feedback.   

Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3 GHz i5 CPU and 16GB RAM running newest OS10.9x and Signalyst HQ Player software (occasionally JRMC), ethernet to Cisco SG100-08 GigE switch, ethernet to SOtM SMS100 Miniserver in audio room, sending via short 1/2 meter AQ Cinnamon USB to Oppo 105D, feeding balanced outputs to 2x Bel Canto S300 amps which vertically biamp ATC SCM20SL speakers, 2x Velodyne DD12+ subs. Each side is mounted vertically on 3-tiered Sound Anchor ADJ2 stands: ATC (top), amp (middle), sub (bottom), Mogami, Koala, Nordost, Mosaic cables, split at the preamp outputs with splitters. All transducers are thoroughly and lovingly time aligned for the listening position.

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9 hours ago, Sam Lord said:

 

I want to reply above the quotes, often more efficient.  Anyway...

 

It's in the datasheets.  For the lower gain setting, the XLS1502 rates at 103dB A-wtd.  Now that's certainly a decent number for a budget amp of such power, and more importantly (as your experience and some reviews attest) Crown is conservative with their specs.  The CDi series has a noise floor about 3dB worse, S/N 100 for 275wpc.  Less efficient: they are either class AB or H with switching supplies.  I-TechHDs are *much* better (112 A-wtd) in all respects, of course costlier, but they are hugely powerful: the smallest does 2500W@4 Ohms so I assume 1250 minimum at 8.  Those are silly big for the home, but now looking at the lower noise, the noise floor will be, hmm, right about where the XLS is.  If you run B&W 800 series or ATCs, these would be sensible for the woofers or subs.  Crown lists damping factors at low freqs only, but >5000 is plenty and way better than the XLS!  The Macrotech I-series are like the I-Techs but rated to 1 Ohm.

 

I like Crown a lot, they have been innovating for a long time.   Thanks for the feedback.   

 

I see, you were referring to the specs. Thanks for the clarification.  

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I appreciate your open-mindedness. I was thoroughly disappointed with the $50 Nobsound Class-D amp, but it was only $50, so as the Computer Audiophile on the Cheap, it wasn't much of a loss. My neighbor thinks it sounds great with his little speakers... I gave it to him with the Nakamichi banana plugs and two runs of Monster cable lamp cord speaker wires. I will be interested in hearing what you think of the Crown. A friend had his Hegel H-20 blow up and pulled the Crown DC300 out of the storage shed. He says that Crowns have always had a good sound.

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On 21/01/2018 at 1:16 AM, ShawnC said:

mitcho are you using these just for the low end in mono, with another amp for the highs? Or regular stereo for your biamped speakers.

Yes, low end in stereo to 630 Hz and biamped with much lower voltage gain amps on the top,, so I don't have to "pad down" the compression drivers. I would have got another Crown, but too much voltage gain for the compression drivers, which rarely need more than 1 watt. More details here: 

 

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