A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

It is not about the availability of parts. It is about the genius to put the right parts into the right composition. It is about excellent hearing and excellent technical understanding. I do not see this coming from another manufacturer.

 

Matt

 

1 hour ago, cat6man said:

 

exactly!

 

how the parts are chosen, put together and optimized is where the magic lies.

that is why they are building their own switch, so they can control and jointly optimize the buffering and transmission of data from the switch to the extreme.  this is serious engineering, not cookbook putting together pieces of h/w

 

Not to diminish Emile's achievements, but if he can do it, so can someone else. And if there's money to be made someone will sell it.  Just look at the wide variety of DACs available today as a comparison not to mention older tech components like amps, speakers and headphones.  At one point those things didn't exist.  This isn't magic.  Have hope.

[Johnseye]

49 minutes ago, hols said:

Coupled with improvements in the Linux OS created by my buddy/mentor and running HQplayer embedded + NAA we have been successful to build some servers that can match the SQ of the extreme(not only the bad time extreme but even the resurrected extreme). Comments are from occasional visitors during this COVID-19 times. And I am sure that Nenon's server too is at least on par with the SQ of extreme.

 

Thanks for the input Hols.  It's interesting to hear this from an Extreme owner.  It certainly helps keep reality in check.

 

[Johnseye]

2 hours ago, romaz said:

 

Having now owned my Extreme for nearly 9 months, I'll add my own experience with the Extreme to what @hols has shared as further "food for thought."  Back when I was using Euphony/Stylus with my own DIY servers, I thought I had said goodbye to Roon for good.  Yes, I missed the overall Roon user experience as I felt it was unmatched but I eventually got over it because Stylus just sounded so much better.  What was so special about Stylus was that Željko Vranić, Stylus' primary programmer, carefully vetted all updates to make sure that SQ was not somehow negatively impacted and it was amazing just how often even simple changes did indeed impact SQ.  Having been part of that process, I found it to be very eye-opening.

 

When the Extreme came along, I won't lie, one of its many appeals was the prospect of being able to return to the Roon user experience while getting better SQ and sure enough, even cold out of the box, Roon on the Extreme sounded a large step better than Stylus on my best DIY server.  It wasn't a knock on Stylus, it was more a testament to how Emile so masterfully figured out how to mitigate the SQ penalty imposed by Roon's bloated code.  Unfortunately, this utopia did not last and as hols alluded, Roon released a disastrous update that very significantly adversely affected SQ on my Extreme.  What was worse was Roon's callous response on their forum and while Emile was able to offer a rescue, what was concerning was I knew it would probably happen again.  There's no denying how great a job the people at Roon have done creating a slick-looking, feature-rich, stable, and broadly compatible music playback software platform but it is my opinion that SQ is not one of their priorities or at the very least, they have no one vetting their updates for SQ changes.  While I was upset for awhile, Roon actually did me a favor.  This update was so bad that I knew I couldn't allow myself to be hostage to its whimsical ways any further and so it led me to HQPlayer standalone.  Even without upsampling, with my Extreme, it is simply a superior sounding software music player.  

 

As I have gotten to know HQP, I have learned more of its nuances and quirks.  With no upsampling or with PCM upsampling, it is fairly light on its feet and doesn't present much of a load to most CPUs.  Most NUCs will suffice as a minimum.  DSD upsampling, however, is a different animal and it is with DSD512 upsampling especially where the hardware requirements really become challenging.  While the Extreme is a very powerful server, it was designed by Emile specifically for bit-perfect playback and so his hardware choices reflect this.  It incorporates dual Xeon CPUs with numerous cores but relatively slow clock speeds (2.2GHz max).  Because optimum bit-perfect playback on the Extreme doesn't require high clock speeds, Emile's preference is to slightly roll back CPU clock speeds rather than to allow the cores to throttle to max.  Consequently, while the Extreme is capable of it, imo, it is not the ideal platform for DSD512 upsampling with HQP.

 

HQP upsampling to DSD512 or higher benefits more from high clock rates and so something like a 9900K or 10700K would be preferable to the Xeon Silver 4210 CPUs used in the Extreme.  HQP upsampling also benefits from CUDA cores with the Nvidia Pascal GPU as a minimum and the Volta/Turing GPUs being better still and so anyone doing serious DSD upsampling should consider incorporating such a GPU but note that these are power hungry and noisy devices.  Furthermore, at least with the Extreme, the latest versions of HQP (version 4.x) are incapable of seeing the 2nd CPU and so this is suboptimal utilization of the Extreme's resources.  Lastly, as stated, the Extreme was designed for bit-perfect playback and with bit-perfect playback, the Extreme consumes about 60-70 watts and runs warm (but not hot).  Force it to upsample to DSD512 and now it's consuming 300+ watts and despite it's very effective passive cooling measures, the Extreme is now running fairly hot.  At these "extremes", the Extreme is probably no longer sounding at its optimum best.  It just wasn't designed for this.  If DSD512 upsampling is the goal, the SGM2015, EVO or Pink Faun 2.16X would probably be more suitable as these machines were originally designed with this in mind.  In this case, I would look to use the Extreme as an HQP endpoint (NAA) and not as the upsampling server.  Once again, DSD upsampling should not be confused with HQP NOS (non-upsampling) or HQP PCM upsampling as either of these modes perform superbly on the Extreme.

 

If there is a strong desire to upsample to high-rate DSD without having to deal with the challenges of building a high-powered HQP server, one option is to consider either the EMM Labs DA2 V2 or DV2 DAC.  These DACs will take a bit-perfect feed from any server and upsample that feed internally to DSD1024.  I had the opportunity to audition a DV2 in my home and it performs as advertised without the fuss of heat, high power draw, or noise.  More importantly, it is an excellent sounding DAC. 

 

 

Alternatively, there is also the option of moving up to HQP Pro which is different from HQP Desktop or HQP Embedded.  It is more expensive at $3k but it allows you to offline upsample your files to DSD512 or 1024 (or any PCM rate) and then play back these files on any server (even without HQP running).  It obviously would only be applicable for files that you own but now you can playback these files on any server, even a low powered NUC.

 

Roy, after using HQPlayer as a stand alone, Roon with and without HQPlayer on multiple OS's, Euphony's Stylus and JRiver I agree that HQPlayer as a stand alone sounds best.  Its interface for song/album/artist sorting is worse than Stylus (and Roon) unfortunately.  When I know exactly what I want to listen to, it's great.  If I want to browse not so much, and it has no Qobuz or other streaming integration so there's another key limitation.  I've also found that the music stored locally on an Optane drive sounds better than over the network with HQP.

 

For those looking at HQPlayer as an upsampler, it pairs very well with NOS R-2R DACs.  I have been using a Holo Spring Kitsune DAC for years.  I also own a Chord Hugo TT2 which I pair with Omegas in the office.  I'll bring the Chord into my main listening room and swap it out with the Holo Spring for listening comparisons when making changes.  They are slightly different sounding DACs, but I don't think one is superior to the other, they are just different.  Holo has recently released their "May" DAC which I've read is a nice step up from the Spring.  I have not listened to it yet, but am looking forward to hearing it one day.

 

[Johnseye]

5 hours ago, romaz said:

 

I, too, was frustrated by the limitations of the unregistered version of HQP and 1 minute of listening time is indeed very short and so what did I do?  I bought HQP Pro and I am both pleased but also have regrets.  I am pleased because it did everything it claims to do but I have regrets because somehow, I can't get it to run on my Extreme and so as of now, I am forced to run it on a server that is far inferior to the Extreme.  The process has been educational and what I am finding is that the quality of the files that you generate with HQP Pro is very much dependent on the quality of the server used to create these files.  Don't think you can just create files on any server and end up with excellent results.  For years, there has been debate about whether there are SQ differences between different CD ripping software with some swearing they can hear differences (I belong to this camp) and others suggesting there could possibly be no difference but my experience with creating new masters via offline upsampling with HQP Pro strongly supports that noise created by your server becomes permanently embedded in the new recording and even play back of these files through the Extreme won't fix it.  What I am hoping is that eventually, I will be able to run HQP Pro on my Extreme but for the time being, I'm using my HQP Pro as a proverbial boat anchor.

 

Very interesting hypothesis and/or discovery.  I've made efforts in the past to re-rip CDs.  I haven't taken the splurge with HQP Pro yet, but it is more food for thought when doing so.  Thanks for this info.

 

Another downside of HQP Pro is that you can't use it seamlessly with Roon, so if you're using Roon it isn't a replacement for HQP Desktop or Embeded.

[Johnseye]

For those with a JCAT USB XE, I had issues powering it with an LPS-1.2 after about a month it just stopped working.  I'm powering it with a PHD SR4T and it's working again. Looks like it needs a little more current.  Hopefully 2A is enough.  I'd rather not be using the SR4T to power this card if anyone has any cost effective recommendations.

 

 

[Johnseye]

2 hours ago, NanoSword said:

I thought using PHD you wouldn't want to use anything else. Do you think the sound did not improve much when changing from LPS to PHD?

 

I think it probably did improve somewhat but I can't A/B test. It is likely the PHD is the best supply for the application but I was wondering if there were other options at higher than 2A.

 

[Johnseye]

I've been using the Planet Tech MGB-TLX SFPs.  Does anyone have experience with Finisar FTLX1475D3BCV, FTLF1318P3BTL, 1321 or 1324 that they can speak to in comparison?

[Johnseye]

Thanks guys, that helps.  Anyone try FTLX1475D3BCV yet?  From another post I believe @jabbr had and was using it.

[Johnseye]

It's a 1GB and 10GB SFP+.  Not sure if you'd need a 10G compatible device or if it works in a 1G device.  Are you certain it is incompatible with the ER and OM?  I was thinking about using it with a Solarflare card but also would like to understand it's other compatible devices.

[Johnseye]

12 minutes ago, lmitche said:

What's on the other side of the Solarflare card? If it's also 10Gb SFP+ capable go for the industrial model.

 

The other end of the Solarflare will be an EtherRegen.  I could use the Melco there, but neither are 10G.  The Solarflare will be the only device that's 10G in my entire network.  I'd been reading some positive reviews about it, was considering the JCAT Net Card XE and thought I'd give the Solarflare a shot first.

 

This would also give me the opportunity to put these SFPs in other devices for a comparison with the Planets.

 

So you raise a good point Larry, would there be a compatibility issue? I could put the same SFP at both ends but will need to make sure it will work in them.

[Johnseye]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

While not required, I always use the same SFPs at both ends of the fiber. And in my case everything is SFP+ capable. Have you considered a 10gbps switch for use with the Solarflare? I hear Mikrotik has a good one that is affordable.

 

Thanks for the recommendation.  I have an sNH-10G, EtherRegen and Melco.  I don't necessarily "need" a 10gbps switch now but will keep it in mind.

[Johnseye]

On 3/28/2021 at 6:31 AM, lmitche said:

 

These drives are at End of Life(EOL), so we need to find a substitute for this use case with good speed on short randoms writes and a quiet controller.

 

I believe it is just the retail versions. There will continue to be pro Optane releases. Still obtainable.  Have you heard anything different recently?