Why I think Roon is overpriced even though I've never tried it

[sdolezalek]

The biggest issue we have is that we are trying to do something new, and the old ways of organizing/tagging/viewing your content are historical legacy we are trying to break free from. We have problems in the classical model, but what you are describing comes from this legacy we are trying to move on from.

 

Danny: I think you are doing something new and wonderful. But given the negative feedback from nonusers and those who try Roon for the free trial and then complain, I wonder whether it might be worth offering a lower price 6 month initial subscription. I have been a Roon user from the start, but even more than a year later I'm still learning how to use it better.

 

I have a collection of almost 2,000 albums, most of them classical, and have no problems today finding exactly what I want. But I first had to learn the "focus" and "filter" functions, which are different from the search tool, but also can be much more powerful if used properly. Virtually every complaint I have seen here about search and tagging indicates the user has not yet learned those functions and walked away too soon.

[tboooe]

I purchased a 1 year subscription to Roon only so that I could have an efficient way to interact with HQPlayer. To me, all the other currently available options that work with HQP are not very good. If I had not loved HQP so much I would have kept my Minimserver + BubbleUpnP solution.

 

I applaud Roon for what it is trying to do but right now I totally agree that it is overpriced. I am hopeful that features continue to be added to make music discovery and education a more enjoyable experience. So for now, I will keep my annual subscription while I keep an eye out for other options that integrate nicely with HQP.

 

I will advise though that Roon not forget that at the end of the day it is still a music library management system and player. In these areas Roon definitely lacks the polish and features of other applications (free and paid) already mentioned here. Of course, it takes time to develop features but I fear that Roon is too focused on meta data and discovery and ignoring some basic features that though minor in scope has a big impact on user experience and perception of the product, especially if lower priced competitors offer it.

[Keith_W]

Beethoven had no CDs. Never once in his life did he release an "album" or be involved with an "album". What you are seeing there are his works (his compositions). From there, you will see performances of those works, which live on albums.

 

If you want to take an album centric view and show only albums where one of the tracks has Beethoven as a composer, you need to go to album browser, and then focus on Beethoven as a composer.

 

We should make a link to automatically do that for you from the composer's details page.

 

The biggest issue we have is that we are trying to do something new, and the old ways of organizing/tagging/viewing your content are historical legacy we are trying to break free from. We have problems in the classical model, but what you are describing comes from this legacy we are trying to move on from.

 

Thank you Donny. Beethoven may not have released an "album", but he did write symphonies, sonatas, and concertos. These are meant to be listened to in order, like an album.

 

Likewise, Wagner did not write albums, but he did write operas. Once again, these are meant to be listened to in order. Sometimes, very long pieces of music are split mid-music by the mastering engineer to avoid having one single track which lasts for an entire hour. These tracks MUST be listened to sequentially, with no pause and fade-in. These are not individual "songs". You know, like an album.

 

Bach did not write albums either, but he did write cantatas, sonatas, organ pieces, and so on. Once again - these are meant to be listened to in order. Like an album.

 

Mahler was a well known symphonist and composer of songs. When he wrote the sixth symphony, the original version had the two middle movements in a certain order. Mahler changed his mind and reversed them, and late in life he changed his mind and restored the original order. To this day, Mahler scholars debate the correct order of the two middle movements. Well, Roon has settled the debate. It simply plays the sixth symphony in random order. Oh, with maybe some Palestrina in the middle just to liven things up.

 

You may not like the album model, and it may be something you are trying to break free from, but the model you are using completely wrecks the continuity of classical music. But at least now I know where you are coming from. Your way of thinking and your philosophy will never work with classical music. I suppose that is why Roon is so bad at it.

 

Why not just do this - introduce an option where if Roon finds a bunch of "songs" grouped together in a directory, that is how they should be played, and in that particular order. I can tell you that nobody who listens to classical music will store parts of his Wagner opera in 40 different directories, mixed with compositions of Bach and Shostakovich. If you use any other approach, and especially an approach where you try to collate tracks from different directories and present it in a "new" way - I guarantee you that it will be a million times more difficult and more inconvenient for anybody who listens to classical.

 

I might be pretty critical of Roon on public forums, but in the end I want a product that meets my needs. At the moment, nothing meets my needs. Not Roon, not Foobar or JRiver (neither have HQP support), and not Alchemy or Muso for other reasons. I am open to working with you on this. If you like, you can inbox me and we can exchange emails.

[dannyroonlabs]

Thank you Donny. Beethoven may not have released an "album", but he did write symphonies, sonatas, and concertos. These are meant to be listened to in order, like an album.

 

Likewise, Wagner did not write albums, but he did write operas. Once again, these are meant to be listened to in order. Sometimes, very long pieces of music are split mid-music by the mastering engineer to avoid having one single track which lasts for an entire hour. These tracks MUST be listened to sequentially, with no pause and fade-in. These are not individual "songs". You know, like an album.

 

Bach did not write albums either, but he did write cantatas, sonatas, organ pieces, and so on. Once again - these are meant to be listened to in order. Like an album.

 

Mahler was a well known symphonist and composer of songs. When he wrote the sixth symphony, the original version had the two middle movements in a certain order. Mahler changed his mind and reversed them, and late in life he changed his mind and restored the original order. To this day, Mahler scholars debate the correct order of the two middle movements. Well, Roon has settled the debate. It simply plays the sixth symphony in random order. Oh, with maybe some Palestrina in the middle just to liven things up.

 

You may not like the album model, and it may be something you are trying to break free from, but the model you are using completely wrecks the continuity of classical music. But at least now I know where you are coming from. Your way of thinking and your philosophy will never work with classical music. I suppose that is why Roon is so bad at it.

 

 

I'm clearly missing what you are saying, since I'm seeing that we have exactly what you want.

 

We have that unit you describe... The abstract thing is the "work", and the concrete is a "performance" of that work. An album is just a collection of performances. A cantatas, sonata, organ piece, opera, and others are all works. If the album masterer split a performance of that work into 3 tracks (maybe per part/movement?), then that clump of 3 tracks equals 1 performance of that work.

 

For example, I just went to Composers, then Bach, then his work "BWV 1010", which I have a performance of on a Yo-Yo Ma album (tracks 19-21 on his 1998 release of The Cello Suites).

 

Or, can find that Yo-Yo Ma album by either doing a focus for composer/Bach on the Album Browser (or one of the many other ways to find albums), and then seeing that tracks 19-21 are clumped together and instead of repeating boring track names over and over, it breaks up the performance into the work + the movements/parts it consists of. It lets you play them in 1 clump, or play an individual movement. It also gives you a link to go back to the work BWV 1010, so you can see the other performances of that same work.

 

If you want to see all your symphonies, go to work browser and focus on symphonies. If you want to also see them based on a certain composer, or in a certain form, you can do that too within focus.

 

Or maybe you are looking for a performance browser where you can sort by composer -> work, similar to the track browser where you can sort by artist -> album?

[beerandmusic]

^^^ just out of curiosity, if a user has their music organized in folders the way they like it, is that an option, e.g. can you just play by windows tree folder? I like to browse my own tree structure and play from there.

 

Also please expand on your DSP in the works? Is your engineer as good as Miska where he will get there at least eventually? And if not, why not try to work a licensing deal with Miska (either a flat amount or let him take a royalty with everyone that is willing to pay $50 more his DSP feature. I know you support it, but i know a lot of people would prefer to have the SQ without having to run 2 players....I hear the argument that it may be better performance to run in 2 different boxes, but i think more people would prefer it be able to in one player....again, just throwing things out there.

 

I would be more likely to pay $550 with Miskas DSP than $350 without it.

[sdolezalek]

You may not like the album model, and it may be something you are trying to break free from, but the model you are using completely wrecks the continuity of classical music. But at least now I know where you are coming from. Your way of thinking and your philosophy will never work with classical music. I suppose that is why Roon is so bad at it.

 

Keith: I'm not understanding the trouble you are having. I keep my Roon library in "album" view and then apply focus and filters that specify, for example Composer = Beethoven, to get to a very specific sublist of albums that fit those filters. Once there I listn to those albums in full in the order I then choose by using add to my playlist. I assume you must be using your library differently?

[beerandmusic]

Name 5 "professionals" who believe that.

 

You, for one....or are you prepared to go on record as saying that PCM is superior?

 

I would love to hear you say that PCM is better than DSD...then i wouldn't be hurt as much for you suggesting I was lying when i said Roon sold for $350 lifetime, and i would lose the respect for you I once had. I don't have golden ears, and the DSD capabilities I have heard is a clear winner.

 

As far as what professionals believe that, i would probably start with MISKA....and when i go to CES all the majority of the professionals i heard were playing DSD music to demo their gear.

 

I am really surprised that you think PCM is superior...really surprised.

[Keith_W]

Well Danny, if Roon can do that then I missed something when I last looked at Roon. It was v1.2 when I did my Roon trial. Am I only allowed one Roon trial? Maybe I should download it again and see if it works.

 

And yes, I have absolutely no intention of editing my metadata. There are more than a 100,000 tracks in my collection, and it is already organized the way I like it - in folders. Right now, I listen to music by navigating to the folder, and dragging and dropping it into HQPlayer. I can do it on my touchscreen PC without having to reach for the keyboard. There are quite a few drawbacks to this approach, lack of smartphone support is one of them. But it works really well.

 

It sounds as if I need to use a keyboard if I want to focus on a particular composer, and then focus on symphonies? It would be really nice if Roon was as easy to use as Windows Explorer. No keyboard required.

[dannyroonlabs]

Well Danny, if Roon can do that then I missed something when I last looked at Roon. It was v1.2 when I did my Roon trial. Am I only allowed one Roon trial? Maybe I should download it again and see if it works.

 

And yes, I have absolutely no intention of editing my metadata. There are more than a 100,000 tracks in my collection, and it is already organized the way I like it - in folders. Right now, I listen to music by navigating to the folder, and dragging and dropping it into HQPlayer. I can do it on my touchscreen PC without having to reach for the keyboard. There are quite a few drawbacks to this approach, lack of smartphone support is one of them. But it works really well.

 

It sounds as if I need to use a keyboard if I want to focus on a particular composer, and then focus on symphonies? It would be really nice if Roon was as easy to use as Windows Explorer. No keyboard required.

 

It's been able to do this from the first day :-) It's a huge piece of software... lots of ways to do lots of things. We are thinking about increasing our trial length to help users figure this out. Some more tutorials would help too.

 

No keyboard is required -- remember, we are fully functional on tablets.

[whoozwah]

I don't have roon. I tried it for 14 days and didn't think it was for me. That said, I personally think that it is a FAR better approach to talk up products that you like rather than talk down products that you don't.

[dannyroonlabs]

I don't have roon. I tried it for 14 days and didn't think it was for me. That said, I personally think that it is a FAR better approach to talk up products that you like rather than talk down products that you don't.

 

 

Generally a good strategy, but I like to hear complaints... it helps us improve the product :-)

[Jud]

I don't have roon. I tried it for 14 days and didn't think it was for me. That said, I personally think that it is a FAR better approach to talk up products that you like rather than talk down products that you don't.

 

Generally a good strategy, but I like to hear complaints... it helps us improve the product :-)

 

He might have been referring to you talking down some other products' UIs earlier in the thread also, now mightn't he?

[The Computer Audiophile]

You, for one....or are you prepared to go on record as saying that PCM is superior?

 

I would love to hear you say that PCM is better than DSD...then i wouldn't be hurt as much for you suggesting I was lying when i said Roon sold for $350 lifetime, and i would lose the respect for you I once had. I don't have golden ears, and the DSD capabilities I have heard is a clear winner.

 

As far as what professionals believe that, i would probably start with MISKA....and when i go to CES all the majority of the professionals i heard were playing DSD music to demo their gear.

 

I am really surprised that you think PCM is superior...really surprised.

 

Your logic is beyond anything I have experience with. I've never said anything you suggest and don't know how you draw your conclusions.

 

I'll say this: there's no such thing as a superior format. And, you've named 1 out of 5 professionals.

 

I think I'm done with this specific discussion.

[semente]

You still don't get it: Roon on its own sounds great and doesn't need HQP. It sounds as good or better than most other software on the market, including a program like JRiver. HQP users are a subset of their listeners, not their main audience.

 

Programs like A+ and HQP aren't mainstream audiophile programs - they are too geek and fiddly, even for most people with good systems. They will never use such programs, as they are too specialist and/or don't have a true user friendly interface.

 

So you still don't get it:

5 - Want very good sound, as good as anything on the market (that isn't very fiddly and intended only for a very small group of Computer Audiophile geeks), and get a great overall experience - Roon, by itself

6 - want best overall listening experience, and get the most enjoyment out of your music library,

including best SQ: Roon + HQP.

 

 

 

Reducing Roon to "pictures" proves your lack of understanding and perspective.

Whilst I agree with most of what you wrote I would define Roon not so much as a music player but as a Music Encyclopedia that also plays music files.

It's not my thing, for I find it grabs too much of the listener's attention, but I can perfectly understand it's appeal.

And because it provides more that just music playing abilities the higher cost seems easily justified.

 

R

[semente]

You and i both know that is true to some extent...but we know there are masses that are in between...(as for me, i bought jriver twice, fidelizer, and will buy hqplayer since Miska has agreed to put in a feature i requested). I like it when manufacturers listen and are reasonable. I STRONGLY Believe that if ROON rethinks their pricing structure they will appeal to a much bigger camp and be more profitable...jmo.

 

Unfortunately it's the market that dictates prices and sometimes there'll be products that we cannot afford or justify the cost/return ratio.

 

That's life.

 

R

[Jud]

I'll say this: there's no such thing as a superior format.

 

Regarding recordings, folks pretty uniformly agree the quality of the recording rules, and that format only enters into it if you have choice of two formats of an identical recording. Even then, what sounds better (for example with a hybrid SACD that has both DSD and Redbook layers) is a matter of whether the studio's version of DSD sounds better than your DSD conversion from PCM or vice versa, what input your DAC can use or is happiest with, etc.

 

Regarding DACs, good luck finding consensus on those at any given price point.

 

Yet some folks can't seem to leave others to their own choices, but must have One (whatever) To Rule Them All.

[Iain]

...

 

I've never used Roon, ...

 

Actually in my quest for LAN connectivity for HQP, I tried to integrate Roon with it during my evaluation period last summer. During that period I found Roon unacceptable in that I would have to use it's interface and it's a rip-off. I was hoping to be able to use HQP interface with Roon LAN connectivity. Roon support said it doesn't work that way, so I cancelled my order.

 

Thankfully, the new Sony UHP-HI was finally released last summer:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-UHP-H1-Premium-High-Resolution-Blu-Ray/dp/B01FW52SCU/ref=sr_1_10?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1475853383&sr=1-10&keywords=sony+blu+ray+player

 

It's what I've been waiting for, and meets all my expectations for multi-channel DSD and FLAC file support.

 

I'm through with dodgy software players.

[beerandmusic]

Unfortunately it's the market that dictates prices and sometimes there'll be products that we cannot afford or justify the cost/return ratio.

 

R

no argument here.

I will continue to wait for a product/price that better serves me.

I am glad i spoke out and continue to speak out though, as maybe roon will listen, and maybe a future offering (whether it's stripped down, improved on for sq, improved features, or better price) may meet my desires better. Also, the thread brought the manufacturer here to respond. Also since they at least offered 10% off to other forums besides CA as recently as 3 months ago, maybe they will acknowledge us here more too... I don't think anything but good can come from this thread, even as negative as my rant may have been. Maybe it will inspire other competition also. I find CA a great avenue to be heard. People may not care for my communication style, but sometimes controversy is good for the market.

[Jud]

Actually in my quest for LAN connectivity for HQP, I tried to integrate Roon with it during my evaluation period last summer. During that period I found Roon unacceptable in that I would have to use it's interface and it's a rip-off. I was hoping to be able to use HQP interface with Roon LAN connectivity. Roon support said it doesn't work that way, so I cancelled my order.

 

Thankfully, the new Sony UHP-HI was finally released last summer:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-UHP-H1-Premium-High-Resolution-Blu-Ray/dp/B01FW52SCU/ref=sr_1_10?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1475853383&sr=1-10&keywords=sony+blu+ray+player

 

It's what I've been waiting for, and meets all my expectations for multi-channel DSD and FLAC file support.

 

I'm through with dodgy software players.

 

Some folks, in these days where DAC hardware is obsolescent almost before you buy it and some software players offer pretty continual upgrades, feel it's the old familiar hardware game that's dodgy.

 

Guess it just depends what interests you more or aggravates you less, wrestling with software or dealing with the current relatively rapid obsolescence of relatively expensive hardware. (Some people deal with the latter by constant purchase and resale, and good on them, but it's something I personally have no patience for.)

[beerandmusic]

still hope to hear from anyone, since i heard "kieth's complaint" does ROON even have the option to allow you to browse and play by windows folders? that would be my preferred method, and i just checked on my installation, and it doesn't even seem to have the basic capability? Hopefully it is a setting somewhere or option where you can at least browse by your own folder structure??

[semente]

no argument here.

I will continue to wait for a product/price that better serves me.

I am glad i spoke out and continue to speak out though, as maybe roon will listen, and maybe a future offering (whether it's stripped down, improved on for sq, improved features, or better price) may meet my desires better. Also, the thread brought the manufacturer here to respond. Also since they at least offered 10% off to other forums besides CA as recently as 3 months ago, maybe they will acknowledge us here more too... I don't think anything but good can come from this thread, even as negative as my rant may have been. Maybe it will inspire other competition also. I find CA a great avenue to be heard. People may not care for my communication style, but sometimes controversy is good for the market.

I use hqplayer in combination with itunes: I browse with the later then drag and drop into the former.

It's not ideal but it works quite nicely.

 

R

[whoozwah]

He might have been referring to you talking down some other products' UIs earlier in the thread also, now mightn't he?

 

I wasn't. I was referring to the OP's tirade. If Danny is interested in hearing my critiques of the software I'll PM him.

[Norton]

I'm sure you're very well aware such software exists for the purpose and with the intent of making the musical signal that comes out of the DAC as absolutely pure and unmodified from the analog original as it can possibly be.

 

Surely only software that aims for bit perfect replay can even begin to attempt to offer that? I can't see how software that relies instead on extensive DSP can be said to offer replay which is intrinsically as "pure and unmodified" as it can be; more like that extensive manipulation of the signal, like a sophisticated version of the tone controls of old, results in something that provides a reconstruction of the analogue original that is deemed acceptably accurate according to the individual perception and tastes of the listener?

[dannyroonlabs]

still hope to hear from anyone, since i heard "kieth's complaint" does ROON even have the option to allow you to browse and play by windows folders? that would be my preferred method, and i just checked on my installation, and it doesn't even seem to have the basic capability? Hopefully it is a setting somewhere or option where you can at least browse by your own folder structure??

 

no, one of Roon's core motivations is to take files out of the experience.

[beerandmusic]

I use hqplayer in combination with itunes: I browse with the later then drag and drop into the former.

It's not ideal but it works quite nicely.

 

R

 

thanks...

 

as simple as it may be to run 2 players, i don't know why, i just don't want to have to do that. I don't even like creating playlists. I like to just browse my windows folder structure, click a track and it begin playing from there until i simply click a different track. I don't want to have to add tracks to a playlist. Miska said he will make that an option in the next release. Shuffle by genre would also be nice.