We don't need no stinking hi-rez

[Teresa]

The subjectives here will come up with a zillion lame excuses why ABX-DBT tests are completely flawed and irrelevant. Truth is that in the vast majority of times their claims have be tested, they failed and don't want any part of being held to any scientific evaluation.

 

…even though double blind tests are considered the gold standard, along with measurements, of scientific testing.

 

They are not excuses but scientific reasons why any type or AB’ing (either sighted or blind) fails to reveal any differences except gigantic ones, using any of our five main senses.

 

Double blind tests are not the gold standard, since their results suggest there is no statistical difference in nearly everything. They only work in medicine as it removes human decision making.

 

Double blind tests work in drug testing as the human subjects don't have to make any decisions whatsoever. The subjects either are given the real medicine or a sugar pill. Those who get well taking the sugar pill do so as unconsciously their believe the medicine is real thus their antibodies manage to kill the disease, this is known as the placebo effect. If considerably more people get well with the new drug than with the sugar pill, the drug is considered effective. None of our senses come into play in this type of test.

 

Measurements and scientific testing are important as they ensure products work correctly, but they don’t give a clue to how they actually sound.

 

There are Joe Averages that due to lack of exposure and training couldn't pick out the difference between a 8 track tape and 24/96 SOTA file.

 

Then there are those who have spend many years as Hi Fi enthusiasts and have learned to listen deeper into the music and hear many of the finer points in music reproduction.

 

I would imagine most people (including objectivist and subjectivist audiophiles) would have a hard time AB’ing between the 8 track tape and 24/96 SOTA file you mentioned unless the they heard the click of the track change on the 8 track tape because comparing is not how people listen to music. The right brain experiences stimuli including music, while the left brain is analytical, that is why trying to analyze music is so hard because it is unnatural. However, under normal listening (non-comparing) conditions the 8 track tape might sound like crap and the 24/96 might sound superb.

 

Audiophiles and music lovers learn to listen deeper into the music but it does not follow that they can quantify it or compare it analytically.

 

And then there are the so called Golden Ears that will spend $3K on a 6 foot power cable or $15K on two 10 foot speaker cables…

 

Those are not typical audiophiles, if you said $1 to $10 per foot for speaker cables you would be closer. No, this is the wealthy who like to impress by cost instead of savings.

 

Five "human" things ensure why sighted or blind A/B testing fails to reveal statistical differences between nearly everything:

• Cognitive bias - your brain will fill in missing information thus making both samples sound the same on repeated listening.
  Listener Fatigue - switch back and forth too often and both music files will sound like crap.
  
• Accumulative effects are hidden - Accumulative effects on sound quality increase over time and remain hidden when switching back and forth between two music files, especially things such as strident/smooth, cold/warm sound, etc.
  
• Soundstage and instrument placement - it takes anywhere between 30 seconds to several minutes for my brain to map the soundstage and hear the instrument and vocal placement before I can judge anything. A/B'ing insures this never happens.
  
• Confirmation Bias - In addition sighted A/B testing has to fight confirmation bias, as some people think the major brand or more expensive item must sound better. This is not always true as sometimes the unknown brand or the least expensive item sounds the best.
  

Sal, have you ever A/B’ed anything (sighted or blind)? It’s harder than hell, even with things that sound very different, such as speakers. For the majority of people I would say impossible.

 

The only way I’ve discovered to get a handle on how something sounds is listening to it using a few select complete uninterrupted songs from my music collection with the lights turned out. Or if at a dealer with with lights turned low, if they can’t turn them out, and the salesman must leave the room while I listen in comfort.

[wwaldmanfan]

Don't think I'd recommend the $1.32 cable, as a data transmission cable it would probably sound just fine but I would have some concerns over it's durability and would like to inspect it first. If gauge or termination look questionable, a buck thirty two in the garbage is no big issue.

Also I do believe that cables can make a difference. But there are well known technical specs for all applications that guarantee flawless signal transfer.

I may have exaggerated on $50 being obscene but for sure it's at the limit of what needs to be spent.

Audioquest for example lists 5 USB cables starting at $35 and then doubling in cost for each step up ending (I think) at $549, and that's in their shortest lengths, probably 0.5 meter. How can that be justified? It can't without some form of rigid scientific testing. But in any event $35 is reasonable and at some point on the way to $549 it for sure becomes obscene and pure snake oil gouging.

 

So, now that $35 is reasonable, is $50 still ridiculous and lunatic? Why are you backtracking on your previous statements? Oh, the $1.32 cable with the wrong plug might not be so good, after all.

 

I was not shilling for the Kimber Kable; We were discussing the ferrites with Miska, someone here who may know a little about Computer Audio, and I was merely relating my own experiences with said product, and I mentioned that I liked it better without the ferrites. The beauty of this place is that we all come here to share our experiences and learn, not to berate each other. Keep your shirt on, and you will be treated with the same respect that we all entitled to.

 

It may interest you to know that I have tested 6 or 7 different USB cables on my rigs, ranging in price from $20 to $200, and that the two that I have chosen to use both sell for less than $45 each. While there may be a scientific explaination for all of this, I couldn't care less, as long as it sounds good to me, and I don't need to justify or prove anything to anyone.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

Right, so then the bottom line is you have to have a scientific path to determine which observations are illusions and which are genuine. Paths such as measurements and blind testing is how you separate the fact from the BS. People wouldn't give up their flat earth beliefs until evidence of scientific proof could prove to them they were wrong.

 

Sort of. I strongly agree with the scientific method and objective evidence. However, the latter does not necessarily constitute proof no matter how rigorous we attempt the former. You are simply left with inconclusive evidence that can be interpreted and debated ad nauseum.

 

Measurements are only as good as the test tool and and how well they have been shown to represent the outcome ie their interpretation. Mostly we are dealing with statistical probabilities, not facts. As Mark Twain alluded, statistics can be manipulated.

 

Remember also that there were people using "scientific measurements" "proving" the earth was flat. These could be the same "objective" 'scientists" using audio blind testing and concluding you hear no difference.

 

Like you, I dont want to be fooled by snake oil claims. I do not however assume what people claim to be hearing is not possible especially if I hear it too. I do not really care if it is "illusion" per se. The stereo image is an illusion. Above all else, just like Dennis, I do not claim to be the keeper of the truth. I don't have the answer to determine what is a "real" difference or what is placebo/audio expectation bias. Like Allan and Teresa and countless others, when it comes to subjective enjoyment of music

I only have to convince myself that I will be happy living with whatever it is I consider buying

[Teresa]

They do if you have any interest in stopping snake oil salemen (lies) from cheating people out of their hard earned money. Do you believe there is true value in a $3k power cord or a $15k interconnect or speaker cable? Some people are naturally gullible and are easily influenced. This is an industry rife with dishonesty and hucksterism and it's way passed time that some of us started shining light in the dark corners of unsubstantiated claims.

I see by looking at the components in your system that you have listed, that you have good reasonable stuff. Do you have those Monster speaker cables in your system because you can't afford a set of $15,000 ones, or because common sense told you better?

 

First, instead of stifling innovation I believe in a money back guarantee.

 

Second, I'm poor and my father taught me the value of a dollar. When I need something audio related I buy it on sale, on clearance, or demo, as long as it has a money back guarantee.

 

With speaker cable I have found the bass is fuller and has more impact as the gauge is increased (lower number), I started with 24 gauge speaker wire in the early 1970s, moved to 16 gauge lamp cord then to 12 gauge and then to the Monster Cable I have now.

 

I don't know if there is value to a rich person in $3k power cord or a $15k interconnect or speaker cable as I already stated I'm poor and would never be able to try one, so I cannot in good conscience offer any comment pro or con.

[Sal1950]

No, there doesn't. At least, not for those who hear differences consistently and have made choices accordingly. We build our systems to enjoy the music, not to convince objectivists.

 

YES there does. Otherwise your heard difference is only one mans opinion. Don't you care to know if you really are hearing what you think you are, or just hearing an expectation bias due to what you've read or because of what you PAID for a product.

[Sal1950]

Allan, like yourself, good audiophiles always extend something that is welcoming :-)

 

That would be the "Talent" part of the "T's", but agree you have to T-hink about it a little bit.

 

Could it be that hearing is not your strong suit ? ...see above

 

Ahh, that would be pseudo -objective views to go along with the pseudo-science. get your science right and truly objective people will gladly listen :-)

 

Now Dennis, you are straining the CA irony meter a bit. I do believe though FWIW you would welcome the truth. However the more you refer back to blind testing without reference to its validity, the more disservice you do to your credilbilty,IMO

 

That did it, the irony meter just exploded !!

 

You so funny, you should get a job on late night TV, or maybe a reality show. LOL YEA a REALITY SHOW

[wwaldmanfan]

No, there doesn't. At least, not for those who hear differences consistently and have made choices accordingly. We build our systems to enjoy the music, not to convince objectivists.

 

YES there does. Otherwise your heard difference is only one mans opinion. Don't you care to know if you really are hearing what you think you are, or just hearing an expectation bias due to what you've read or because of what you PAID for a product.

A great man once said, quote: "If it sounds good, it IS good".

[Sal1950]

Teresa

I give up, to you there is absolutely no value to blind testing and your mind is totally closed to the subject. It's OK, you will lose nothing and your system will neither benefit or suffer from this position.

But there are those who be hurt by throwing up your hands and saying, NO, IT JUST DON"T WORK.

So then besides measurements and blind testing, do you have any other plan to separate the snakeoil salesman's goods from the real advancements besides just letting everyone "Trust their ears"? That will only lead to chaos.

[Sal1950]

With speaker cable I have found the bass is fuller and has more impact as the gauge is increased (lower number), I started with 24 gauge speaker wire in the early 1970s, moved to 16 gauge lamp cord then to 12 gauge and then to the Monster Cable I have now.

.

 

Ah yes, a simple fact that a quick reference to any of the published measurements on speaker cable would have shown you. Thank goodness that info is out there for newcomers to learn what is necessary for good sound reproduction from a speaker cable and also informing them what are the snakeoil claims and avoid being cheated. Good solid info like this,

 

Speaker Cable Gauge (AWG) Guidelines & Recommendations | Audioholics

[sandyk]

If it wasn't for Subjective reports from customers,(A.K.A. Feedback) there would be no need for further Objective measurements, and we would be back to rubbish like all Amplifiers/Preamplifiers/DACs etc. that meet certain measurement standards must sound the same.

[Allan F]

YES there does. Otherwise your heard difference is only one mans opinion. Don't you care to know if you really are hearing what you think you are, or just hearing an expectation bias due to what you've read or because of what you PAID for a product.

No, I have no need for objective proof. Since you prefer direct language, here it is. Evangelistic Objectivists like you are as obnoxious and irrelevant to me as religious fanatics. Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's ass about what you think. All I care about is MY enjoyment of the music from a system that I have built based on what I HEAR. In that regard, the ONLY opinion that matters is MINE and the only person who has to be satisfied that I received value for what I paid is ME. I have no need to prove anything to anyone else, especially you. Is that clear enough? I hope so because this is my last reply to you before putting you back on my Ignore List.

[Don Hills]

No, there is no need for objective proof. Since you prefer direct language, here it is. ...

 

You made yourself perfectly clear.

Just wondering, how do you hear your music with your fingers firmly in your ears while chanting "nananana..."? :)

[Allan F]

You made yourself perfectly clear.

Just wondering, how do you hear your music with your fingers firmly in your ears while chanting "nananana..."? :)

In psychology, what you are doing is called "projection". :)

[Sal1950]

No, I have no need for objective proof. Since you prefer direct language, here it is. Evangelistic Objectivists like you are as obnoxious and irrelevant to me as religious fanatics. Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's ass about what you think. All I care about is MY enjoyment of the music from a system that I have built based on what I HEAR. In that regard, the ONLY opinion that matters is MINE and the only person who has to be satisfied that I received value for what I paid is ME. I have no need to prove anything to anyone else, especially you. Is that clear enough? I hope so because this is my last reply to you before putting you back on my Ignore List.

 

Yep, very clear. Me Me Me, Mine Mine Mine, the selfish attitude of this generation. To heck if I promote a system that is making a killing on screwing people with false advertisement and snake-oil sales tactics from the horse and buggy days.

Hooray for you.

You should be proud.

[Sal1950]

In psychology, what you are doing is called "projection". :)

OH, he's a Psychologist too. Excuse me Doctor

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

No, I have no need for objective proof. Since you prefer direct language, here it is. Evangelistic Objectivists like you are as obnoxious and irrelevant to me as religious fanatics. Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's ass about what you think. All I care about is MY enjoyment of the music from a system that I have built based on what I HEAR. In that regard, the ONLY opinion that matters is MINE and the only person who has to be satisfied that I received value for what I paid is ME. I have no need to prove anything to anyone else, especially you. Is that clear enough? I hope so because this is my last reply to you before putting you back on my Ignore List.

 

Allan, just one small objection to your post (bold is mine). That should be pseudo-objectivist ! there is clearly nothing objective about Sal. Reminds me a bit of Prot, remember him...no, I don't want to either. Sal did think I was funny though, that's something ...oh well, he's on my ignore list now too.

[Teresa]

Teresa

I give up, to you there is absolutely no value to blind testing and your mind is totally closed to the subject.

 

My opinion is based on the history of AB tests and the known science of how the brain works. If someone devises an AB test that actually works I am open to changing my mind. Comparisons are hard work and require lots of listening time to decide what one likes the best with their music. Not something to rush into with AB tests.

 

So then besides measurements and blind testing, do you have any other plan to separate the snakeoil salesman's goods from the real advancements besides just letting everyone "Trust their ears"? That will only lead to chaos.

 

My only advise is if one cares about their money and how music sounds to them, make sure and get an iron-clad money back guarantee.

 

If enough product that doesn't perform as promised is returned for refund the company will go out of business. I nor you can babysit purchasers to make sure they compare their purchases before the end of their return period.

 

Is your problem with rich people? If so do you try to protect them from buying $2,000 hamburgers or multi-million dollar homes?

 

No chaos is caused by trusting ones ears and returning products that don't perform as expected.

[firedog]

YES there does. Otherwise your heard difference is only one mans opinion. Don't you care to know if you really are hearing what you think you are, or just hearing an expectation bias due to what you've read or because of what you PAID for a product.

 

Lot's of us only care about one man's (woman's) opinion - our own.

 

I believe in scientific testing, but I also know that my listening skills decrease when doing a BT or DBT. Call it the results of tension, nervousness, whatever. I think the same thing is true for lots of others. It's one of the reasons I'm not convinced that DBT are the "gold standard" for this type of testing. I mostly test items by listening to them for an extended period and then switching them out to see if the switch seems to result in a different sound.

 

As far as snake oil, I'm willing to buy products that seem to have some reasonable basis for improving sound, whether it's been "proven" or not. Obviously budget does come into it. I don't buy uber expensive accessories. But I've risked $100 or $200 on some items just out of curiousity. If they seem to work then I'm happy, because if I think the SQ of my setup has improved, then it has - whether it's been DBT'd or not. If I'm "wrong" - who cares? Part of the fun of the hobby for me.

 

As far as cables, I understand all the arguments about why they can't make a difference, but I have tried various analog cables from $20 to $100 and some seem to me to sound better than others. It could be my imagination, but I'm willing to risk what I consider a modest sum for better sound. At the very least, in that situation if I have what I think are the better sounding and better made cables, then I feel comfortable ignoring all the audiophile blather about them and just am happy thinking that I have well made and properly performing interconnects. The so called "proof" about whether my $30 or $85 cable sounds better than a $5 one doesn't really matter to me.

[Teresa]

No, I have no need for objective proof. Since you prefer direct language, here it is. Evangelistic Objectivists like you are as obnoxious and irrelevant to me as religious fanatics. Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's ass about what you think. All I care about is MY enjoyment of the music from a system that I have built based on what I HEAR. In that regard, the ONLY opinion that matters is MINE and the only person who has to be satisfied that I received value for what I paid is ME. I have no need to prove anything to anyone else, especially you. Is that clear enough? I hope so because this is my last reply to you before putting you back on my Ignore List.

 

Yep, very clear. Me Me Me, Mine Mine Mine, the selfish attitude of this generation.

 

Sorry Sal, once again I agree with Allan here. If you like music and want to enjoy it then it is you who must decide what equipment and what recordings to buy. To let someone else do this for you, either by measurements or tests, will only lead to disappointment and loss of money.

 

It is not selfish to feel that each individual is free to make their own decisions as to what sounds the best to them. It is freedom!

 

To heck if I promote a system that is making a killing on screwing people with false advertisement and snake-oil sales tactics from the horse and buggy days.

Hooray for you.

You should be proud.

 

Back in the old days that could happen but not now.

 

Back in 1983 I bought Sony's first CD player, the CDP-101 and it sounded like crap. That was before money back satisfaction guarantees, nothing I could do about it except trade it in, it cost $900 and I got $300 in trade just three months later and lost $600. That would not happen nowadays as I could have returned it within 30 days for a full refund. Always demand a 100% money back satisfaction guarantee, and no one can screw you.

[Allan F]

Allan, just one small objection to your post (bold is mine). That should be pseudo-objectivist ! there is clearly nothing objective about Sal. Reminds me a bit of Prot, remember him...no, I don't want to either. Sal did think I was funny though, that's something ...oh well, he's on my ignore list now too.

I thought the 'pseudo' qualifier was included by definition.

[PopPop]

In the US we live in a capitalist economy and we swim in snake oil all day long. From pharmaceuticals, to processes foods, sports equipment etc. I am more outraged my what my grocer tries to pass off as nutritional food than I am about the Audio cables.

 

 

Healthy criticism is useful and necessary as is testing etc. But if my concern about the claims of cable manufacturers drives me to shame and ridicule the people who support them, and I am overtaken by concern about what people think of me as an audiophile, I will see a doctor and treat my existential crisis with some therapy.

[Jud]

I believe in scientific testing, but I also know that my listening skills decrease when doing a BT or DBT. Call it the results of tension, nervousness, whatever. I think the same thing is true for lots of others. It's one of the reasons I'm not convinced that DBT are the "gold standard" for this type of testing.

 

It's not tension that affects performance, as many people (including me) used to think. The reason for the lack of performance is more fundamental. At that point, cause and effect are reversed from most people's preconceptions: lack of performance results in stress.

[sandyk]

It's not tension that affects performance, as many people (including me) used to think. The reason for the lack of performance is more fundamental. At that point, cause and effect are reversed from most people's preconceptions: lack of performance results in stress.

 

Hi Jud

This isn't the right forum for discussing your marital problems ! (grin)

 

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

[Jud]

Hi Jud

This isn't the right forum for discussing your marital problems ! (grin)

 

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Yeah, I knew how that sounded when I was writing it.

[Sal1950]

My only advise is if one cares about their money and how music sounds to them, make sure and get an iron-clad money back guarantee.

 

If enough product that doesn't perform as promised is returned for refund the company will go out of business. I nor you can babysit purchasers to make sure they compare their purchases before the end of their return period.

 

Is your problem with rich people? If so do you try to protect them from buying $2,000 hamburgers or multi-million dollar homes?

 

Just for the record, no not in the least. Maybe a little jealous but no problem.

When a wealty person buys a new Bugatti Veyron for $3 milion or so he knows exactly what he's going to get and why it's worth that money. It's guaranteed to make 1,200 hp and do well over 250 mph. That performance has been closely tested using all the "scientific" tools available by many in the automotive press and is a genuine verified fact.

He didn't buy it because a bunch of morons in the press got paid for a good review, or some no nothing on the internet said it felt fast to him. He doesn't need any money back guarantte, the whole world knows he'll get exactly what he was promissed by the manufacturer.

As for the home or hamburger, the same things apply. That home is valued by a market that is closely monitored and based on factual details.

Audio is the only market that I'm aware of that there seems to be no rules, and honest scientific investigation is ridiculed.

Much more like a Jim Jones cult religion than any technology.

Maybe me and a few others could join together and make some money along with doing some genuine good by starting an Audiophile Intervention TV show.