A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[sandyk]

Just now, Chopin75 said:

Ok, noted, I will keep that in mind. BTW, I don't think the HdPlex 200W LPS can drive 2 devices that need 19V at the same time? 

 Many users don't need the +19V output. You will need to consult their user manual specifications.

Incidentally, their recent designs have been markedly improved in the amount of residual noise output.

[sandyk]

14 hours ago, Em2016 said:

From Rob Watts:

"As you know, RF noise creates noise floor modulation, as the intermodulation distortion from random RF noise is a white noise modulated by the wanted signal. This then results in noise floor modulation, and is very very audible. It accounts for the things sounding brighter and less smooth;

 

 

I won't comment on the last part. but this section is spot on .
Barry Diament has described it to me as " as though some random treble energy surrounded the details in the recordings."

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, MrUnderhill said:

To this:

Chain = AL NUC [R-Core 19V 5A LPSU > VBus2 > IFI Mercury 3.0 > Adapter > USB B power injector [R-Core 8V 6A LPSU >> DC 3.1 PoE >> 7V2 1A LT3045 >> 5V 0.5A LT3045] > SingXer F1

 

A bit of a simplification.

 

Result?

The new chain has a slightly bigger sound field. There is an increase in dynamics and detail.

 

All positive?

With well recorded material yes. With some tracks then a sibilant edge is more apparent.

 

 You need a larger value normal type electrolytic capacitor in parallel with the input of the 5V  LT3045 (try 100uF 16V for example) to obtain a more tonally balanced presentation. You have in effect a small increase in  upper HF detail at present. which results in a bigger soundstage, but often results in increased sibilance as you have noticed.

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, Cornan said:

The more parallel LT3045 the better noise rejection and less harsh /sibiliant SQ.

 Yes, the output impedance will be reduced markedly.

 I also find it interesting that no matter how low we make the output impedance, the resulting sound is still governed to a certain extent by the type of PSU capacitors used. Theoretically, the noise level of a single LT3045 is way lower than we are supposed to be able to hear, so it appears that the output impedance may be  way more critical than previously assumed.

[sandyk]

30 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

So for months now I am screaming that the PC is far more important than the DAC, which seems unbelievable to myself

 

 

 What took you so long ?  

[sandyk]

14 minutes ago, rickca said:

Answer from John Swenson

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/38213-announcing-the-next-generation-ultracap-lps-12-now-57912v-now-with-parallel-lt3045-regulators/?do=findComment&comment=907618

 

I certainly don't consider myself a PSU expert, but I have done a lot of playing around with different types of PSUs over the years.

 My only thoughts on this are that based on my own experience, I doubt that even a Supercapacitor doesn't have a sound signature of it's own, (i.e not completely neutral) just as normal electros, including low ESR types do, even when using a Capacitance Multiplier, and that the types and values of the input and output capacitors used with the LT3045s don't also have an influence on the final sound just like Cornan has found and manipulates to obtain increased HF "detail"

 Personally, I would like to see much larger value output capacitors at the output, but there are space limitations to consider.

 Neither do I agree with John's philosophy of very low ESR filter capacitors such as Panasonic FM with voltage regulators  as I find capacitors with very low ESR used at this location tend to " harden"  the sound a little.(Lower output impedance at 100kHZ.)

 

[sandyk]

Rajiv

 Congratulations on achieving >500 pages in your thread, and the high standards of your moderation.

 

Regards

Alex

 

[sandyk]

7 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Do you mean >500 pages? 

OOPS !

 I have corrected that slipup in my post.

 As your thread is so large, it would be nice to see a spinoff - The Best Of.

Perhaps posts selected by the many participants in your thread as being the most interesting /innovative and helpful?

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

Side note - the way this thread works: no one is asking or expecting anyone to try anything. People decide to give things a try based on who is reporting the results, and how much trust that poster has established from past experience.

 

 

 That's the nice thing about this thread, as well as the spirit of cooperation between members.

[sandyk]

50 minutes ago, numlog said:

Some have said in this thread SATA is better than m.2 with power filters etc. but what about without it? both types using the PC PSU?

 

Motherboard power will almost certainly be noisier.

[sandyk]

10 hours ago, numlog said:

than SATA power cable directly from PSU?

 

 Yes !  The SQ from any drive is governed mainly by the quality of it's power supply .

 The best thing for the M.2 when used for Audio is likely to be a PCI.E to m.2 SSD PCB  that had a normal Molex Input for power. (assuming they are available ) as this would permit the use of a much cleaner power supply to the SSD.

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Dont ignore optane SSDs. 

 

The same still applies.

Optane SSDs are even less likely to be able to be used with a much cleaner power supply.

 Yes, they would be great for Processor intensive tasks such as 4K OR 8K video, but overkill for Audio.

[sandyk]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 10:47 AM, Iving said:

Correct

 

Incorrect

As posted before at CA and elsewhere, Optane PCIe AIC gives splendid results. I supply dedicated PCIe power from HDPLEX. No other drives required. All CPU/Avoids chipset.

Sorry, but any power derived from the motherboard itself WILL be degraded due to onboard switching regulators, and other components that are also powered from the motherboard itself,no matter whether the motherboard is powered by a Linear PSU or an existing SMPS. The lowest noise and best SQ will still be obtained by powering the SSD directly from the Linear PSU instead of from the motherboard IF possible.

 Yes, it will perform better when the motherboard is powered by a good low noise and low output impedance Linear PSU instead of SMPS though .

[sandyk]

5 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

With SR blue fuses, you can use a multiple of 1.3 to 1.6x what Paul used in your build.  You really should check the fuse in your SR7.  The fuses may vary along with the builds.

 

If the fuses are blowing shortly after switch on, sometimes all that you may need is a slow blow type of fuse with the same ratings.

[sandyk]

22 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

They are slow blow.  For whatever reason, the blue fuses can be (but not necessarily are) more sensitive than standard fuses of similar type and rating.

 

 At what stage do they blow, at start up, or randomly ?

 If Paul is fine with a higher rated slow blow type , then just do that.

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, jean-michel6 said:

Several conclusions , SSD are very noisy and you should definitely not used them in your system. 

Eventhough that I had in ram exactly the same file coming from the SSD or the HDD , since the HDD file sounded consistently better , it means that the noise coming from the SSD is somewhat stored also in the ram. 

 That's why it is best to avoid using SSDs powered from the motherboard. It's far better to power internal SSDs from an additional low noise +5V voltage regulator using the +12V rail for it's input, for improved isolation from each other and other sensitive areas via the power supply. Internal SSDs are then able to readily outperform HDDs for SQ..

 I use a dual Low noise Voltage regulator PCB with 2 separate +5V outputs via John Linsley Hood designed <4uV noise PSU add-ons.

 Unfortunately, this is DIY.

[sandyk]

35 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

My two SSD have been powered by a Michael Stammheim excellent LT3045 psu boards.  

 

 Unless the LT3045 have additional larger value (not Low ESR) electrolytic filter capacitors fitted in parallel, they WILL result in added HF detail which includes added harshness, or an increase in sibilance, as well as a boost in any existing HF noise  from the source material .

Any PSU which has a markedly decreasing impedance at >100kHz will result in this. This applies to Digital as well as Analogue applications . 

 The output impedance of a power supply should be as low as possible , and as flat as possible between DC and >100kHz, and preferably 1MHz. 

 If you used those boards without the additional filter capacitors in parallel , at least at their Input, for powering an Audio Amplifier you would almost certainly find this added HF detail too.
 Note also that Micael has been using daisy chained LT3045 PCBs to obtain an increase in HF detail with streaming, and his experiments in this area are well documented.

 

P.S.

 In the PSU that I showed in my photo previously, if I hadn't used a parallel combination of a normal type 4700uF capacitor in parallel with a Low ESR 4700uF capacitor in the Capacitance Multiplier section., but used 2 x parallel Low ESR type 4700uF instead, I would also have had too much HF detail DESPITE the PSU being used in a Digital area. In fact, I still have a minor increase in HF detail with both A and V, which helps to make up for generational copying losses.

[sandyk]

38 minutes ago, numlog said:

SSD only advantage might be faster sound (timing) but with the noise/glare dynamics are poor so the benefit is lost.

 Because they are solid state devices, their faster switching results in a much higher level of RF/EMI being injected  back into other areas of the PC via the PSU. These switching artifacts have much faster rise and fall times than with an HDD too, which results in a wider bandwidth noise profile. That is why you need to isolate them from the main PSU as much as possible by further attention to detail in the PSU area, at least with high quality Audio applications.

 

 Incidentally, some HDD Data sheets also show the level and bandwidth of this noise output from the HDD going back into the power supply.

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

I understand your comment and may be the psu I am using may mean an increase in hf detail but not in hf noise. 

Since  my SSD psu are totally separate from the mobo psu , it seems to mean that the harshness was coming from the data side of rhe SSD . 

   

 Any noise present in the original signal will also be increased ,a bit like using a treble control in a Preamplifier where you may notice Hiss from earlier Analogue recordings that may not have been obvious initially.

 The increase in noise is more evident though with Live performance Music Videos (e.g. S.N.L.) ,where you can actually see the extra background noise content along with increased HF detail of both A and V.

[sandyk]

28 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

The best solution is to use an external drive with independent LPSU? And the drive should be HDD, not SSD?

 

 

 If you are using a quality, low noise and low output impedance LPSU, the SSD should be every bit as good, if not better than with an HDD.

 Don't forget too, that HDD are electro mechanical  (usually 5,400 or 7,200 RPM) devices which may lack the very high stability of an SSD, thus an SSD having the possibility of lower Jitter as well as (normally *)   no Acoustic noise.

 

I don't  think that others have mentioned this aspect before ?

 

 * The internal inductors in some earlier SSDs " chirped"

[sandyk]

53 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

really! wow!

see this search: https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?q=ssd vs. hdd.......

throws up lots of contradictions in the SSD/HDD debate: esp. saying that SSD has far too much noise compared to HDD, and that SSD should never be used for file playback, too thin, too noisy, too artificial etc? 

That is misinformation.

 In fact, some years ago at a  Computer Audiophile Symposium organised by Chris Connaker , SSD was preferred over HDD, with HDD sounding a little " muddy sounding" in comparison according to Chris IIRC.

 Both SSD and HDD inject wideband noise back into the main PSU, with SSD having a wider bandwidth RF/EMI due to it's faster Data rise and fall times. However, improving the PSU area to help prevent this getting back into the main PSU will markedly improve this area.

 That is why I regulate my PC's +12V supply down to 2 separate, much less noisy and isolated +5V supplies for my OS and Music internal SSDs.

[sandyk]

28 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

Up to now my first built music PC, one box solution with a USB memory stick for file storage sounded the best

 This can be further improved by using a USB Regen powered with a clean separate battery derived or quiet Linear PSU for the USB memory stick, WITH  a USB  adaptor to plug in the Regen which doesn't extend the internal noisy +5V USB power or shield connections .

 Disconnecting the shield connection prevents a possible earth loop due to the USB memory stick and many other USB devices internally connecting the shield and 0Volt ("Earth") wires.

[sandyk]

6 hours ago, numlog said:

Sandy, both of us mentioned using fully external supplies for the SSDs and HDD and still prefered HDD.

My drive supply has its own dedicated transformer, the isolation must be very good there.

These devices will still have to share ground directly with PC so how much isolation can you really get?

 When using additional external PSUs you are increasing the chances of stray earth loops.

 The voltage regulators that I am talking about are very low noise types such as the 40uV from ebay or better and share the same EARTH reference in the PC/server as the they use the internal +12V supply rail...

Neither are the choice of filter capacitor types and values used in the external PSUs are necessarily a good choice, with many PSUs these days using very low ESR filter capacitors which will exaggerate HF detail.

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, numlog said:

Well there is a case against HDDs, apparently they have higher jitter.

If the SSDs added noise is easily manageable like he suggests then on paper they are superior. 

Since the SSD also sounded superior to him then that all ties together nicely.

 

Yes, being mechanical devices that have their motors normally powered from an existing +12V supply rail, (especially the large capacity types) they are then highly likely to have less precise timing, and will also inject their motor current demand variations back into the +12V supply as well. This +12V supply may also be shared with other devices such as another HDD or even an Optical device.

 

There is another fly in the ointment here too. Many people augment the internal PSU with external Linear power supplies which have capacitive coupling back through the transformer to A.C. mains earth. (This is more of a problem with USB though) 

The existing would be using the 0 volts lead back to the internal PSU 's " earth plane" via fairly short leads, perhaps via a couple of 4 pin molex connectors. When you add an external linear PSU you then increase the 0 volts ( earth reference) lead length from the new PSU via it's relatively long 0 volts lead back to perhaps an earth reference derived from a 3 pin plug via perhaps an up to 1.8M long AC cable, plugged into (hopefully) an adjacent socket on the same powerboard. You may also have another variable where the 0 volts lead of the new linear PSU can be either  " floating" or connected to mains earth. This may result in additional RF/EMI pick up from external sources

 

Use an added low noise  internal voltage regulator powered by +12V from the existing PSU, then the earth resistance may then be almost the same length back to the internal PSU's 0 volts plane, or just a few inches longer than previously.

 It's ALWAYS a good idea to keep the  0 volts earth references as short as possible, which is another reason why it's best not to " daisy chain" added LT3045 (etc.) voltage regulators. This applies to both Digital and Analogue areas.

 

Alex

[sandyk]

10 hours ago, lmitche said:

Have you listened to music from a 12 volt double regulated (lt3045 - 3 amp) linear power supply powered 3.5 inch hard drive connected to a server via a USB 3.1 gen2 enclosure to a USB 3.1 gen2 pcie card powered by a 12 volt double or triple regulated (lt3045 - 1.5 amp) linear power supply?

Hi Larry

 No I haven't . I don't need to use a flawed USB output with all the extra work and additional expense it takes to get it performing well.

 I get great results from my general purpose PC via Coax SPDIF from an Asus Xonar D2X when using the additional internal ultra low noise PSUs (JRiver) . Despite what some may wish to believe, even the quality of the PSU used to power the Optical device used for ripping CD/DVD/BR material does matter, (see attached photo) as does disconnecting a broadband router if used for email purposes etc.

 I have found that even earthing the provided screen wire of an R Core transformer with a low noise Linear PSU for USB causes minor degradation. ( I have fitted an earth lift switch for easy comparison purposes) I have yet to hear an external  PSU for use with a Regen etc. that sounds quite as good as a 12V supply from a Li Ion battery with an ultra  low noise voltage regulator, where there is no additional capacitive coupling to A.C. mains earth. Perhaps surprisingly, even powering 2 devices from separate secondary windings on a transformer causes some degradation compared with using 2 separate transformers when used in the USB area.

 In my case, I don't need DSD as there is very little available in that format that is currently of interest to me.

 I have also done a lot of experimenting, and continue to do so with various power supplies, including the LT3045, which I find for proper tonal balancing needs at least one additional higher value normal type electrolytic in parallel to combat the added HF detail from the LT3045 which is a result of the very low ESR capacitors they use, and it's decreasing output impedance towards 100kHz. 

 Note also that the LT3045 data sheets make no claims about it's suitability in Hi Fi applications, although it can do that with additional parallel normal type electros.  

 For best results, power supplies should have a low as possible flat output impedance from DC to way above 100kHZ , and preferably to 1mHz.

 Incidentally, if you use a standard 1A version of the LT3045 to power internal OS and Music SSDs in a PC or server you can expect a lift in HF detail with both Audio and Video. However, in some cases this may make up for system/source material deficiencies, and sound pleasing to many.

Regards

Alex

 

P.S. 

I now have a couple of new BR comparison Music Video discs that clearly show the degradation caused by even using a 3M long USB cable to a USB memory stick, as well as illustrating the excessive  HF A and V detail that can be achieved by the use of a PSU for a Regen/USB memory stick where Low ESR capacitors are deliberately selected to do that.

 No 1s and 0s were harmed in the process.