A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[flummoxe]

Hi Andrew,

 

You mentioned above that the sonicTransporter can be set-up with a USB Ethernet port in bridged mode.

 

I have the i7 version so is it possible to provide instructions please?

 

Thanks

[Peter_T]

Hi Peter,Did you make the bridge before applying AO?Or is it still possible after a machine has been AO'd?

 

I only make the bridge in GUI (didn't try to do it AO'd GUI) and then go to minimal server mode and use AO's script there. I think you cannot make a bridge while you are in minimal server mode.

 

You can connect the renderer directly to your PC in a separate sub-net as I described earlier and that can be done even in AO'd core mode. Potentially also in W2016-core. I will try that later. First I will exercise in W2012-core the necessary command line commands to configure my ethernet-ports.

[austinpop]

I only make the bridge in GUI (didn't try to do it AO'd GUI) and then go to minimal server mode and use AO's script there. I think you cannot make a bridge while you are in minimal server mode.

 

You can connect the renderer directly to your PC in a separate sub-net as I described earlier and that can be done even in AO'd core mode. Potentially also in W2016-core. I will try that later. First I will exercise in W2012-core the necessary command line commands to configure my ethernet-ports.

 

Yeah sorry, I haven't tried AO yet, just gathering info before taking the plunge!

[R1200CL]

 

Also if anybody is interested I could set up our sonicTranspoter i5 with a USB Ethernet port in bridged mode.

 

If you are interested in any of these solution click the contact us button at the bottom of our home page

 

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/

 

I have only read this tread as far as here.

 

Is there any USB to Ethernet converter you recommend ?

 

Can you offer this modification done via TeamViewer ?

 

Or since we know that the SonicTransporter only can use one USB port anyway for storage, why not offer the solution by a firmware upgrade ?

 

Please take the time to give us a proper answer Andrew.

[R1200CL]

Bummer! In the end I gave away my Qnap-251 and built a LPS powered NAS machine for $300, running Linux, sans HDDs.

 

Anyway, just don't execute the ifconfig eth0 0.0.0.0 line.

 

Would not that Qnap be perfect as it has two rj45, and even the possibility to create a virtual switch ? (The HS-251 has)

 

A'm I missing something here ?

[lmitche]

Would not that Qnap be perfect as it has two rj45, and even the possibility to create a virtual switch ? (The HS-251 has)

 

A'm I missing something here ?

Yes, the QNAP 251+ looks great. Just a little expensive compared to DIY.

[agillis]

I have only read this tread as far as here.

 

Is there any USB to Ethernet converter you recommend ?

 

Can you offer this modification done via TeamViewer ?

 

Or since we know that the SonicTransporter only can use one USB port anyway for storage, why not offer the solution by a firmware upgrade ?

 

Please take the time to give us a proper answer Andrew.

 

I tested it here and the performance of the USB Ethernet controller is not that great. Puts a high interrupt load on the sonicTransporter.

 

A better solution would be two built in Ethernet ports. I may look into offering something like that.

[romaz]

A question for those who made a network bridge under W2012R2.

 

I have a discussion with Audiophil, who states that in W2012R2 a network bridge is not possible in minimal server mode or core mode, only in GUI. I agree with Core-mode, but not with minimal server mode : I happily listen at the moment to minimal server mode optimized with AO's script and the network bridge I made in GUI mode is intact. Or are we talking about different types of network-bridge?

 

Who else got the network-bridge setup working in W2012R2 minimal server mode?

I had to apply the bridge while in GUI mode but once applied, I was able to switch to minimal server mode and the bridge remained intact and fully functional. For sure, minimal server mode sounds better in my system. Even ripping CDs with dBPoweramp while in minimal server mode sounds noticeably improved compared to the same CD rip while in GUI mode.

[austinpop]

Even ripping CDs with dBPoweramp while in minimal server mode sounds noticeably improved compared to the same CD rip while in GUI mode.

Whoa there! I know we're in less-understood territory, and I respect your insights, but this one crosses into the twilight zone for me!

 

Are you saying that files ripped running dBPoweramp in minimal server mode are forever imbued with an SQ improvement vs files ripped in the regular way?

 

How can that be?

[romaz]

Whoa there! I know we're in less-understood territory, and I respect your insights, but this one crosses into the twilight zone for me!

 

Are you saying that files ripped running dBPoweramp in minimal server mode are forever imbued with an SQ improvement vs files ripped in the regular way?

 

How can that be?

Try it and hear for yourself. I kid you not.

 

CD recorder connected to Thunderbolt hub via Pachanko UP-OCC SATA Reference cable with CD-recorder powered by LPS-1 and Thunderbolt hub powered by Paul Hynes SR7 > Synergistic Research Thunderbolt cable > Mac Mini powered by SR7 > internal PCIE SSD.

 

CD ripped to lossless uncompressed FLAC in burst mode (fastest ripping, no error recovery).

 

Files recorded in GUI mode (without Process Lasso) vs Minimal Server mode (with Process Lasso). In minimal server mode, recordings have more precision. Starting and stopping of notes are clearer and better discerned. Impact is similar to changing sound signature/digital filter in AO. Obviously, Process Lasso may have some contribution as well.

 

Mechanism? I'm not sure. Less software errors? It's not a complete surprise. For a long time now, I've noticed not all rips sound the same. Both hardware and software will have an impact. Previously, rips from my CAD CAT routinely sounded better than rips from my stock Mac Mini. It's like listening to different masters. Others here on CA and JPLAY forum have also reported hearing differences with their CD rips between GUI and core/minimal server mode. Regardless of the mechanism, it's real and it has nothing to do with the direct connection.

[R1200CL]

I tested it here and the performance of the USB Ethernet controller is not that great. Puts a high interrupt load on the sonicTransporter.

 

A better solution would be two built in Ethernet ports. I may look into offering something like that.

 

I suppose you will use the available mini pci-e slot for such a modification ?

 

So in theory an upgrade may be possible ?

[gadgetman]

This is very interesting. I am always afraid this could happen and so I have resisted firmware upgrades with the sMS-200 because of fear that it could somehow impact my bridge which would be a tragedy. As far as I know, you can't roll back your sMS-200 to an older firmware because if I could, I would roll back to version 2.0 since that version allowed you to assign the sMS-200 a static IP!

 

Hi, newbie here.

You can do it only if you backup your SD card before updating to a newer version. Just download win32 disk imager. It's free by the way. Backup the SD card every time you upgrade to new version. This way you can test the SQ of each revision easily. Here is the download link:

 

https://sourceforge.net/projects/win32diskimager/

[Peter_T]

I had to apply the bridge while in GUI mode but once applied, I was able to switch to minimal server mode and the bridge remained intact and fully functional. For sure, minimal server mode sounds better in my system. Even ripping CDs with dBPoweramp while in minimal server mode sounds noticeably improved compared to the same CD rip while in GUI mode.

Thanks for the confirmation about the bridge working in W2012R2-minimal server mode. I got another confirmation in this thread and it seems that Audiophil does agree now. No bridge in core-mode so W2016 can only be installed in GUI if you want to use it.

[R1200CL]

For those struggling with their machines because of lack of dual native LAN ports or for those looking to start from scratch and are looking for a relatively inexpensive and simple solution to run Roon (and possibly HQP), this device might be an elegant solution:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Fanless-industrial-processor-wireless-Windows/dp/B01CQL9GKK/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1484513553&sr=8-8&keywords=qotom+i7

 

This device is interesting to me because of a few features:

 

1. It utilizes an i7 4500U processor with a fairly .........

 

6. Incorporates 2 mini-PCIE slots which is huge for me because storage on the PCIE bus (whether it be OS or music storage) results in better SQ compared to SATA (possibly due to lower latency). Also, this obviates the need for expensive audiophile-grade SATA cables (which do make a difference with SATA drives). In my own listening comparisons, PCIE SSDs result in improved detail retrieval, greater immediacy and potentially less noise compared with a SATA SSD. Of course, SATA SSDs have the potential for greater capacity (which isn't a big deal for an OS drive).

 

Very interesting.

If mini PCIE slots makes better SQ, then there is also room for future improvement of the SonicTransporter as it at the present is using only one SATA interface for all its offered options.

 

Will be interesting to follow Andrew's product development, as I think we need the SonicOrbiter as well for the ultimate Roon server.

 

With Roon 1.3 I'm not sure if HQPlayer is that interesting any more.

 

You just need a device that can do the planned Roon DSD 512 up sampling as well.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[lmitche]

Romaz, have you compared the SQ of a PCIE SSD vs. an LPS-1 powered SSD? If the latter is done, I'm not sure there is a need for a LPS to power the motherboard and processor. The same can be said for passive cooling. My mechanically silent Noctua fan seems to have no influence on SQ.

[lmitche]

Romaz,

 

Further, I'm not sure there is a need for a LPS to power the motherboard and processor if the SSD is powered by an LPS-1.

 

My hypothesis is that the 5 volt lead power lead to an SSD carries high frequency crap back into the 5 volt power bus and then on to the motherboard where it permeates other 5 volt subsystems, notably the USB components. Stopping this backwash has a huge impact on SQ.

 

I should say that despite having my SSD powered by an LPS-1, SQ is further improved by galvanic isolation between the PC USB bus and DAC suggesting there are other sources of noise than the SSD.

 

Unfortunately one can't externally power a PCIE SSD.

 

Romaz, have you compared the SQ of a PCIE SSD vs. an LPS-1 powered SSD? If the latter is done, I'm not sure there is a need for a LPS to power the motherboard and processor. The same can be said for passive cooling. My mechanically silent Noctua fan seems to have no influence on SQ.

[agillis]

I suppose you will use the available mini pci-e slot for such a modification ?

 

So in theory an upgrade may be possible ?

 

There is no hole in the case for another Ethernet port even if you had a PCIe card.

 

I would build a new unit with a different board and a new case.

 

I actually have one already. I put in a quad core i7 so you can use the new Roon up-sampling to it's full potential.

 

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/custom-units/products/sonictransporter-i7-for-roon-1-3-dsp

 

-Andrew

[romaz]

Hi, newbie here.

You can do it only if you backup your SD card before updating to a newer version. Just download win32 disk imager. It's free by the way. Backup the SD card every time you upgrade to new version. This way you can test the SQ of each revision easily. Here is the download link:

 

https://sourceforge.net/projects/win32diskimager/

 

Thank you. Very helpful to know.

[romaz]

Very interesting.

If mini PCIE slots makes better SQ, then there is also room for future improvement of the SonicTransporter as it at the present is using only one SATA interface for all its offered options.

 

Will be interesting to follow Andrew's product development, as I think we need the SonicOrbiter as well for the ultimate Roon server.

 

With Roon 1.3 I'm not sure if HQPlayer is that interesting any more.

 

You just need a device that can do the planned Roon DSD 512 up sampling as well.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

Improved SQ from PCIE storage, I believe, is a matter of latency. Just how much better it sounds will depend on your system and how bogged down it is. Think of streaming music as a real-time production line within a computer. The most efficient production lines have unimpeded pathways from one segment of the line to the next so that the "workers" within this line don't have to wait to do their assigned task. It also helps if these "workers" aren't encumbered by numerous tasks which is really the concept behind why you have a production line to begin with. This not only leads to greater efficiency (and less overall latency) but a "worker" who can focus on doing only one thing is less likely to make mistakes.

 

With respect to system buses, PCIE is prioritized over SATA which is prioritized over USB resulting in increased potential latency for the buses that are less prioritized. The Thunderbolt bus, by the way, uses PCIE and so it has a very direct path to the CPU and there is no path that is more direct. Then there is the issue of how much traffic is on that bus. If your music server is connected to your DAC over USB, then you will want to avoid USB storage since the DAC will get first priority. You have the same issue of congestion if you have a USB keyboard, mouse, etc. connected to the same USB bus. If your OS drive and storage drive are both on the SATA bus, the OS drive will get top priority.

 

You will also want to avoid playing back music from the same drive that the OS is stored in and this is what Gordin Rankin has to say:

 

"Also, it's probably best not to put the library on the system disk -- because system stuff has really high priority over music playback software and again the music software can fault and bad sound will result. When a music app faults it becomes NON-bit true. One workaround for this is to choose a music app with memory buffering but in my experience even that's not guaranteed to be 100%."

 

In my own system, it is with the OS stored on the PCIE SSD (vs SATA SSD) where the difference is most notable. You can buy a PCIE SSD for music storage but you are limited by volume as these drives are generally not larger than 512GB. In my system, I use a 4TB SSD connected via SATA cable to my Thunderbolt hub and so it is somewhat of a hybrid situation. This hub also contains a CD-ROM drive for ripping CDs which happens to also occupies the same SATA bus within the hub but unless I am ripping CDs, I have this CD rom drive disconnected so that it doesn't inject noise into the system. During my initial comparison of music playback from this Thunderbolt SSD against music playback from a USB SSD, I didn't hear much difference at all. It turned out that the Thunderbolt cable makes a difference and the stock Apple Thunderbolt cable somehow was impacting sound. I then turned to a Corning optical Thunderbolt cable and SQ actually worsened. It took a fairly expensive Synergistic Research Thunderbolt cable before SQ via this Thunderbolt SSD surpassed playback from a USB SSD drive. The difference isn't huge but it's there. My USB SSD setup, however, is really good. I have absolutely nothing connected to any of my USB ports as my Mac Mini runs headless and with my USB SSD drive, I use a very good Clarity Cables Organic USB cable.

I would have to say that factoring the cost of the Thunderbolt hub and expensive Thunderbolt cable, the small improvement doesn't justify the cost but as this hub also contains my CD-ripper and 2nd ethernet port, I have found the expense to be worthwhile. Tidal streaming through this Synergistic Research Thunderbolt cable is considerably improved.

[R1200CL]

There is no hole in the case for another Ethernet port even if you had a PCIe card.

 

I would build a new unit with a different board and a new case.

 

I actually have one already. I put in a quad core i7 so you can use the new Roon up-sampling to it's full potential.

 

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/custom-units/products/sonictransporter-i7-for-roon-1-3-dsp

 

-Andrew

 

Can we start a new thread and discuss new products and possible modifications of your existing one.

 

That link open up for some interesting questions.

[gadgetman]

Thank you. Very helpful to know.

 

Hi Romaz,

 

You are very welcome.

[romaz]

Romaz, have you compared the SQ of a PCIE SSD vs. an LPS-1 powered SSD? If the latter is done, I'm not sure there is a need for a LPS to power the motherboard and processor. The same can be said for passive cooling. My mechanically silent Noctua fan seems to have no influence on SQ.

Yes, when I took my FMCs out of my chain, it freed up my LPS-1 and so I've been using it to power my music SSD. There is an improvement compared to having it powered by my Thunderbolt hub but the improvement is very small. Is the small SQ bump worth devoting a $400 LPS-1 to it? I'm not yet sure.

 

Right now, I'm using my PCIE SSD only for the OS. It has a capacity of only 128GB and so it wouldn't be practical to use it for music storage. However, I did try playing back files from the PCIE SSD and compared SQ against my Thunderbolt SSD powered by my LPS-1. I can't say I could hear a difference.

 

My Mac Mini isn't passively cooled but it's stock fan is as quiet as a Noctua (11dB) and so I never hear it. Uptone Audio's MMK also replaces the electrically noisy PWM fan controller with a linear DC controller. Since I don't oversample, I went with the base Mac Mini (i5 with TDP of only 15watts), removed the wifi radio and the internal hard drive. Consequently, the machine consumes only 3-4 watts at idle and never gets hot. I suspect I could disconnect the fan altogether and it wouldn't overheat.

 

With all of my previous builds, I always used Noctua fans. I think they're the best.

[romaz]

Romaz,

 

Further, I'm not sure there is a need for a LPS to power the motherboard and processor if the SSD is powered by an LPS-1.

 

My hypothesis is that the 5 volt lead power lead to an SSD carries high frequency crap back into the 5 volt power bus and then on to the motherboard where it permeates other 5 volt subsystems, notably the USB components. Stopping this backwash has a huge impact on SQ.

 

I should say that despite having my SSD powered by an LPS-1, SQ is further improved by galvanic isolation between the PC USB bus and DAC suggesting there are other sources of noise than the SSD.

 

Unfortunately one can't externally power a PCIE SSD.

I'm not sure about this. While low noise is very important, in my system I have found low impedance to be a more important quality in a PSU and this may in part be due to the excellent galvanic isolation that my Chord DAVE's floating USB input has. I simply haven't found poor mains quality or leakage current to be much of an issue. For those without a DAVE, an Intona could provide similar benefit. My understanding is that Uptone Audio's new Iso Regen will also provide galvanic isolation.

 

With regards to low impedance in a PSU, it improves responsiveness and dynamics and it seems every portion of my chain benefits from a feed from a low-impedance PSU. Since my Paul Hynes SR7 has variable voltage output between 6-14V, I have used it on just about everything (except my SSD which is a 5V device) and everything I've connected it to has benefited (mR, sMS-200, Mac Mini, Thunderbolt bridge, internet modem/router). The benefit is greatest with either the mR or sMS-200 but the benefit with the Mac Mini isn't far behind. Surprisingly, the modem/router also benefited greatly. I believe its impact on the Mac Mini to be far greater than the impact of the LPS-1 on my Thunderbolt SSD and again.

 

I am so impressed by how transformative this SR7 has been that I have another one on order. This new one will be double-regulated and so line rejection will go from -80 to -150dB. According to Paul, it will even reject rectification noise that he states is audible and so this double regulated PSU will test my theory that noise is less of an issue.

 

Regarding your hypothesis that the 5V lead to an SSD carries HF crap back into the bus, I agree with you. I think it's real and SOtM sells a SATA filter just for this purpose. In my system, however, the SQ improvement by battery powering my SSD is fairly small.

 

As far as externally powering a PCIE SSD, there is a way using the two devices below:

 

Sonnet - Echo Express SE II Thunderbolt 2-to-PCIe Card Expansion System

 

Sonnet - Tempo PCIe SSD

 

The problem is that 512GB capacity isn't enough and I don't think the SQ improvement justifies the effort.

[lmitche]

It might be easier to remove the PCIE SSD and to trying booting and playing from the SSD powered by the lps-1.

[flummoxe]

Hi,

 

I've successfully made the direct connection between my iMac and microRendu.

 

However, using Roon I can only get it to work in Roon Ready mode but not HQPlay NAA.

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile