A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[mozes]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

@mozes already reported he got a huge bump in SQ with going from:

 

Nimitra > tX-USBultra > Brooklyn

 

to:

 

Nimitra > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra > Brooklyn

Yes it was a big improvement. I really didn't expect the IR to add anything to the tX but it did and in a big way!

Keep in mind that I don't use end points in my system. 

[mozes]

4 hours ago, sadekkhalifa said:

what about if he switches to the following arrangement:

 

Nimitra > tX-USBultra > ISO-Regen > Brooklyn

 

This will give us an indication of which one is better as the best clock should be closest to a DAC

Unfortunately, No music till another week when my VR Mini comes back 

[mozes]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Attention, propeller-heads! Mad science experiment alert!

 

I am stoked. Barring any last-minute conflicts, @limniscate and I are getting together next week for an SOtM Ultra-vaganza! 

 

There are far more experiments and potentially interesting questions that we will be able address in a reasonable session time - although, we may decide on followup Ultra-vaganzae as warranted.

 

In the spirit of community, I wanted to open the floor and entertain any experiments you all might have high on your list, but we haven't covered below. I make absolutely no guarantees about whether we will be able to perform these experiments, due to time and other unforeseen constraints.

 

This is the aggregate BoM (bill of materials) we will have on hand:

• 1 x Zyxel switch (sCLK modded)
• 1 x D-Link switch (sCLK modded)
• 1 x sMS-200 (sCLK modded) 6-9V
• 1 x sMS-200ultra 12V
• 1 x tX-USBultra 6-9V
• 1 x dX-USBultra 12V
• 1 x Singxer SU-1 stock PSU
• 4 x LPS-1 supplies
• HDPlex 100W LPS, supplying 2 x 12V rails
• Assorted dCBL-CAT7 and iSO-CAT6 cables and isolators
• Hopefully, I'll be able to use my newfound DIY DC cable skills this weekend to whip up a Canare 4S6 serial cable, to connect 2 x LPS-1s in series to provide 12v.

Note that with this gear, we now have the ability to have up to 6, count 'em, 6 sCLK-EX reclockings in the chain. Do these many reclockings still provide an incremental boost in SQ? More on this below. The baseline chain we'll use is Eric's:

• Roon Core W10 bridged > D-Link modded switch > sMS-200ultra > (USB) > dX-USBultra > (AES) > Yggy DAC

Here are some burning questions we want to answer:

1. What is the improvement due to 2 x LPS-1 over HDPlex on both sMS-200ultra and dX-USBultra?
2. Is sMS-200ultra 12V (fed by 2 x LPS-1) SQ better than modded sMS-200 6-9V (fed by LPS-1 7V)?
3. Add a 5th reclocking in the chain:
   • D-Link modded switch > sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra > dX-USBultra
4. Add a 6th reclocking in the chain:
   • Zyxel modded switch > D-Link modded switch > sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra > dX-USBultra
5. Compare modded Zyxel and D-Link switches
6. dX via AES to yggy vs. tX via USB to Yggy
7. Singxer SU-1 vs dX-USBultra
8. Effect of dCBL-CAT7 and iSO-CAT6. Too many experiments here to enumerate, but this may have to wait for the Ultra-vaganza redux.

The floor is open.

@austinpopJust to let you know, I will be doing these tests next week when my VR will have arrived:

1- tX-USBultra vs. Iso-Regen

2- Nimitra>IR>tX>Brooklyn vs. Nimitra>tX>IR>Brooklyn

I think this way we will almost have all the answers that we want so far.

[mozes]

55 minutes ago, greenleo said:

 If switch + 200Ultra wins, then the harm of LAN is major.  If 200Ultra+txUSBUltra wins, then the harm of USB is major.

Can you pls elaborate a bit on your logic? There is something interesting in your thinking.

 

[mozes]

29 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

This would be a good time for me to step back and explain my thinking here. I can see it is causing some confusion.

 

First of all, the kit I listed is the aggregate of my and Eric's gear. I would never dream of buying all this stuff myself! Our respective chains are:

• Rajiv: modded Zyxel switch > modded sMS-200 > tX-USBultra
• Eric: modded Dlink switch > sMS-200ultra > dX-USBultra (and a Singxer SU-1)

 

So, the theme of the exercise this week is  - now that we have all this gear at our collective disposal, let's take the opportunity to answer some what-if questions!

 

We have already established on my chain that going from 2 reclockings (modded sMS-200) to 3 (add tX-USBultra) to 4 (add modded switch) each added sonic value, and staggering value, at that. Yes, this adds cost, and I'll come back to that. But the question that remains is - what lies beyond 4? 

 

Roy is going down the path of looking upstream, at reclocking his music server, and even his broadband router and modem. What our collection of gear allows us to do is to add a 5th and 6th reclocking, but still downstream of the music server. The purpose of this experiment is simple exploration. Whether or not the findings warrant additional spending is a completely orthogonal consideration.

 

Which brings us to cost. Let's consider a baseline that is quite typical for folks here at CA: a microRendu (+LPS-1) and an ISO-Regen (+LPS-1). Adding up the cost, this works out to about 1690 USD. Contrast this with what I consider the best value SOtM trifecta here - https://sotm-usa.com/collections/ultra-series-mods/products/sms-200-mod-tx-usbultra?variant=40555632908 - and add in a couple of LPS-1s to power. That comes out to 2540 USD.  This is a difference of 850 USD.

 

(Clarification: I know I have 3 LPS-1s in my chain, but I am finding the 3rd isn't strictly necessary, and I may repurpose it elsewhere.)

 

How much of an improvement (or how different) is the Ultra trifecta over the mR/IR baseline? I'll be able to study this when I receive my loaner IR in a few weeks, along with borrowing Eric's mR if he still has it. There are other experiments of interest with the IR, but from a cost perspective, this is the crux (pun intended) of the matter.

 

For me personally, it would take a significant SQ jump to convince me to spend more on this digital front end of my chain. While the outcome of this study will provide interesting insights, it may not correlate with where the next $500 or $1000 I spend on my audio chain will go. Should I spend more here, or say upgrading my DAC or amp? These are personal choices that we all have to make.

Rajiv, I am probably in a similar situation to yours where I feel that my front end excluding the Dac is somehow at a very high level where I think I should look somewhere else. Right now

I have:

Nimitra + VR mini

tX USBultra + flgship Nikola LPS

IR + LPS-1

 

upgrading the Brooklyn+VR mini is also not straightforward as it is really world class at its price point, and I feel that to significantly improve on it, means I have to step into a scary territory in terms of $$$ e.g Chord Dave level

[mozes]

11 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Mozes, to look elsewhere is the smart move.  Why not continue the removal of the components off the direct AC grid?  Starting with amp and speakers.  Removing my AC powered mono amps and Maggies gave me a huge bump in SQ.  I did like Roy and added some highly efficient speakers (Omega 8XRS) and used my Chord dac (2Qute) to drive them (less than 1 watt).  I also aquired a 12V SS amp if I thought I needed more power and would use my PHynes SR7 (on order) to power it.  But the sound is so good out of the 2 Qute, for near field, I doubt I will use the amp and instead upgrade the DAC when Chord releases the new 3Qute (future Hugo 2).

That's a great idea, non traditional approach, I like it! I love my Naim and can't see myself getting rid of it. May I ask you what 12V SS amp you got?

I hope Mytek comes up with a Brooklyn 2, that would be a great upgrade path as well

[mozes]

28 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

A Temple Bantam Gold, bought it used for $175.  Can power up to 30W, integrated volume control, single RCA input, speaker outputs.  Dont know if I could recommend it until I have a chance to try out the SR7 with it.  SQ isnt even close vs 2qute (solo), amp powered via switching supply.

Im sure there are other power supplies that can be DC powered.  Or as you mentioned, a new dac/amp.

Just some food for thought.

Great stuff thanks for the info. Very good food for thought!

[mozes]

9 minutes ago, austinpop said:

May I humbly ask we not go down the path of "what part of my system should I upgrade next?" 

 

While this thread is hardly a model for staying on-topic,  a question like the above is so open-ended, it would just veer into chaos.

Good point Rajiv this can be very broad and will drift us away from the purpose of this thread

[mozes]

I think this may be relevant in this thread, the new audiophile LAN card from JCAT.

http://jplay.eu/ml_post_slider/jcat-net-card-femto/

[mozes]

I received today my VR Mini and wasted no  time, plugged it in the system and ran the tests that I mentioned in a previous thread. I will provide a score out of 100 just to show the magnitude of the differences. These are all my subjective scores with my subjective ears

 

Test 1: objective is to find if there is a difference to where you place the Iso-Regen before or after the tX-USB ultra. so I compared two scenarios:

1-Nimitra>Iso-Regen (USPCB)>tX>Brooklyn: 95

2-Nimitra>tX>Iso-Regen (USPCB)>Brooklyn: 83

 

Very easy test, scenario 1 sounds significantly better. No need to go into details, but simply all what you look for was better, naturalness, body, sound stage depth and width

 

Test 2: Objective is to compare Iso-Regen with the USPCB and tX-USBultra, so I compared two scenarios:

1-Nimitra>tX>Brooklyn: 79

2-Nimitra>Iso-Regen (USPCB)>Brooklyn:76

 

My gear is powered as follows:

Nimitra: VR Mini 1

tX-USB Ultra: Flagship Nikola LPS (12V)

Is-Regen: LPS-1

Brooklyn: VR Mini 2

 

Overall, the best value is Iso-Regen (it is very close like 95% of the tX at 1/3 of the price, ) buit if you want absolutely the best then the wonderful amazing performance of the Iso-Regen in front of the tX is something to be heard to know what digital with a USB chain can do these days!

 

I won't go into technical details of whats going on, I will leave this to other more knowledgeable members, but I will say that the results match my expectations.

 

Hope this helps!

 

[mozes]

2 hours ago, rickca said:

Thanks for a very useful post.  Did you try the ISO REGEN/LPS-1 on its own (without tX-USBultra) and compare it to the tX-USBultra on its own?

see my post just above

 

[mozes]

2 hours ago, greenleo said:

Thank you.  I guess now we may confirm that the clock of txUltra is better than that of the IR.  Also, the SQ of IR followed by txUltra  is much better than txUltra alone, right?

Yes especially IR followed by tX, there is a great synergy in this combo 

[mozes]

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Very interesting, thanks.  I can understand the ISO Regen preceding the Txusbultra as being the most favorable SQ for Mozes.  I'm sure the galvanic isolation helps both clocks (cleaner power operation, less jitter) in the regen and ultra.  But I can only beg to ask the question, after Limniscate's find on SU-1, what if we cascaded two ISO Regens without the galvanic isolation on the second downstream ISO Regen?  How would that compare?

What is your thinking here? Do you have a specific hypothesis you like to test?

Interesting thought!

[mozes]

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I'm just thinking that you may get fairly close to the ISO Regen/TxUSB Ultra combo at half the total cost.  Also the ISO Regens are much friendlier cascaded with the new adapter.  You can even use the same LPS-1 power supply for both Regens, no penalty, for a further reduction in cost.

I agree, I think so too. The tX design of placing the USB input and output next to each other in the back made it so hard for me to do these tests especially when trying to use the USPCB.

[mozes]

2 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

Just wondering - with all these improvements advanced by Romaz and others in this thread - have any of you noticed a change in the importance of the USB cable?  Has direct mode and use of better clocks lessened or increased the importance of proper USB cable selection?

 

I've been looking forward to UpTone allowing the purchase of individual USPCBs.  I'm eager to hear what happens when I can eliminate my USB cable.  I intend to try microRendu > USPCB > ISO REGEN > USPCB > Hugo TT.  My USB cable is the Audience Au24, which I preferred to a few other well regarded cables at and above its price.  It'll be interesting to hear what happens when I substitute the USPCB for the Au24.

 

The full SOtM stack requires adding another USB cable.  So far I think I've seen only one report, from Roy (I think), where I believe he mentioned that the USB cable entering his DAC mattered more than the other.  His DAVE is said to be relatively insensitive to USB cables compared to most other DACs, so I'm wondering what others have discovered.

I have replaced my curious Regen link between the Nimitra server and Iso Regen with USPCB. It is significantly better! Took me less than 5 sec to make the call

[mozes]

Thanks Roy for a great and informative post as usual. Really nice to read and learn from your experience.

 

11 minutes ago, romaz said:

Ultimately, what this means is that I have decided to abandon the AOIP route and go straight USB.  Not only is it simpler but there are other advantages.  It's possible some of the improved SQ I am hearing compared against the sMS-200ultra is due to Chord's ASIO driver in Windows being superior to the stock sound driver in Linux that is used by all AOIP devices like the mR or sMS-200

I have made the decision a while back to go USB only in my system for simplicity reasons and not because I know it is superior to ethernet. I always felt that there maybe some compromise there because I always read about how great the performance of SMS-200 and microrendu.  I am happy that you also found that USB has a great potential to sound awesome and that we in the USB camp can have the same if not surpass the SQ of a hybrid ethernet/USB chain. Of course, not all USB chains are created equal. In my system and after a lot of trials I found that the best SQ is this chain:

Nimitra sever (VR Mini)>IR(LPS-1)>tX-USBultra(Nikola flagship LPS)>Brooklyn (VR Mini)

 

I still feel that I have 3 clock taps in my tX that are redundant and that I should do something with them. I checked with SOTM about modding the Nimitra, and they recommended to take the SC-ELK board and install it next to the motherboard of the Nimitra for best results, but there was not enough space, so some complications came in the way and I didn't want to have an external box to house the clock board next to the Nimitra so I canceled the whole thing.

 

Right now I am thinking of my analogue amplification based the advice of @ElviaCaprice which was based on your recommendation of going straight from a Chord Dac to highly efficient speakers. It happens that my system is in a small room and I have a near field setup. I sit about 4-5 feet away from my speakers and this new Dac to speakers approach may suit my needs very well.

[mozes]

@Romaz

When you have some time, It would be really helpful to me and others if you can just list the current chain of your digital setup

Thanks

Moussa

[mozes]

2 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Apropos of this: a quick update on @Bamber's IR/LPS-1 that he is graciously lending me. It has finally shipped  and should be here this week.

 

I do plan to burn it in for at least 100 hours before attempting a listen, so it may be a couple weeks before I'll have some results to report.

 

My intent is to try at least 3 different configurations:

1. IR instead of tX-USBultra
2. IR before tX-USBultra
3. IR after tX-USBultra

Holler if you have any other experiment of interest.

All I can tell you is that you will love the IR in your system, it really adds something I didn't get with the tX. I am lousy compared to @romaz of how he describes audio improvements, so I will end it here  

[mozes]

14 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Well, rats, Murphy's Law seems to have struck me at last.  I received @Bamber's IR+LPS-1, drop shipped from Alex, but the LPS-1 appears to be DOA. No red (LED) on initial power on. What are the odds?! I own 3 x LPS-1s with not a single problem!

 

I left @Superdad a voicemail, so I'm sure he'll work some magic. On the bright side, this will force me to let the IR burn in in peace for a few days.

This is strange, I have never heard about a DOA LPS-1 before. These units are very reliable. 

[mozes]

10 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Thirdly, and most important, the adapter/chord between the USB components.  Adding the USPCB from Uptone between the server and ISO Regen was huge

This is also what I found with the USPCB between the Nimitra server and Iso-Regen. It replaced a Curious Regen link. I only have one USPCB, but will getting more.

 

Just to confirm, did you try cascading two IRs and found that it didn't improve anything?

[mozes]

10 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Yes, but I had to share a LPS-1 power supply which I think could be a degradation to the SQ, also even more important, I would have needed an additional USPCB, which I did not have.  But as it stood, I didn't find any improvement in sound with the additional ISO Regen.  Best sound is my current configuration to date below.  It's so good now I may just forgo waiting for the SR7 PS and go ahead and sell the second ISO Regen, without it's USPCB?

This is great news, It seems that one IR with two USPCBs before and after is a damn good sweetspot!

[mozes]

8 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

So you both are abandoning the ethernet endpoint sms-200 or mR solution to go straight from your PCs via USB to a reclocker like the IR or tX?  Just to be clear, you're finding that once a high quality power source is feeding your devices, filtration through copper or fiber ethernet has no meaningful impact?

Just to clarify, I have always been a USB only guy and I can't imagine how ethernet may sound better. 

[mozes]

9 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Ok, so you've never tried a mR or sms-200?

No

[mozes]

44 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

I received my second USPCB tonight.  So I am now listening with no USB cable in the USB path.  In other words:  microRendu > USPCB > ISO REGEN > USPCB > Hugo TT.

It's hot tonight - 81 degrees in the listening room - so two fans are blowing.  I will offer initial impressions nonetheless:  knowing what I know now, there's no chance I'll ever want to throw the Audience Au24 USB cable back in.  I've been floored - particularly in light of the cost of the USPCB ($35).  Ridiculous.  

 

I'll share additional findings later tonight after it cools down.

Great to know, I need to find a way to fit USPCBs in the full chain. 

 

I hope you don't have a tube amp  

[mozes]

8 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I think you should get another USPCB, straight or 90degree, and test it against the TX USB Ultra, with the ISO Regen.  I'm willing to bet the added USPCB added between the server and ISO Regen then USPCB to the DAC beats your current system configuration.  Wouldn't that be crazy?  Would be nice, save you $900 on resale of the TX, let alone the power supply.

Yes it will be really crazy. I will do it!