Jitter problem

[Abtr]

Rubbish. Obviously you are one of the "bits are bits" brigade, and believe that nothing else matters as long as the correct sequence of 1s and 0s is exported.

Well, that's obviously not what I believe. Why do you think I bought an Intona and Regen (and these do make an audible difference) if that was my conviction?

 

Even a cheap $30 ebay 40uV low noise regulated PSU supplied from the +12V rail and outputting a much cleaner +5V to an internal SSD can result in a worthwhile improvement in SQ. In a typical Windows PC for example, even replacing needlessly long generic SATA cables with the shortest possible SATA3 6GB/s cables with their 2 internal screened cables can result in an audibly lower noise floor.

I suppose that may be true for a direct 'untreated' USB connection between MacMini and DDC/DAC. But with AQVOX/Intona/Regen in the chain, it should be impossible that such tweaks make a difference at the output of the Regen. As I said, the Regen only sees the Intona USB and AQFOX 5V..

[sandyk]

I suppose that may be true for a direct 'untreated' USB connection between MacMini and DDC/DAC. But with AQVOX/Intona/Regen in the chain, it should be impossible that such tweaks make a difference at the output of the Regen. As I said, the Regen only sees the Intona USB and AQFOX 5V..

 

Yet once again you are assuming that an Intona or USB Regen can later on correct deficiencies at the ripping stage to an internal SSD, or even a USB memory stick. It can't, no matter what some here may try to tell you.

I can save ripped .wav files directly to a USB memory stick, with and without a USB Regen in line, and the files ripped to the USB memory stick with the Regen in line sound better than those saved to the USB memory stick without a Regen.

If I then play back both versions via Coax SPDIF with the Regen in line, the files saved without the Regen in line don't improve much, if at all. However the .wav files saved with the Regen in line, and played back with the Regen in line sound quite a bit better.

 

I can then take the USB memory stick to my Oppo 103's USB port and play them with the Regen in line powered by either a linear PSU or a battery derived PSU, and those created using the Regen in line originally, sound markedly better.

I have also been able to demo this at a friend's house through his Oppo 95. Both versions on the USB memory stick are bit identical, as evidenced by their md5 checksums.

 

Alex

 

P.S.

The USB cable has the +5V disconnected at the PC/Oppo end of the cable.

[Cornan]

I can see your point Abtr....and Sandyk's as well! :-)

In my former setup using a Windows 10 pc with JplayStreamer (openhome)>Fildelizer Pro>Process Lasso controlled via BubbleDS Next I barley noticed any change in SQ when powering my laptop with a good LPS. Still noticable...but not enough to be worthwhile in my case. However, I was (and still are) powering the USB Regen with Hifi grade battery supply and using NO 5v at all in my USB cables before and after the Regen plus having good power cables, power filters and ground enhancer. In the same setup I clearly noticed a bigger difference changing the control point from Kazoo to BubbleDS Next (the better one). I guess that was due to the Ethernet transmission and needs to be addressed equally to minimize impact.

[Abtr]

I can see your point Abtr....and Sandyk's as well! :-)

Well, that's a contradiction. It's impossible that the bits of any audio file (not necessarily a ripped CD file) somehow sound better when the file was saved on a storage device with an LPS and/or through a Regen. Bits are bits in this sense; writing or reading bits to or from a file is a truly bit perfect process. Only when bit perfect audio files are streamed into a DAC via USB problems may arise, which appear to be primarily related to (re)clocking and preventing electrical (5V) noise from the computer entering the DAC's analogue stage.

 

In my former setup using a Windows 10 pc with JplayStreamer (openhome)>Fildelizer Pro>Process Lasso controlled via BubbleDS Next I barley noticed any change in SQ when powering my laptop with a good LPS. Still noticable...but not enough to be worthwhile in my case. However, I was (and still are) powering the USB Regen with Hifi grade battery supply and using NO 5v at all in my USB cables before and after the Regen plus having good power cables, power filters and ground enhancer. In the same setup I clearly noticed a bigger difference changing the control point from Kazoo to BubbleDS Next (the better one). I guess that was due to the Ethernet transmission and needs to be addressed equally to minimize impact.

Yes, I suppose the Regen and probably the entire audio system might benefit from linear regulated PS. But a "ground enhancer"? Really..?

[Cornan]

Well, that's a contradiction. It's impossible that the bits of any audio file (not necessarily a ripped CD file) somehow sound better when the file was saved on a storage device with an LPS and/or through a Regen. Bits are bits in this sense; writing or reading bits to or from a file is a truly bit perfect process. Only when bit perfect audio files are streamed into a DAC via USB problems may arise, which appear to be primarily related to (re)clocking and preventing electrical (5V) noise from the computer entering the DAC's analogue stage.

 

 

Yes, I suppose the Regen and probably the entire audio system might benefit from linear regulated PS. But a "ground enhancer"? Really..?

 

Sorry, but as Sandyk I am not a bits-are-bits-believer. IMO there are no way for bits to be transfered completely unaltered through any kind of system..analogue or digital. The problem is many but the worst one IMO is capasitive coupling which is not only present in any powered device in this earth...but inside any cable as well. The most well made audio devices and cables can only limit the effect...but not remove it alltogether. It is just a battle how much it can be reduced. Remember that all audio devices and cables uses current. Remember that all digital cables are using analogue data+ and data- wires that is also powered by current somewere down the line. That is why everything matters for the final result....especially power- and ground related improvements. Ground enhancer like Entreq Minimus that I personally use is one of my best "tweaks" ever to get rid of the digital glare and bring the digital music to life! Vastly better improvement than USB Regen could bring to my own setup. Still, Regen does enough good to be a keeper.

[mansr]

Sorry, but as Sandyk I am not a bits-are-bits-believer.

 

The great thing about facts is that they are true even if you don't believe in them.

[sandyk]

The great thing about facts is that they are true even if you don't believe in them.

 

Facts ? A Fact is something that can't be disproved. Presently accepted theory isn't always correct, and in this case can readily be disproved using Double Blind testing and those things either side of your head called EARS.

[Cornan]

The great thing about facts is that they are true even if you don't believe in them.

Let's requote:

The great thing about facts is that they are true if you believe in them.

Works just as good! ;-)

Facts is just knowledge that can be found true and revised when ever new science comes around! :-)

[Abtr]

It can simply be determined as a fact that two digital audio files or streams are the same. If all bits and checksums are identical, then the files contain the exact same digital information and consequently must sound exactly the same when played back through the same audio system. This is both true in theory and it is a verifyable empirical fact, period. Anyone who thinks or argues that this is not true must believe in magic or is simply trolling the forum with provocative nonsense. Actually, I think the latter option is the most likely..

[Cornan]

Mr nice guy I pressume?

IMO you will never ever achieve the real truth with any kind of audio file! If you want to come real close to the truth you will need to play the files with the very same system as used when the track was recorded...but it will still not be the real truth since it was effected while recorded. In theory and in a perfect world bits and checksums are identical. In real world it is affected by the sorroudings. Remember that what you hear in real life is not the real truth either. It is all altered soundwaves.

You have all the right to believe that bits-are-bits. I am not judging anyone here. Just sharing my beliefs...believe it or not! ;-)

[Abtr]

IMO you will never ever achieve the real truth with any kind of audio file!

Yes, but that's not Sandyk's point at all.

 

If you want to come real close to the truth you will need to play the files with the very same system as used when the track was recorded...but it will still not be the real truth since it was effected while recorded.

That's nonsense. You can't play back (digital) audio through a recording system.

 

In theory and in a perfect world bits and checksums are identical. In real world it is affected by the sorroudings.

Are you saying that copying a file is not a bit perfect operation? That's absurd. All computer software would instantly crash without absolute bit perfect storage and operation.

 

Remember that what you hear in real life is not the real truth either. It is all altered soundwaves.

You have all the right to believe that bits-are-bits. I am not judging anyone here. Just sharing my beliefs...believe it or not! ;-)

This is again a completely nonsensical argument that doesn't begin to disprove that identical copies of any given digital audio file will sound exactly the same when played back over the same system, which is a simple logical and experiential fact that anyone can understand and verify.

[davide256]

Mr nice guy I pressume?

IMO you will never ever achieve the real truth with any kind of audio file! If you want to come real close to the truth you will need to play the files with the very same system as used when the track was recorded...but it will still not be the real truth since it was effected while recorded. In theory and in a perfect world bits and checksums are identical. In real world it is affected by the sorroudings. Remember that what you hear in real life is not the real truth either. It is all altered soundwaves.

You have all the right to believe that bits-are-bits. I am not judging anyone here. Just sharing my beliefs...believe it or not! ;-)

 

???

 

What the audio hobby is about is optimal vs imperfect retrieval from recorded media. I can play recorded media in my living room but I cannot afford or fit the Chicago symphony orchestra in my living room. And there is no "instant replay" with live performance. And I think the system I have far exceeds the capabilities of Mohr, Layton and Pfeiffer in their time period recording studios

[Cornan]

Yes, but that's not Sandyk's point at all.

 

No, it was actually your point I addressed. Quote: If all bits and checksums are identical, then the files contain the exact same digital information and consequently must sound exactly the same when played back through the same audio system.

 

 

That's nonsense. You can't play back (digital) audio through a recording system.

 

I did´nt say you could but hypotheticly if you reverse the sound in the same system it comes out identically.

 

 

Are you saying that copying a file is not a bit perfect operation? That's absurd. All computer software would instantly crash without absolute bit perfect storage and operation.

 

No, I am not saying that copying a file is not a bit perfect operation. It is...but the final result is depending on the power related surroundings in cables & hardware. The bits are powered by current and affected by current.

 

 

This is again a completely nonsensical argument that doesn't begin to disprove that identical copies of any given digital audio file will sound exactly the same when played back over the same system, which is a simple logical and experiential fact that anyone can understand and verify.

 

This is just me quickly trying to explain that the surroundings affects the end-result. Anyway, IMO similar natural "laws" applies to bits. The surrounding current affects the bits...enough to be noticable by the human ear.

[davide256]

It can simply be determined as a fact that two digital audio files or streams are the same. If all bits and checksums are identical, then the files contain the exact same digital information and consequently must sound exactly the same when played back through the same audio system. This is both true in theory and it is a verifyable empirical fact, period. Anyone who thinks or argues that this is not true must believe in magic or is simply trolling the forum with provocative nonsense. Actually, I think the latter option is the most likely..

 

Agree from a data source perspective. The problem is correct timing for delivery to D/A conversion. Digital solutions have MOBO bus/ power supply contention affecting sample time arrival accuracy for I/O to DAC.

[Cornan]

???

 

What the audio hobby is about is optimal vs imperfect retrieval from recorded media. I can play recorded media in my living room but I cannot afford or fit the Chicago symphony orchestra in my living room. And there is no "instant replay" with live performance. And I think the system I have far exceeds the capabilities of Mohr, Layton and Pfeiffer in their time period recording studios

 

Yes, that is also my point. When it comes to bits it is affected by surrounding currents while soundwaves are mainly affected by physical surroundings.

[mansr]

Agree from a data source perspective. The problem is correct timing for delivery to D/A conversion. Digital solutions have MOBO bus/ power supply contention affecting sample time arrival accuracy for I/O to DAC.

 

That's why any half-decent DAC these days has a buffer and a local clock.

[sandyk]

It can simply be determined as a fact that two digital audio files or streams are the same. If all bits and checksums are identical, then the files contain the exact same digital information and consequently must sound exactly the same when played back through the same audio system. This is both true in theory and it is a verifyable empirical fact, period. Anyone who thinks or argues that this is not true must believe in magic or is simply trolling the forum with provocative nonsense. Actually, I think the latter option is the most likely..

 

Audio Networking: A potpourri of computer network audio findings, including updates on the Naim UnitiServe, gigabit switches, CAT 5/6 cable and ripping issues. Review By Martin Colloms See the last section.

 

There were 6 separate positive Blind A/B/A 3 minute sessions performed over a period of several months.

The various relevant HFC forum threads are currently not available due to illegal access by members of a disgustingly foul forum called " snakeoil".

 

P.S.

I see that you also don't believe that a Mac Mini can have it's SQ improved with the use of a Linear PSU such as the JS2 designed by John Swenson, despite the numerous threads and posts to the contrary in this forum, yet you use a USB Regen designed by John !

[Abtr]

This is just me quickly trying to explain that the surroundings affects the end-result. Anyway, IMO similar natural "laws" applies to bits. The surrounding current affects the bits...enough to be noticable by the human ear.

If you mean the analogue encoding of a bit-stream in a USB signal, yes that's of course affected by surrounding currents and noise and timing. Yet, in the same system, identical files will still sound the same. What I do not agree with is Sandyk's statement that identical files (bit perfect copies of eachother) that are saved under different electrical conditions will sound differently when played back through exactly the same system, that is, he suggests that somehow bits can be saved differentially to a storage medium such that this in itself will result in audible differences between otherwise identical audio files. That simply can't be true.

[alfe]

Some info about jitter and more:

 

http://www2.electron.frba.utn.edu.ar/~jcecconi/Bibliografia/13%20-%20Medicion%20de%20Amplificadores/Documentos/AudioPrecision_AN5_DigitalAudioMeasurement.pdf

[alfe]

There is no storage media that store bits

[alfe]

I have few questions can anybody help?

How an opto-electronic integrated circuit works?

How an ADC works?

Do storage medium use an ADC?

What happen to the jitter created by an ADC?

Do jitter influence the checksum?

[YashN]

That simply can't be true.

 

List all the places where analogue is lurking behind 'digital' in our chain and then you can start to think of plausible explanations.

 

or check the 'Beyond Bit-perfect' thread.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

There is no storage media that store bits

Ok, I'll bite. So, what am I getting when I buy a hard drive, a thumb drive, RAM, etc? What do they store if not bits?

 

Let's also remember that bits, and all digital, are an abstraction. Bits are an encoding scheme devised by humans, not entites that exist in nature. However, certain naturally occurring materials have properties that lend themselves to the storage of two-state, binary bits in the design and engineering of digital systems.

 

A major example is magnetism, which can be polarized in only one of two possible ways. So, if you look closely at the magnetic domains on a hard drive, their polarization is unambiguously interpretable as either a zero or a one, nothing else, based on consistent standards established for the digital storage system. (Note that it is very difficult to completely "demagnetize" a previously magnetized material. "Degaussing" to "erase" magnetic domains and bit encoding is just really randomly scrambling the polarities of the magnetic domains in an externally applied, high intensity, variable magnetic field. It does not turn N-S or S-N polarities to a state of no magnetism at the magnetic domain level.)

 

An older, simpler example is the punched "IBM" card - remember those? The card was specified as having a format consisting of 80 columns and 12 rows. At each of those locations on the card, if it was punched out = a small rectangular hole, that signified a one. If it was not punched through at that location, that signified a zero. Those zero/one values could be sensed mechanically or optically or even visually. As long as the card was aligned properly in punching and reading operations, the individual binary bit values were clear and unambiguous.

 

The list of digital systems carefully engineered for the reliable, persistent, unambiguous storage of bits could go on and on.

[Abtr]

... How an opto-electronic integrated circuit works?

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optoelectronics

 

How an ADC works?

By periodically sampling an analogue signal and translating the measured voltage values to some binary format.

 

Do storage medium use an ADC?

No.

 

What happen to the jitter created by an ADC?

That's actually the worst kind of jitter because it gets encoded in the binary format.

 

Do jitter influence the checksum?

Coming from an ADC, yes. Coming from a storage device or a DAC, no..

[Abtr]

List all the places where analogue is lurking behind 'digital' in our chain and then you can start to think of plausible explanations.

 

or check the 'Beyond Bit-perfect' thread.

There is no explanation for 2 identical digital audio files with identical checksums sounding different when played back via the exact same audio system. Basically because it doesn't happen..