Native DSD versus DOP comparison

[mikey8811]

Thanks guys!

 

You have all been very helpful to a novice like me. A lot better than some of the other threads on this forum where questions do not even elicit a single response.

 

I have also been trying to understand the difference between DoP and Native DSD. I also keep hearing the term DXD being bandied about especially in conjunction with dCS Ring DAC's.

 

I was always under the impression that DoP is basically DSD in a PCM wrapper and sonically identical. It appears from this thread that it isn't.

 

My streamer, an Auralic Aries says it does DSD up to 256 natively via USB BUT on the Processor Setup page, under Resampler Configuration, it says DoP for DSD64 and DSD128. There do not seem to be other selectable options

 

My DAC is a PS Audio Direct Stream which says it accepts DSD natively up to DSD128 via USB but when I play tracks via the Auralic Aries it shows DoP on the front panel.

 

I am guessing this means I have been playing DoP and NOT native DSD.

 

What am I doing wrong and what can I do to play DSD natively?

 

Thanks

[firedog]

25 minutes ago, mikey8811 said:

I was always under the impression that DoP is basically DSD in a PCM wrapper and sonically identical. It appears from this thread that it isn't.

Your original understanding is correct.  The only difference is the wrapper, not the DSD data. Once the package is accepted by the USB input on the DAC, it is processed the same way as non DoP DSD. If someone says they are sonically different, let them prove it (hint: they can't).

 

And again: DoP DSD is "native DSD". The DSD itself hasn't been altered. The term is incorrectly used by some to try and make it sound like not using DoP is superior and different. Non native DSD is supposed to mean DSD that's been altered by conversion to PCM , or possibly multibit DSD (point of contention), which is what many forms of playback/processing do to DSD. This has nothing to do with the DSD file being sent as DoP or not. 

 

some help: http://help.nativedsd.com/en/articles/63529-getting-started-playing-dsd-and-dxd-files

https://www.northstar.it/dsd-native-vs-dop/

https://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard

[Kal Rubinson]

8 hours ago, mikey8811 said:

My streamer, an Auralic Aries says it does DSD up to 256 natively via USB BUT on the Processor Setup page, under Resampler Configuration, it says DoP for DSD64 and DSD128. There do not seem to be other selectable options

That is because the DoP wrapper adds to the bulk of the data transmission.  Putting DSD64 or DSD128 into DoP practically doubles the size of the package being transmitted.  As a result, putting DSD256 into a DoP package exceeds the bandwidth that the Auralic will support even though "native" unpackaged DSD256 does not.

[mikey8811]

Hi @ted_b and @Kal Rubinson

 

Just reviving this thread as I ran into issues downsampling some newer DSD 256 files to DSD 128.

 

I basically tried doing this again using the TEAC converter programme. However, this time, while the files can convert and be played, the resultant DSD 128 files were ridiculously large.

 

For example, an original DSD 256 file with the size of 468.1 Mb became 1.47 Gb after conversion to DSD 128.

 

Is there a reason for it?

 

As per my earlier post and your replies, it would seem that the file size should be halved from DSD 256 to DSD 128.

 

Thanks

[kumakuma]

20 minutes ago, mikey8811 said:

Hi @ted_b and @Kal Rubinson

 

Just reviving this thread as I ran into issues downsampling some newer DSD 256 files to DSD 128.

 

I basically tried doing this again using the TEAC converter programme. However, this time, while the files can convert and be played, the resultant DSD 128 files were ridiculously large.

 

For example, an original DSD 256 file with the size of 468.1 Mb became 1.47 Gb after conversion to DSD 128.

 

Is there a reason for it?

 

As per my earlier post and your replies, it would seem that the file size should be halved from DSD 256 to DSD 128.

 

Thanks

 

I've converted DSD 256 files to DSD 128 and the resulting files have always been smaller. I wonder if your DSD 256 files are in compressed DSD format (DST).

[mikey8811]

Just now, kumakuma said:

 

I've converted DSD 256 files to DSD 128 and the resulting files have always been smaller. I wonder if your DSD 256 files are in compressed DSD format (DST).

 

How do I tell?

 

Just to try, I converted to DSD 64. Same file size as DSD 128 - ridiculously large.

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, mikey8811 said:

 

How do I tell?

 

Just to try, I converted to DSD 64. Same file size as DSD 128 - ridiculously large.

 

That's pretty strange. I could be wrong but it sounds like the conversion settings in your app may be off although I don't remember the TEAC app having a lot of settings.

[mikey8811]

53 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

That's pretty strange. I could be wrong but it sounds like the conversion settings in your app may be off although I don't remember the TEAC app having a lot of settings.

 

It doesn't have many settings - you just pick the frequency ie. 2.8 Mhz, 5.6 MHz or 11.2 MHz for DSD files and if you want them as .DFF, .DSF or WAV (and the corresponding bit rates)

 

That's pretty much it.

 

Do you use another free programme you could recommend?

[kumakuma]

21 minutes ago, mikey8811 said:

 

It doesn't have many settings - you just pick the frequency ie. 2.8 Mhz, 5.6 MHz or 11.2 MHz for DSD files and if you want them as .DFF, .DSF or WAV (and the corresponding bit rates)

 

That's pretty much it.

 

Do you use another free programme you could recommend?

 

That's what I remember about the settings.

 

I'm not aware of any free programs that can do this. I use a paid program from a company that has unfortunately stopped operations (https://www.xivero.com/xisrc/).

[mikey8811]

I resolved it - I just deleted the DSD 256 files.

 

I have a redbook CD of the same material and compared them. Turns out the DSD 256 which was about 5 Gb plus in size sounded pretty similar to the redbook at 186 Mb - less hassle and less drive space.

 

It was a pretty good recording already Sarah Vaughan's "After Hours" on Roulette (1997 Capitol CD vs High Resolution Tape Transfers DSD 256)

 

Thanks everyone

[992Sam]

I've been following the discussion here...  I too am relatively new to the digital music side of the house...  I was wondering, if I come across some disks at my local used record shop that are labeled 

 

DVD Audio, or DXD, can I expect them to play thru a latest technology transport and be read by a latest generation DAC?  (my stuff is in my signature block)?

 

separately, and moreover, even if I get rebook CD content, doesn't my DAC upsample into DSD anyway? 

[Kal Rubinson]

2 hours ago, 992Sam said:

DVD Audio, or DXD, can I expect them to play thru a latest technology transport and be read by a latest generation DAC?  (my stuff is in my signature block)?

According to the McIntosh website, your MCT500 supports SACD, CD, CD-R/RW and DVD-R; popular file formats such as AAC, AIFF, ALAC, DSD (up to DSD128), FLAC, MP3, WAV (up to 24-bit/192kHz) and WMA.  So, no.  BTW, I've never seen a DXD disc, have you?

2 hours ago, 992Sam said:

separately, and moreover, even if I get rebook CD content, doesn't my DAC upsample into DSD anyway? 

Even if it does, upsampled to DSD is not the same as DSD.

[992Sam]

18 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

According to the McIntosh website, your MCT500 supports SACD, CD, CD-R/RW and DVD-R; popular file formats such as AAC, AIFF, ALAC, DSD (up to DSD128), FLAC, MP3, WAV (up to 24-bit/192kHz) and WMA.  So, no.  BTW, I've never seen a DXD disc, have you?

Even if it does, upsampled to DSD is not the same as DSD.

 

So I saw 3 DXD disks at the used record store and want to try them out, and also a couple of DVD Audio...

 

But anyway, so here is my predicament ... I want to hold my music in my hands, don't like the idea of downloads (just sooner stream it if that's the case)... so I found a guy in NJ that has re-engineered a bunch of recordings into DVD-A, DXD and DSD..  but he said it's not possible to burn them to a disk and play back with my (or any) setup... which maker no sense to me... or is the SACD transport unable to discern the difference between an SACD recorded CD and a DSD file burned onto a CD, and just assumes it's SACD and thus only allows it thru the proprietary cable (DIN) that McIntosh uses for SACD?

 

Did I confuse you enough? 😂

[Kal Rubinson]

56 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

So I saw 3 DXD disks at the used record store and want to try them out, and also a couple of DVD Audio...

Can you provide pix or a link?  I am very curious.

57 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

But anyway, so here is my predicament ... I want to hold my music in my hands, don't like the idea of downloads (just sooner stream it if that's the case)... so I found a guy in NJ that has re-engineered a bunch of recordings into DVD-A, DXD and DSD..  

Why not all into one format?  

 

58 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

but he said it's not possible to burn them to a disk and play back with my (or any) setup... which maker no sense to me...

Why not?  You can play SACD.  I can play SACD and DVD-A.  As for DXD, it is not a standard disk format.

1 hour ago, 992Sam said:

or is the SACD transport unable to discern the difference between an SACD recorded CD and a DSD file burned onto a CD, and just assumes it's SACD and thus only allows it thru the proprietary cable (DIN) that McIntosh uses for SACD?

Can you restate that?  What is an "SACD recorded CD?"  I do not believe that a "DSD file burned onto a CD is possible.  The cable is irrelevant.

1 hour ago, 992Sam said:

Did I confuse you enough? 😂

I appreciate your effort. 

[ted_b]

DXD is not a disc format, it is a marketing term for 24 bit PCM recorded or transferred at 352.8k or 384k.  There is no disc that houses that.  It (DXD) was created, initially, to provide those with DSD masters a high resolution enough PCM container to do editing in PCM, with the thought that the resultant edited recording would be re-transferred back to DSD.  When DXD is used as the original recorded format it is often released as original PCM, too.  But I have never heard of a DXD disc.  ?

[992Sam]

8 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Can you provide pix or a link?  I am very curious.

Why not all into one format?  

 

Why not?  You can play SACD.  I can play SACD and DVD-A.  As for DXD, it is not a standard disk format.

Can you restate that?  What is an "SACD recorded CD?"  I do not believe that a "DSD file burned onto a CD is possible.  The cable is irrelevant.

I appreciate your effort. 

 

I will have to wait to get back to the store, but a quick google search turned this up..  (recorded in DXD format)

 

https://www.stenheim.com/shop/charl-du-plessis-trio

 

and this is the guy I'm talking about talking about DXD and his website where he sells content he re-mastered. (fast forward about the 6minute mark on the video)

 

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.com

 

 

[992Sam]

3 minutes ago, ted_b said:

DXD is not a disc format, it is a marketing term for 24 bit PCM recorded or transferred at 352.8k or 384k.  There is no disc that houses that.  It (DXD) was created, initially, to provide those with DSD masters a high resolution enough PCM container to do editing in PCM, with the thought that the resultant edited recording would be re-transferred back to DSD.  When DXD is used as the original recorded format it is often released as original PCM, too.  But I have never heard of a DXD disc.  ?

 

look at the first link I posted in just above response to Kal's request for a pic of a DXD format disk...  

[ted_b]

4 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

I will have to wait to get back to the store, but a quick google search turned this up..  (recorded in DXD format)

 

https://www.stenheim.com/shop/charl-du-plessis-trio

That's a cd, regardless of what sample rate it was recorded at.   You'd be better off getting a download of the original 24/352.8k files (assuming your dac can play them), but I understand you want to hold discs.  Sorry.

[992Sam]

Just now, ted_b said:

That's a cd, regardless of what sample rate it was recorded at. 

 

 

Ok so it's a "rebook" CD in terms of playback... not multi-layer 44.1 and DXD (24bit PCM)?   Guess it's marketing then..

 

I think I just have to wrap my mind around downloading DSD files and doing the thumb drive / NAS drive thing...  I just prefer old fashioned "hold them in your hands" CD's...  SACD ideally but then those about as easy to find as unicorns in the recordings I want.

[Kal Rubinson]

29 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

I will have to wait to get back to the store, but a quick google search turned this up..  (recorded in DXD format)

 

https://www.stenheim.com/shop/charl-du-plessis-trio

"Recorded in DXD format"  Very common.  In fact, most SACDs/DSD  and much of high-resolution PCM is recorded in DXD but they are not released on disc as DXD.  I doubt this is because there's no player for it.

31 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

look at the first link I posted in just above response to Kal's request for a pic of a DXD format disk...  

Ted is correct.  You are mistaken.

31 minutes ago, ted_b said:

That's a cd, regardless of what sample rate it was recorded at.   You'd be better off getting a download of the original 24/352.8k files (assuming your dac can play them), but I understand you want to hold discs.  Sorry

Correct again.

 

29 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

Ok so it's a "rebook" CD in terms of playback... not multi-layer 44.1 and DXD (24bit PCM)?   Guess it's marketing then..

Welcome to reality.

 

29 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

I think I just have to wrap my mind around downloading DSD files and doing the thumb drive / NAS drive thing...  

If you want to play this stuff in the format it was recorded, you will have to do that.

[992Sam]

brave new (to me) digital world... so much fun 🤮

[Kal Rubinson]

4 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

brave new (to me) digital world... so much fun 🤮

Let me plug my last MITR contribution as a starting point for your further efforts.  It focuses on multichannel but the general recommendations apply to stereo high resolution as well.

See:  https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-100-multichannel-merging-anubis

[992Sam]

6 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Let me plug my last MITR contribution as a starting point for your further efforts.  It focuses on multichannel but the general recommendations apply to stereo high resolution as well.

See:  https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-100-multichannel-merging-anubis

 

I'm on it... I've been looking at YouTube a bit ... some of it quite helpful.. some of it makes my eyes glaze over. 

[HenryOHenry]

On 10/2/2020 at 7:10 PM, ted_b said:

DXD is not a disc format, it is a marketing term for 24 bit PCM recorded or transferred at 352.8k or 384k.  There is no disc that houses that.  It (DXD) was created, initially, to provide those with DSD masters a high resolution enough PCM container to do editing in PCM, with the thought that the resultant edited recording would be re-transferred back to DSD.  When DXD is used as the original recorded format it is often released as original PCM, too.  But I have never heard of a DXD disc.  ?

1) My Grace SDACB supports PCM up to 384 kHz. Does that mean it can play DXD downloads from the Native DSD website? 

 

2) My DAC is not listed on Native DSD, apparently because it cannot play DSD natively even though it does play DSD. Is it likely that the DSD sound is being degraded by the DAC? The files I’ve downloaded from the website still sound wonderful, though, with two exceptions...

 

3) The exceptions are the two Reference Recordings files I bought, one in 256, the other in 128. Specifically, these are Honeck conducting Bruckner’s 9th and Beethoven’s 3rd, respectively.

 

My DAC says it can play DSD up to 256. It is connected to a 2017 MacBook Pro via USB, and it is feeding the signal to a THX AAA 789 amp. Nevertheless, to test if my setup can handle 256, I downloaded both the free 256 sampler and the 256 version of Raizes. They both played fine, so I decided to buy the 256 Honeck Bruckner 9. The file sounds like a CD skipping.

 

Thinking the problem was that my DAC was having problems playing 256 (even though it can handle the other 256 files perfectly), I made sure to buy the 128 version of the Honeck Beethoven 3. But same problem!

 

What is odd is that I now have 11 downloads from Native DSD and all the files from other labels play perfectly, whether they are 64, 128, or 256. I’m only having problems with the one label (Reference Recordings). Any thoughts as to what might be happening?

 

 

[ted_b]

31 minutes ago, HenryOHenry said:

1) My Grace SDACB supports PCM up to 384 kHz. Does that mean it can play DXD downloads from the Native DSD website? 

 

2) My DAC is not listed on Native DSD, apparently because it cannot play DSD natively even though it does play DSD. Is it likely that the DSD sound is being degraded by the DAC? The files I’ve downloaded from the website still sound wonderful, though, with two exceptions...

 

3) The exceptions are the two Reference Recordings files I bought, one in 256, the other in 128. Specifically, these are Honeck conducting Bruckner’s 9th and Beethoven’s 3rd, respectively.

 

My DAC says it can play DSD up to 256. It is connected to a 2017 MacBook Pro via USB, and it is feeding the signal to a THX AAA 789 amp. Nevertheless, to test if my setup can handle 256, I downloaded both the free 256 sampler and the 256 version of Raizes. They both played fine, so I decided to buy the 256 Honeck Bruckner 9. The file sounds like a CD skipping.

 

Thinking the problem was that my DAC was having problems playing 256 (even though it can handle the other 256 files perfectly), I made sure to buy the 128 version of the Honeck Beethoven 3. But same problem!

 

What is odd is that I now have 11 downloads from Native DSD and all the files from other labels play perfectly, whether they are 64, 128, or 256. I’m only having problems with the one label (Reference Recordings). Any thoughts as to what might be happening?

 

 

1) Yes, DXD is within the parameters of your DAC specs, so it is capable of playing our DXD downloads.

2) Not sure why the Grace SDAC Balanced is not on there, but it may not have been updated for awhile (the original idea was to create a DSD dac database, back in 2011, when there were few of them.  Now, it's easier to flag those that don't play DSD :) )  I will check further.

3) Please send a note to Jonas at Native.  He will check with the label.  I have no idea why other files play fine (you are lucky to be getting DSD256 via Mac cuz often the Mac driver is only capable of half that speed).  I will ask him also to check.