T+a dac 8 dsd

[sbenyo]

I wouldn't set too many hopes on this. We were in similar situations before.

Even if this works, it's still very far from T+A adopting it, completing their tests and issuing an update that wouldn't require shipping to them. I am not sure at all that it's worth the effort for them.

 

I can only hope that if it does work on Amanero side, T+A would not refuse it. Even if it will cost them, they should think of all the people that don't buy their flagship DAC because of the Linux limitation. Today there are far more Linux options for streaming than Windows and not everyone can invest in an expensive high-end PC for 512 up sampling.

 

Fingers crossed. Hopes are still very low.

 

[guiltyboxswapper]

@sbenyo 2003BE wasn't too far off - the glitch issue in my case would only occur every few hours, and simply stopping and starting the stream would fix it.  This was on an LKS 004 using its Amanero USB module.

 

If the firmware proves stable on the LKS, it is actually possible to update your own T+A unit, and will do so myself.  Basically you short 2 locations with a 50 ohm resistor, which then erases the Amanero flash storage.  Grab the Amanero flashing utility, plug into USB after shorting, and start uploading the necessary firmwares.    Under 20mins operation.

 

If in the event you still dont agree with the new firmware, you can ofcourse install the old (1096) firmware following the same shorting process, though you'll need to install the Amanero Windows driver, not the T+A's as the PID/VIDs get reset back to stock Amanero.

 

For those not as brave - you'll have to wait for T+A ?

[sbenyo]

Unfortunately, I don't believe T+A will vouch for this process even if it's simple and works.

It will probably revoke warranty. I wish T+A will provide a process we can do on our own that does not revoke warranty

[guiltyboxswapper]

@sbenyo  probably won't vouch, but this process is from their own service manual.  It's virtually the same process as the standard Amanero USB card apart from different PCB location + need for resistor.

[sbenyo]

If it's on the service manual there may still be some hope! ?

Let's cross fingers and hope it will first work and then see what's the decision on updates. Thanks for the information.

 

[louisxiawei]

Meanwhile you guys are waiting for uncertain linux DSD512 support for DAC8 DSD?, I would like to report another issue of T+A DAC8 DSD that annoyed me for quite a while.

 

This issue is mainly about the "very faint pop" or "static sound" during playback of one certain rate 24.576M (DSD512 x 48), and some of other DAC8 DSD users I know can also confirm this "pop" issue existed.

 

The "pop" sound is so faint that only using headphones can detect it when you listen to some quiet, peaceful music tracks. If you use loudspeakers or listen to some loud dynamic music,  the pop sound will probably be disguised. 

 

I mainly use HQplayer to upsampling everything to DSD512 to the DAC using "Auto rate family", and found that all 48k base file can cause the "pop" sound. But situation varies:

• 48/24 to DSD512 x48 has the most frequent pop sound (using any filters such as poly-sinc, poly-sinc-xtr, or any 2s filters like poly-sinc-2s)
• 96/24 to DSD512 x48 gets better, pop occurred much less frequently, but still have a few during one track (using any filters such as poly-sinc, poly-sinc-xtr, or any 2s filters like poly-sinc-2s)
• 192/24 to DSD512 x48 has the least frequent pop sound, sometimes you can detect none pop during a very short-time track (using any filters such as poly-sinc, poly-sinc-xtr, or any 2s filters like poly-sinc-2s)

The pop sound does NOT occur when:

• any 44.1K base file to 44.1 x DSD512 (using any non-2s or 2s flters)
• any 48k base file to 48 x DSD256 (using any non-2s or 2s filters)

I've eliminated a few potential causes for this "faint pop sound":

• the pop cannot be caused by incapability of my CPU for processing HQplayer since I use 7980XE and poly-sinc-2s filter can even cause the 48K→48x512 upsampling to have a pop sound
• I've also discussed with @Miska already. With his test, it's also not a HQplayer's problem.
• I've also reinstalled my entire windows OS (windows 10 pro for workstation) just in case some of my background process or software messed around the latency for streaming music, but the problem still existed afterwards. Plus some of the DAC8 DSD users I know running HQplayer on neat windows 7 can also spot the pop sound, which indicates the issue might not caused by the operating system.

So the problem can only be caused by the DAC8 DSD itself, I was told that it is likely the Amanero USB interface of DAC8 DSD is acting up at DSD512 x 48 rate since similar issue happened from some XMOS problems or other DACs have had.

I've attached a 48/24 track, and would like to invite the DAC8 DSD users to try it out. In this track, you will probably spot a few "faint pop" sound in the first 20 seconds of the track on your "right channel".

If the problem does exist widely among DAC8 DSD users, then we can be confident enough to report this issue to T+A.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

03. Hedwig's Theme (From “Harry Potter And The Sorcerer's Stone”).flac

[blue2]

10 hours ago, louisxiawei said:

 

… So the problem can only be caused by the DAC8 DSD itself, I was told that it is likely the Amanero USB interface of DAC8 DSD is acting up at DSD512 x 48 rate since similar issue happened from some XMOS problems or other DACs have had ...


 

You'd want to try the track with another DSD512 DAC (non-Amanero USB) and not hear the pops to be sure of this statement!

 

PS for those tempted to try this test and report back you will need HQPlayer and a Windows PC capable of upsampling to DSD512 x 48 as the attachment is a PCM file.

[guiltyboxswapper]

Can confirm I have heard a pop on the right channel within first 20 seconds or so, when DAC is in x48 512 mode.  As you mentioned only on quiet passages do I hear this pop, and its infrequent. 

[asdf1000]

11 hours ago, louisxiawei said:

I've eliminated a few potential causes for this "faint pop sound"

 

Just to rule it out (for the feel good factor) did you try without any USB conditioners in the path - i.e. just a direct USB cable from PC to DAC? I see a REGEN in your signature.

 

And do you know for sure (from T + A themselves) if the DSD512x48 sample rate is officially supported by this DAC? If they say no, then that's the end of it.

 

I know the iDSD and Pro-Ject S2 DAC and other cheap DACs do support 512x48 so you would expect the T+A DAC to also support it, but it's possible it doesn't.

 

Just thinking out loud.

[louisxiawei]

1 hour ago, blue2 said:

 

You'd want to try the track with another DSD512 DAC (non-Amanero USB) and not hear the pops to be sure of this statement!

That's a little difficult for a normal customer.  As far as I know, there are really limited number of dacs supporting 48 x 512 rate out there , and I'm not owning a DAC shop. It's an assumption with convincing test results rather than a solid statement. The reason I did that last post is: I'm not totally sure and want to gather more information before taking further action and report it back to T+A.

 

I have ifi micro dsd BL, which supports 48 x 512 only on linux OS. I cannot test it myself since I only have windows OS installed but Miska tested it for me and reporting back that no pop during 48 x 512 playback. (Interestingly, he also did not detect any pop during 48 x DSD 512 rate playback.)

[louisxiawei]

8 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Just to rule it out (for the feel good factor) did you try without any USB conditioners in the path - i.e. just a direct USB cable from PC to DAC? I see a REGEN in your signature.

 

Yes, just direct USB cable from PC to DAC. I took the ISO-REGEN out during the test.

10 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

And do you know for sure (from T + A themselves) if the DSD512x48 sample rate is officially supported by this DAC? If they say no, then that's the end of it.

I know the iDSD and Pro-Ject S2 DAC and other cheap DACs do support 512x48 so you would expect the T+A DAC to also support it, but it's possible it doesn't.

 

Yes, it does support 24.6M (DSD512 x 48). It is clearly written on its manual.

 

[asdf1000]

Just now, louisxiawei said:

 

Yes, just direct USB cable from PC to DAC. I took the ISO-REGEN out during the test.

 

Yes, it does support 24.6M (DSD512 x 48). It is clearly written on its manual.

 

 

 

Ok thanks for confirming. You have everything checked and double checked. 

 

 

 

[blue2]

7 hours ago, louisxiawei said:

That's a little difficult for a normal customer.  As far as I know, there are really limited number of dacs supporting 48 x 512 rate out there , and I'm not owning a DAC shop. It's an assumption with convincing test results rather than a solid statement. The reason I did that last post is: I'm not totally sure and want to gather more information before taking further action and report it back to T+A.

 

I have ifi micro dsd BL, which supports 48 x 512 only on linux OS. I cannot test it myself since I only have windows OS installed but Miska tested it for me and reporting back that no pop during 48 x 512 playback. (Interestingly, he also did not detect any pop during 48 x DSD 512 rate playback.)

If you accept this result, and why not, then the problem is with your hardware not specifically a T+A DAC 8 DSD problem.

 

To narrow it down you could install Linux on a separate partition on your Windows PC and see how the ifi plays the test track.

 

Getting others to confirm your finding may need a large number of participants if only a small percentage of T+A's are affected - unless it's an Amenero firmware problem but Miska's test seems to refute that.

[blue2]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 12:44 PM, bibo01 said:

Update - I have spoken to Amanero today. Unfortunately, last week he was in London for an important job, so no work was done, but this week he's aiming to release 2004BE firmware for Linux. He is confident that distortion and channel swapping are solved. Apparently, he is going to use one DMA channel only. Previosly he was using two channels and they were going out of sync because on-board cpu was nor able to keep up. After release there will be a round of tests on github. Fingers crossed again.

OK that's progress but my question is still not answered. Why does the firmware work OK with Windows but with Linux he uses 2 DMA channels which the CPU can't service quickly enough?

[Miska]

In any case, it is quite challenging for Windows with the current driver. Current driver uses fixed buffer size of 32768 bits (4096 bytes - one page). At 24.6 MHz sampling rate, this buffer is shortest in time, just 32768/(48000*512) = 1.333 ms. I suspect this is part of the problem...

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, blue2 said:

OK that's progress but my question is still not answered. Why does the firmware work OK with Windows but with Linux he uses 2 DMA channels which the CPU can't service quickly enough?

 

For example some people insisted to have big-endian DSD byte order for Linux (while PCM is little-endian) because they were too lazy to modify their Linux application to support also little-endian DSD byte order... Swapping byte order on PC is really quick and unnoticeable load, but for a small MCU like the one on Amanero it is notable extra work (or the CPLD firmware will need notable reworks).

 

[louisxiawei]

4 hours ago, blue2 said:

If you accept this result, and why not, then the problem is with your hardware not specifically a T+A DAC 8 DSD problem.

I see you have difficultly understanding things. Can't you see my test results? There are three factors causing the problem: PC, HQplayer, DAC8 DSD. I've eliminated two (PC and HQplayer) by having people do the test . What is left? Think harder!

 

 I'm not alone hearing the faint pop noise. So far, I have at least 10 DAC8 DSD users with me spotting  the same problem, and they use different PC hardware, OS system with same HQplayer settings unless you keep arguing their PC are all defective, all their DAC8 DSD are faulty.

 

Quote

To narrow it down you could install Linux on a separate partition on your Windows PC and see how the ifi plays the test track.

 

I don't see the logic. T+A can only support DSD512 on WINDOWS while ifi can do DSD512 x 48 only on Linux! 

 

If Proving ifi is working fine can  suggest my PC is working well, which I already know. Do you think it will make any sense telling T+A that if IFI can stream DSD512 x 48 on LINUX without a pop, then it's your DAC8 DSD's problem to stream DSD512 x 48 on WINDOWS with a pop? 

 

Quote

unless it's an Amenero firmware problem but Miska's test seems to refute that

So far, Miska is the only one I know cannot detect the faint pop.

 

Quote

Getting others to confirm your finding may need a large number of participants if only a small percentage of T+A's are affected -

To be honest, I think even 10 people hearing the pop noise is enough convincing. I just want to get more information on CA since people here have more chance to use HQplayer to stream 48 x 512. I know many other DAC8 DSD users, they don't even bother using HQplayer with it.

 

My question for you is: Do you have a DAC8 DSD? Can you do the quick test? If the answer is no, then you are not helping at all but doing the pointless defense for DAC8 DSD.

[juanitox]

Quote

The "pop" sound is so faint that only using headphones can detect it when you listen to some quiet, peaceful music tracks. If you use loudspeakers or listen to some loud dynamic music,  the pop sound will probably be disguised. 

 

i don't hear anything  head in my horn with windows 10 , 48 to DSD512  polysinc ASDM7.  the only erratic pop i have is when the sample rate is changing between 44 to 48 or 96. but nothing to start a PopGate. ?

[asdf1000]

25 minutes ago, juanitox said:

i don't hear anything  head in my horn

 

Can we have a photo please ?

[louisxiawei]

53 minutes ago, juanitox said:

 

i don't hear anything  head in my horn with windows 10 , 48 to DSD512  polysinc ASDM7.  the only erratic pop i have is when the sample rate is changing between 44 to 48 or 96. but nothing to start a PopGate. ?

Thanks for testing.

 

As I mentioned, speaker system is quite difficult to detect the faint pop since there is a certain distance between your listening spot and speakers. So some speaker users don’t even bother the issue.

 

It’s not like a playback stutter caused by insufficient CPU capability when you upsample non-integer rate like 44.1 -> 48 x 512. It’s more like a static noise pops infrequently hidden at the background while the music flows.

 

I have one friend put his ear right close to the right channel of the speaker and then be able to detect the faint pop.

[emcdade]

On 5/28/2018 at 2:05 AM, emcdade said:

It appears I'm a good candidate for this DAC.  I already have a powerful computer in my office that I use as my server (i7 2600k at 4.8ghz and a GTX 970) running Roon server and already have a Windows computer in my lounge that I use for an HTPC.  A couple of questions:

 

1.  Is this DAC still considered a leader in its price class when running DSD 512?

2.  Will my PC upsample to 512 without dropouts?  Nothing ruins the experience for me like skipping/stuttering tracks.

 

3.  I replaced with PC in the lounge with an SMS-200 and Sbooster and I noticed a fairly large jump in sound quality last year (much softer, less glare, more clarity).  This makes me very hesitant to go back to a standard PC's usb ouput.  What do you consider the best bang for the buck device to improve computer USB and make it similar to the SMS-200, for say under $500?

 

Thanks for any help!

 

Well I decided to take the leap and ordered the T+A Dac over a Vega G2.  Having the bulk of the PC hardware needed for this by happenstance put me onto the T+A.

 

To prepare myself I took the SMS-200 out of the loop tonight and went back to PC playback into my Fostex DAC.  Ughhhhh, it is just not as good as that little SOTM renderer.  On a whim I ordered the Matrix PCI-e USB card, and can power it with my Sbooster 9v supply.  It looks pretty decent for $150 http://matrix-digi.com/en/products/159/index.html#page4.  I wanted to at least try this before adding endless dongles and power supplies.

 

We'll see how it goes!  Definitely going to hold onto my SMS-200 for now and see how this firmware situation turns out.

[emcdade]

Also, has anyone tried Roon’s new DSD 512 upsampling vs. HQplayer?

 

 

[blue2]

7 hours ago, louisxiawei said:

I see you have difficultly understanding things. Can't you see my test results? There are three factors causing the problem: PC, HQplayer, DAC8 DSD. I've eliminated two (PC and HQplayer) by having people do the test . What is left? Think harder!

 

 I'm not alone hearing the faint pop noise. So far, I have at least 10 DAC8 DSD users with me spotting  the same problem, and they use different PC hardware, OS system with same HQplayer settings unless you keep arguing their PC are all defective, all their DAC8 DSD are faulty.

 

 

I don't see the logic. T+A can only support DSD512 on WINDOWS while ifi can do DSD512 x 48 only on Linux! 

 

If Proving ifi is working fine can  suggest my PC is working well, which I already know. Do you think it will make any sense telling T+A that if IFI can stream DSD512 x 48 on LINUX without a pop, then it's your DAC8 DSD's problem to stream DSD512 x 48 on WINDOWS with a pop? 

 

So far, Miska is the only one I know cannot detect the faint pop.

No need to be insulting! You haven't published any test results and no mention of others finding the 'pop' prior to my post. If you really have 10 independent confirmed results granted that is significant, but you have to also state how many have found no 'pops'. 10 positives could be 0.01% failure rate on the T+A hardware.

 

If your ifi 'pops' with your test track at DSD512 x 48 under Linux on your PC then it could be your PC/USB is causing the problem.

 

Maybe you need to think harder!!

[louisxiawei]

31 minutes ago, blue2 said:

No need to be insulting! You haven't published any test results and no mention of others finding the 'pop' prior to my post. If you really have 10 independent confirmed results granted that is significant, but you have to also state how many have found no 'pops'. 10 positives could be 0.01% failure rate on the T+A hardware.

 

If your ifi 'pops' with your test track at DSD512 x 48 under Linux on your PC then it could be your PC/USB is causing the problem.

 

Maybe you need to think harder!!

No interest discussing with a fragile person thinking I was insulting him. Have fun with your ridiculous logic.

[louisxiawei]

Just want to add another comment and hope this can also suggest a bit more regarding this "faint pop" issue. 

 

I also have Logic CL100 as windows NAA streaming music from my 7980XE HQ PC to the DAC8 DSD. That was the original HQplayer end-point device I found the "faint" pop sound. 

 

Of course one can say that my newly built HQplayer PC and Logic CL100 NAA both have issue now. What are the odds? 

 

I also tried to recall my previous experience regarding the 48 x 512 playback since I purchased the DAC8 DSD more than a year ago but found the problem till now. I've checked the track playback history of Roon, found myself barely owning or playing any 48/24 files before, and the only 48K base files sit in my previous library are some 192/24 albums which can hardly detect the faint pop as I reported previously.