A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[R1200CL]

So now I get it. To build a good audio PC, take everything you know about building a modern gaming PC and do the opposite. High resolution display ... bad. NVMe PCIe SSD ... bad. Tons of fast memory ... bad. OK, I'm kidding you guys but really it's kind of funny.

 

So now we only need Asus or any another manufacturer to build such a motherboard [emoji3]

 

I wonder what the minimum number of estimated sale would be for them to consider ?

 

And what would such a number be ?

(Which would depend on price)

[lmitche]

So now we only need Asus or any another manufacturer to build such a motherboard [emoji3]

 

I wonder what the minimum number of estimated sale would be for them to consider ?

 

And what would such a number be ?

(Which would depend on price)

OK, so following on yesterday's success with the M.2 SATA adapter, I decided to install an Intel pcie x1 NIC card and turn off the motherboard NIC. This and 5 of the six SATA ports were disabled in the BIOS.

 

Here is yet another nice jump in SQ.

[ElviaCaprice]

OK, so following on yesterday's success with the M.2 SATA adapter, I decided to install an Intel pcie x1 NIC card and turn off the motherboard NIC. This and 5 of the six SATA ports were disabled in the BIOS.

 

Here is yet another nice jump in SQ.

 

All the more reason to start with a much smaller mobo to begin with.

[lmitche]

All the more reason to start with a much smaller mobo to begin with.

LOL, even though it's a called a microATX, I had higher expectations as well.

[rickca]

OK, so following on yesterday's success with the M.2 SATA adapter, I decided to install an Intel pcie x1 NIC card and turn off the motherboard NIC. This and 5 of the six SATA ports were disabled in the BIOS.

Here is yet another nice jump in SQ.

Larry, please remind me which motherboard you are using.

 

Wouldn't the results of using an Intel PCIe x1 NIC vs motherboard NIC be motherboard-specific? Certainly if the motherboard has a Realtek or Atheros NIC, an Intel NIC and drivers might be higher quality. Might it not also depend on motherboard design? In most cases, isn't the motherboard NIC already using PCIe lanes?

 

I'm amazed how you turn over every rock and really appreciate your reporting here.

[lmitche]

I'm using an Asus z170mplus board with the schematic Romaz posted above. It uses an onboard Intel nic.

[romaz]

So you just use the default mode of Lasso without any tweaking? Is the improvements in the SQ obvious? Given so many optimizers like AO, Fidelizer, Lasso and JPlay, I've bought AO and find the improvements obvious and am wondering if I should try other optimizers as well.

In my system, AO provides the greatest step change in SQ and also the best value as it comes with 5 licenses. It is also a very mature and stable product and really quite foolproof as long as you follow the instructions. The great thing with AO is it makes its improvements but nothing remains resident in memory. There are probably more inexpensive ways to do what AO does but the clincher is its proprietary sound signatures. I use these to great effect and it's very easy to switch among the different signatures and filters on the fly. It's like rolling tubes.

 

Project Lasso surprisingly has been very effective even with the simpler dual-core CPU in my Mac Mini. While continually resident in memory, it has a very small footprint. I use mine in game mode which maximizes the responsiveness of your CPU and results in this enhanced perceived immediacy to playback. Without any harshness, the image is more vivid. Not only is timing better but the timbre of instruments is truer. It was Project Lasso that really pushed me to explore minimizing latencies elsewhere in my system. Other than game mode, I run it default. If I had a quad-core CPU, I would probably experiment further but even without tweaking it, I am quite impressed.

 

Because I own Fidelizer Pro, I am using it and perhaps it has added to further improvement but if it has, it's very small. In my new build, I'm not sure I will pay for another license for it.

 

For those who use a microRendu or sMS-200, JPLAY really has no role although I own it as well and with my CAD CAT, it performed well.

[greenleo]

In my system, AO provides the greatest step change in SQ and also the best value as it comes with 5 licenses. It is also a very mature and stable product and really quite foolproof as long as you follow the instructions. The great thing with AO is it makes its improvements but nothing remains resident in memory. There are probably more inexpensive ways to do what AO does but the clincher is its proprietary sound signatures. I use these to great effect and it's very easy to switch among the different signatures and filters on the fly. It's like rolling tubes.

 

Project Lasso surprisingly has been very effective even with the simpler dual-core CPU in my Mac Mini. While continually resident in memory, it has a very small footprint. I use mine in game mode which maximizes the responsiveness of your CPU and results in this enhanced perceived immediacy to playback. Without any harshness, the image is more vivid. Not only is timing better but the timbre of instruments is truer. It was Project Lasso that really pushed me to explore minimizing latencies elsewhere in my system. Other than game mode, I run it default. If I had a quad-core CPU, I would probably experiment further but even without tweaking it, I am quite impressed.

 

Because I own Fidelizer Pro, I am using it and perhaps it has added to further improvement but if it has, it's very small. In my new build, I'm not sure I will pay for another license for it.

 

For those who use a microRendu or sMS-200, JPLAY really has no role although I own it as well and with my CAD CAT, it performed well.

Thank you very much Romaz. So what's your order of using AO, Fiderlizer Pro and Lasso:

FidelizerPro, then Lasso, then AO?

AO, then Lasso then FiderlizerPro?

or sequence ...

[romaz]

You may want to try the HDPLEX DC to DC PSU instead of the Pico PSU. The hdplex sounds better then the 160xt Pico PSU in my low power rig.

Thanks, you guys have convinced me that the Pico PSU is less than ideal but before I completely abandon the thought, SOtM has gotten back to me and while they cannot replace the switching regulators in this unit with their ultra low noise linear ones (due to heat production), they know they can add high quality capacitors to it and further replace all the wiring with larger gauge UP-OCC grade copper or silver. In essence, this is all that Paul Pang has done with the DC-to-ATX converters that he sells. Obviously, even if SOtM went to the trouble to build me a DC-to-ATX converter that had linear regulators only, there are other noisy switching voltage regulators deep within the motherboard that can't be replaced and so it's unclear to me just how much of a difference going to all this trouble will make. Given the low cost of this unit, I may take the gamble and have SotM modify it for the purposes of comparison.

 

With that said, I have also communicated with Paul Hynes about this today and while he has his own DC-to-ATX converters with better wiring that he can provide me, these converters also contain switching regulators and he felt it best to bypass them altogether and go completely linear with both rails and so this means I will have to dedicate two 12V rails from my SR7 to this motherboard. I had hoped to avoid this since these SR7 rails are precious but unless I am pleasantly surprised by the Pico PSU that SOtM has agreed to modify for me, I probably will go this route.

 

Regarding the HDPlex DC-to-ATX converters, I did explore this already recently because when I first contemplated my server build, I wasn't sure I could find a suitable mini-ITX motherboard that I could easily power like my Mac Mini. On the surface, I did find the HDPlex converter to be very attractive as they do incorporate name brand capacitors and inductors. During my e-mail inquiry to Larry at HDPlex a while back, he told me these converters use a discrete regulator design and not the Linear Technology regulators that he used in the HDPLEX LPSUs that I own because LT's regulators top out at 8A. Of course, I asked him for measurements and he offered to show me ripple noise measurements but that was as far as he had.

 

This is where I struggle to know how good a certain regulator circuit or PSU is since ripple noise seems to be the only information that anyone cares about or can provide. While low noise is very important, if this is all I had to go by, I would never had seen a need to move beyond the $50 iFi PSU that came with my microRendu since that unit boasts a noise level of only 1uV. As we know, while the iFi is decent, it is easily bettered by so many things.

 

When I generally inquire about things like output impedance, operating bandwidth, settling time, transient response, etc., almost without exception, no one is able to provide this data. Now, I do appreciate the value of utilizing overspec'd transformers and megawatt PSUs for low power applications to avoid such things as core saturation and to provide plenty of dynamic headroom and I also realize that not all great PSUs come with measurements for various reasons and the LPS-1 is a good example of this but for those of us doing comparative shopping for a good regulator circuit or PSU, it becomes very difficult to do so because all we have to go off of are someone else's subjective or speculative comments.

 

Having said all that, I do value the opinions and endorsements of others and as you and others have vouched for the HDPlex converter, I am certainly now inclined to believe it is very good and I have no doubt it will be better than the stock PicoPSU but the problem I see with it is that it only accepts 16-24V input. I am well aware of the advantages of higher voltage but this would require me to move away from my current SR7 which I am not willing to do at this time.

[romaz]

Romaz,

 

Turning off the Windows networking tasks still allows remote control via tightvnc server and Roon access to Tidal. It is only drive sharing that is lost. I turn it off after boot, so it just takes a reboot to turn everything back on.

Thanks for pointing this out, Larry. I will try it. With AO, you are given specific network options and shutting them all down prevents remote access and Tidal streaming.

[romaz]

Sorry Roy, but a 3A PS will not boot a Mac mini, no matter how slim you make it. I've done the tests on the bench, and minis will fail to boot with anything less than about 3.9A.

Just FYI.

Thanks for clarifying, Alex. I guess booting a computer is just like turning over a car engine.

[romaz]

Whoa! 4 amps for 16GB of RAM?! That calculator you are using is not to be believed... If anywhere near that much current was drawn by RAM (maybe magnetic core memory from the 1950s?) we would not have laptop computers and the traces on RAM modules would just burn up...

 

Just sayin'...

I know what you're saying and I also have my doubts. This calculator suggests 16GB of DDR3 consumes up to 6 watts more than 4GB at full load. 6 watts at 1.5V is 4A and definitely sounds excessive but even if the real value is half this amount (which is still high), I suspect it is a very transient spike and nothing sustained.

[romaz]

So now we only need Asus or any another manufacturer to build such a motherboard [emoji3]

 

I wonder what the minimum number of estimated sale would be for them to consider ?

 

And what would such a number be ?

(Which would depend on price)

I would love to be part of something like this. Perhaps we create a wish list, present it to someone like Asus, and organize a group buy where they will be guaranteed a certain minimum volume of sales! This now happens all the time.

[R1200CL]

I would love to be part of something like this. Perhaps we create a wish list, present it to someone like Asus, and organize a group buy where they will be guaranteed a certain minimum volume of sales! This now happens all the time.

 

It's worth trying. Maybe John Swenson can help us with specifications ?

 

Can you start a tread ?

You seems to have a good overview already [emoji3]

[romaz]

OK, so following on yesterday's success with the M.2 SATA adapter, I decided to install an Intel pcie x1 NIC card and turn off the motherboard NIC. This and 5 of the six SATA ports were disabled in the BIOS.

 

Here is yet another nice jump in SQ.

I'm finding that I'm having very mixed feelings about moving up to a larger motherboard and dealing with the challenges of properly powering it purely for the sake of improving my access to the CPU. Your findings, however, are providing me with the reassurance I am looking for that my troubles will be worthwhile. Thanks!

[romaz]

Thank you very much Romaz. So what's your order of using AO, Fiderlizer Pro and Lasso:

FidelizerPro, then Lasso, then AO?

AO, then Lasso then FiderlizerPro?

or sequence ...

You would install AO first, Fidelizer Pro second and Process Lasso last. At least that is what was recommended to me and that is what I did. While they do some things that are redundant, they each also supposedly do some things that are unique and what is nice is that all play well together.

[romaz]

It's worth trying. Maybe John Swenson can help us with specifications ?

 

Can you start a tread ?

You seems to have a good overview already [emoji3]

Sounds like a good venture for an enterprising outfit like Uptone, Sonore or SOtM. There's also the option of creating a slightly beefier version of the microRendu or sMS-200 that can run a stripped down version of Windows or Linux.

 

Here is where Intel CPUs are going which I find to be very exciting and also very suitable for just the right motherboard:

 

https://ark.intel.com/products/95441/Intel-Core-i7-7Y75-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_60-GHz

 

This 7th generation mobile i7 CPU is a dual core design with 4MB of SmartCache and has a decent base clock frequency of 1.3GHz, essentially the same speed as the CPU in my Mac Mini but with a larger cache. What is unique about this CPU is that it has a configurable TDP of only 3.5W!

[lmitche]

I'm finding that I'm having very mixed feelings about moving up to a larger motherboard and dealing with the challenges of properly powering it purely for the sake of improving my access to the CPU. Your findings, however, are providing me with the reassurance I am looking for that my troubles will be worthwhile. Thanks!

Well with only three external cables, AC, Ethernet and fiber, and one internal SATA cable, there isn't much left to tweak. The m.2 SATA tweak is a great cheap and substantial upgrade. As I had a spare Intel server nic card, is occured to me that it may be a better quality solution then the onboard nic. Seems I was right. FWIW, the physical distance to the CPU is certainly further however. In this case moving a noisy co-processor​ farther away from the CPU may be a good thing.

 

The nic and fiber card both need pcie slots and I am pretty sure there are no mini-itx boards with twin slots so microATX is unavoidable.

[jcn3]

You would install AO first, Fidelizer Pro second and Process Lasso last. At least that is what was recommended to me and that is what I did. While they do some things that are redundant, they each also supposedly do some things that are unique and what is nice is that all play well together.

 

i owned fidelizer pro first and installed audiophile optimizer second -- they don't interact with each other so i don't think it matters. no experience with process lasso . . .

[greenleo]

Well with only three external cables, AC, Ethernet and fiber, and one internal SATA cable, there isn't much left to tweak. The m.2 SATA tweak is a great cheap and substantial upgrade. As I had a spare Intel server nic card, is occured to me that it may be a better quality solution then the onboard nic. Seems I was right. FWIW, the physical distance to the CPU is certainly further however. In this case moving a noisy co-processor​ farther away from the CPU may be a good thing.

 

The nic and fiber card both need pcie slots and I am pretty sure there are no mini-itx boards with twin slots so microATX is unavoidable.

 

 

The m.2 SATA tweak means to have a m2 to SATA adapter, and then SSD connect to this adapter, right?

 

Can the Intel server card do bridging physically, say thru physical jumpers or software settings? So far Win Server 2016 Core mode doesn't provide bridging and that makes direct connection impossible, up to my knowledge. It would be great if bridging can be done through this card.

 

Have you tried Intel LAN card (only one LAN port and substantially cheaper than the server card) and compare the SQ?

[romaz]

i owned fidelizer pro first and installed audiophile optimizer second -- they don't interact with each other so i don't think it matters. no experience with process lasso . . .

I think the issue is between Fidelizer Pro and Process Lasso. It is advised that FP be installed before PL.

 

ProcessLasso and enhancements Sound Quality. - Page 14 - Computer Audio - JPLAY - hi-end audio player for Windows

[steklo]

I don't know if that has been posted here before – but if I get it right this official guide by QNAP shows how to set up a QNAP NAS (of course those with more than one Ethernet port) as an Ethernet Bridge, doesn't it?

 

https://www.qnap.com/en/tutorial/con_show.php?op=showone&cid=201

[lmitche]

I don't know if that has been posted here before – but if I get it right this official guide by QNAP shows how to set up a QNAP NAS (of course those with more than one Ethernet port) as an Ethernet Bridge, doesn't it?

 

https://www.qnap.com/en/tutorial/con_show.php?op=showone&cid=201

Yes, this tutorial explains how bridging is enabled on a QNAP NAS and has been shared on CA in the recent past.

[PANURUS]

HI Romaz

 

Already near a year, that you are spending time with the micro-rendu.

I read you, and i still hesitate to buy it.

Could the Chord Poly a better, if not simpler, solution with our Dave that the micro-rendu?

Have you speak about that with the Chord team?

Jean

[romaz]

HI Romaz

 

Already near a year, that you are spending time with the micro-rendu.

I read you, and i still hesitate to buy it.

Could the Chord Poly a better, if not simpler, solution with our Dave that the micro-rendu?

Have you speak about that with the Chord team?

Jean

Hi Jean,

 

It's interesting you ask about the Poly. I spent about an hour with the Chord Poly at CES in January. This unit was designed purely by Chord. Rob Watts had no real involvement in its design. Obviously, this was designed for portability and to pair seamlessly with the Chord Mojo but it may prove to be a legitimate contender against anything and with any DAC. Mated with a Mojo, I was quite surprised by just how good it sounded, good enough that I have one on pre-order. While my intentions are to use it as a portable player with a Mojo, I am open to the possibility it may serve as a solid backup in my home system.

 

What is interesting about this player is that unlike a mR or sMS-200, this unit is not just a Roon Ready endpoint capable of high-res wireless streaming via wi-fi from a NAS or Bluetooth from a phone (something that worked exceptionally well during my time with it), it is actually a condensed high-level PC capable of playback of high-res files (up to 768kHz PCM and DSD512) from its integrated SD card reader via an MPaD control applet that you can have on your smart phone or tablet. That means that without the need for an additional music server, this device can play back almost any type of music file. Unfortunately, this unit doesn't have enough horsepower to run RoonServer internally and so MPaD must be used for it to play music from its internal SD card reader.

 

Conceptually, it has many things going for it. Its small size makes for very short signal paths, low impedance and a very light footprint just like the mR or sMS-200. Because it is a "wireless only" streamer and is battery-operated (LiPo), there are no ground loop or leakage current issues to contend with and so galvanic isolation will not be a concern. Both OS and music playback is flash-based if the SD card reader is used and so no noisy SSD or hard drives to contend with. I presume it probably utilizes a decent clock based on how good it sounded.

 

Could it be better than a mR or sMS-200? I hesitate to make this comparison based on the brief time I had with it but I think it could possibly perform on equal footing with an mR or sMS-200 when powered by an iFi power supply. I would be surprised if it can compete with either of these endpoints when powered by something like an LPS-1. Of course, I'm sure there are some of us who will figure out some hack to be able to power the Poly with something like an LPS-1 or SR7 and at that point, all bets are off.