A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[mozes]

2 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

use JRiver, which loads to memory and plays back from there. 

I also use Jriver, do you set this in the buffer settings? For now I have it set on  "minimal hardware"  

[mozes]

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Correct.  Roy sums it up in his recent posts.   In fact, he goes as far as to clarify that SOtM consider the tXUSBexp pcie card one of their top of the line components. 

That being said, if one had a tx-USBultra, you could use it in addition to the server mods and or tXUSBexp pcie card.  It would house the sCLK-EX, use the remaining 3 clocks for the mobo and or pcie card.

 

But for means of simplification, if using the tXUSBexp and all sCLK EX clocks are being used by it and the mobo, there would be no need for the tX-USBultra.

I have never used a tX-USBultra.  Just going off Roy's findings here.

I have 2 tX-USBultras and one of them controls my switch. This leaves me with 5 spare sCLK EX output taps that I can use.  I need to think of how to leverage them without some crazy spaghetti  

[mozes]

2 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Yes, of course that would be the economical way of doing it, but when your rolling like @mozes is with a new DAVE and two sets of new speakers, I don't think it matters. 

Now he has even more sCLK EX clocks to use.

BTW, I only got the second tX as I got it for a good deal second hand

Still I must find some use for the clocks, anyway who knows what will come to the market in the future? Maybe there will be some need for these clocks later on.

[mozes]

22 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Why did you get 2 USBultras?  Was it just for the clock taps or were you looking to chain 2 for some benefit?

Let's say a USB Trifecta approach!

[mozes]

9 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

Next steps will be to test the Tx USB ultra and also an sCLK-EX board for PC player and or server .

This will be interesting, pls post your findings when get to it.

[mozes]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

Modern DACs today are incredibly good, even at the sub-$2k price point.

Very true! Also a dac is as good as the signal you feed it. With my front end, a friend told me that my Brooklyn sounds better than Berkeley reference 2. Even if it wasn't, and it shouldn't be, I know where to spend my $$ if I am on a tight budget!

[mozes]

2 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Further thoughts and conjecture on the sCLK-EX in relation to the server/PC.  

     I can't pull myself away from the music since getting the upgraded NUC and it's heavily modded clocking, compliments of the sCLK-EX.  I don't know how many clocks SOtM changed out on the Jetway mobo, but I'm sure it's more than 3, maybe as many as 5.  Listening tp Cabaret Voltaire this evening, I thought, " I've never heard CV sound so exact."  The speed on my Omegas is surreal, fast, but yet an air of exactness.  From bass strikes to snares to high pitched keyboards.  Voices in the pitch black background are audible like never before. 

 

Is this it?  I haven't even added the master clock or PH SR7 yet.  Amazing.

 

   Back in June after getting my ISO Regen, I thought, this component is great, no need to carry out my master plan with the modding of the Jetway NUC/sCLK-EX.  The musicallity of the ISO Regen was sufficient.  But then others started talking about the stage presence and detail they we're getting with the sCLK-EX components.  Hummm, I love detail in my music, I thought, can't get enough.  That was it, action was required.  To Korea went my NUC and tXUSBexp that I bought last Spring.

 

      Great move, now as I look back at the ISO Regen, it appears it was a great component for coloring ones music in comparison to the sCLK-EX. 

     Some have said the sCLK-EX sound signature can become a bit thin.  I have not found this to be the case at all with my system.  It is full of life and detail from the deepest bass to the highest chimes.

 

     Which brings me to the point/question we raised a long time ago about the server mobo and it's faults.  That because it had poor clocking/power it damaged the music in a way that required great lengths of components/fixers to correct and bring back to life the sound quality.  But what if we could fix the original problem at the source, the mobo?  What if we could give it clean power and more importantly great clocking?  What if by doing just that from point 0, all the way to the DAC, we did no damage to the music stream?  Would we then be able to shorten the chain of components necessary?  Could a shorter chain actually be better?  And if so, why risk damaging that which was already close to perfect with a so called fixer? 

 

   The clean low powered mobo stripped and remoded with the sCLK-EX clocking does just that.  And in combination with the tXUSBexp pcie card, you can have a completed streamer in just your server only.  No other components/fixers.  Do no damage.  As short as possible connect to your DAC from the server.  Done.

 

     It was suggested by Roy via Lee, that the tXUSBexp pcie card was sufficient for eliminating the sins of a poor mobo.  I find this not to be the case.  I used a similar PC as my NUC with the tXUSBexp Card only being clocked by one sCLK-EX point and it didn't come close to what I have now with the heavily modded NUC with the sCLK-EX and the txUSBexp.

 

    In conclusion, it would seem that fixing the source (do no damage), the mobo, is key to achieving superb SQ which results in the ability to eliminate the need for any of the so called "fixers", components, which may only result in damaging the audio stream that is already "perfect".

Great post, lots of food for thought! 

[mozes]

@Johnseye

when you have some time, can you pls share your impressions of the PH SR7.

[mozes]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

I'm on my way home from RMAF.

 

It was an absolute treat to hang out with @romaz and @limniscate. Roy is just the nicest guy you could imagine, and the man is literally a walking encyclopedia of audiophilia. If he hasn't auditioned it at home, he's heard it, or at least heard of it, and can give you amazing insights into it. It was also great to meet @kennyb123 from this thread at the RMAF happy hour that @The Computer Audiophile hosted. It was great to meet several other CA'ers at the happy hour. And through Roy, we met and hung out with "Audio Bacon."

 

W also got the opportunity to go out to dinner with May and Lee. I continue to be amazed at what this little company of 6 manages to deliver. And they are both the nicest people.

 

The SOtM (pronounced Sohm (t-silent), we learned ) room was one of the better sounding rooms, primarily due to the Ultra chain. Lee had brought his Advanced sCLK-OCX10. This is the middle version, not the Reference. Even so, the demo with the clock connected vs. disconnected was as dramatic as we had heard in our own systems. There's no way at a show to say how this clock would compare to a Cybershaft or the Ref 10, but it's certainly making a huge difference over the sCLK-EX. It was nice to see Roy, Eric, and me have the same knowing reaction to the clock's effect.

 

Extending this further - now that we've gotten so used to the glare-free and natural presentation of our clock chains, it was actually the rare room at the show - among those playing digital - where the "glare" was not immediately obvious.

 

One such exception was the Bluebird room, which demo'd the Chord Dave and Blu-2 M-scaler, playing on Vienna Acoustics speakers. Hearing the Dave by itself and then with the M-Scaler was epic. This was a fall out of your chair improvement. I know I've said I find DAC differences to be modest, but this was anything but. I heard the same effect downstairs in the CanJam Chord booth.

 

Finally, it was a treat to have a long chat with Rob Watts, due to our "friends of Roy" elite status.

 

I'm so glad I went!

I wish I were able to make it and hang out with you guys! Glad you enjoyed your time

[mozes]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

. I continue to be amazed at what this little company of 6 manages to deliver. And they are both the nicest people.

Totally agree with you. What I find so impressive about SOTM is not only the innovative products they develop but also the rapid pace of development. Ultra products followed by sps-500 PSU then reference clock and who knows what next!

[mozes]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Rajiv, you could always build your own Mscaler with HQplayer. ?

I see everyone talks about upsampling to DSD512, but has anybody tried upsampling PCM to 705Khz?

[mozes]

1 hour ago, limniscate said:

According to Lee, two months.

 

$2500, $3000, $3500 depending on quality 

It seems that Mutec Ref10 maybe a better value given that it has its built linear PSU.

[mozes]

35 minutes ago, austinpop said:

believe these prices are tentative. Not clear if these will be the final numbers.

I am disappointed with the prices, I was considering it but if I want the ref clock with a good PSU, then we are talking about $4K, I will pass unless SOTM will do something about their prices.

[mozes]

11 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

This is kind of what I heard with the M-scaler and DAVE at RMAF. Of course, I have no point of reference at 352/384. Would a SW upsampler like HQP, upsampling to the same 705.6/768 come close to, or even match, the M-scaler? 

 

I know Rob Watts would say no, but have any DAVE/M-scaler owners tried this comparison? Just to prove the point for themselves?

Interesting, also what about HQP upsampling to 768Khz with Mojo? I wish I tried that when I had the Mojo

[mozes]

5 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm pretty sure Roy will try his M-scaler feeding 705/768 to his Hugo 2. Now that should be interesting!

+1

[mozes]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Sadly, this is the default response of most vendors, especially the non-technical sales types. They don't know what we're talking about. In this case, this guy is even further off the mark, because he's thinking in terms of word clock inputs. The idea that improving the clock quality on the system and USB/Ethernet data stream clocks could have an impact is foreign to them.

 

No - the breakthroughs will only come by engaging directly with the lead designers and lead engineers. Most of them have very strong opinions about this stuff. To his credit, Rob Watts at least has been willing to hear us explain our empirical findings, and due to Roy's efforts, he should soon be able to listen to the effect as well.

 

Over on the Ayre QX-5 thread, Charles Hansen did at least say they would "research" our findings, but I didn't sense a lot of interest there. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Let the manufacturers say what they want. We make our decisions based on what our ears tell us!

[mozes]

Thank you Roy for all your valuable contributions, wish you all the best!

[mozes]

28 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Overall, I'd still say the improvements were modest, not earth-shattering. Still, for the very reasonable cost, it is a no-brainer.

The interface is what keeps me away from HQPlayer.  I am used to the convenience of Jriver, but I always keep my eyes open. Have you tried no upsampling to check if HQplayer is still sonically superior playing files at native sampling rates?

[mozes]

4 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

You can use Roon with HQP. No need to use its native interface. 

Yes that’s a good alternative, but I did A/B testing a while back between Roon and Jriver and Jriver was clearly more transparent sounding to my ears. Of course I didn’t try Roon with HQP.

[mozes]

6 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I despise over paying or even paying for software.  The only one I buy for bit perfect audio, great library and video capabilities, JRiver.  And that's only every two or three releases for $16 if you catch the pre-release update (initial 1st time buy is $50, I think, it was many moons ago). 

Windows 10 - free, you don't need it to be licensed to work properly.   Everything you need to optimize Windows 10 can be done free on your own. 

Jriver is a great value!

[mozes]

1 minute ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Mozes, it doesn't matter, your never going to use HQP having a DAVE.   Nor am I within the Chord family.   If I was going to use HQP, I would think about DAC's that have been shown to work best with it.  Not the other way around.

Even with my Brooklyn, I used to prefer no upsampling. I felt that playing the music natively has more of an effortless flow.

I also like my PC not to be pushed hard, I belong to the low power low noise school  

[mozes]

6 hours ago, Johnseye said:

I forget whether Elvia and Mozes have modified their mobos or implemented a similar solution, but I seem to remember another person doing something similar.

I haven’t, just using Nimitra server.

[mozes]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I mustn't be as sensitive to playback SW differences. I've done native sample rate experiments with Roon, MinimServer, and Roon/HQP, and to my ears, they are identical.

Keep in mind that I am on a direct USB path, mybe it is more sensitive to any changes in the server vs a network and an end point.

[mozes]

14 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Believe it or not, it was to just enjoy what I have, and not worry about constantly upgrading, like he does.

 

More seriously, we discussed that what I have now is a local optimum (to borrow a mathematical term) in terms of SQ and value. After this, any improvements I make come at significant cost:

1. Upgrade downstream - i.e. my DAC. But as I have found, major $$$ only yield modest further SQ improvements
   • I am intrigued by the likes of the upcoming TEAC UD-505. Will that, driven by a master reference clock, be a significant SQ improvements? I'll need to audition.
   • Or perhaps just wait for something like the M-scaler to trickle down to a lower price point. That will take years!
2. Upgrade upstream to achieve end to end sCLK-EX'ing - but this has the immediate cost hit of needing another sCLK-EX board, and subsequently a master reference clock with more than one input, unlike my Cybershaft. Selling my Cybershaft for a Mutec or SOtM is $2-3k right there!
   • preserve my trifecta, so:
     •  replace my current Roon server with a low-power, sCLK-ed build, optimized for bridged networking. Embed an sCLK-EX board here, but 2 of the taps routed externally to...
     • ... the router.  Or,
   • Scrap my trifecta, and go with Roy's build

All of these options involve significant expense. It's not that I will never consider them, but from here on out, I'll want to audition things before just taking leaps. I would love to compare my trifecta medley against a direct USB alternative, for example. 

 

I am hoping some local folks, like @limniscate or @atxkyle go down these paths, so we can do easy comparisons! Or maybe you, @auricgoldfinger? You're not that far from Austin!

The most logical step to me is to keep your Trifecta as is and enjoy it for another year, give or take. Who knows by then what the market will  bring and where our level of understanding of this crazy digital stuff will be!

[mozes]

9 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Since my DAC works best with USB, and has no AES input, he has promised to let me borrow his demo dCS NB (once the USB repurposing FW update is applied) to see how it compares to the trifecta medley.

This will be a very interesting comparison!