ECdesigns

[tapatrick]

8 hours ago, hopkins said:

This is definitely a "DIY" solution as the PS needs to be inserted in a proper case.

!! Yikes - only for the experienced!  

 

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, bodiebill said:

Thanks @hopkins, good to know. I expected so much but somehow remember that @tapatrick had a good experience with alternative powering of the DAC?

I will only upgrade power for the U192 for now...

Yes my PH SR4 does sound slightly better powering the DAC (as well as another one on the U192) but unless you have good spare supply I wouldn't bother as the supplied PSU is very good and the difference is subtle.

[tapatrick]

5 hours ago, hopkins said:

That guy (Rob) is well known, and to put it bluntly, IMO he's a complete lunatic, but thanks for sharing. 

Sadly Rob passed away in April 2019. I did follow the developments of his DC cable experiments for some time back then and now all my DC cables are done this way - (ie  splitting the +/- into 2 ethernet cables with POE connectors). Well worth the experiment but not sure how relevant this now is with the EC combo. I should take them out and see.

[tapatrick]

58 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

wow, I thought ECdesigns helped us to minimize tweaking... but where there is a will, there is a way...

😂 That will be the day..

[tapatrick]

On 8/23/2020 at 2:25 AM, tims said:

To anyone with the DA96 DAC, has anyone tried the EC range of RCA cables (the Audio Interlink - AI range) to a pre-amp or other device?

If your'e using your own RCA cables, I'd be interested to read if anyone has done some cable swapping to see if this makes a significant different SQ wise  (but would be happy to read that it doesn't - theres some mighty expensive RCA cables out there ).

The EC RCA cables are very good and I havn't felt any compulsion to try any others.

[tapatrick]

It's very quiet here so I'm posting an update as I managed to do some more listening tests using a Raspberry Pi 2 this time as source. I wanted to try using what I consider a worse case source to see how this would sound through the U192 and Fractal DAC combo.

 

I tested by streaming from Tidal via Volumio on the Pi. I didn't have any other 5V 2-3A PSU to power the Raspberry Pi otherwise I would have tried. Fractal DAC is powered by supplied EC PSU.

 

A. Router > Pi 2 (fed by Paul Hynes SR4) > U192 > Fractal DAC > rest of system:

- Generic Ethernet cable to my router (bypassing my EtherRegen)

- Generic Usb cable straight from Rpi to U192

 

B. Router > Pi 2 (fed by Paul Hynes SR4) > Clean 5V injection from 2nd PH SR4 > U192 > Fractal DAC > rest of system:

- Generic Ethernet cable to my router (bypassing my EtherRegen)

 

C. Router > EtherRegen > Pi 2 (fed by Paul Hynes SR4) > Clean 5V injection from 2nd PH SR4 > U192 > Fractal DAC > rest of system:

 

D. Router > EtherRegen > Aqvox short Ethernet cable> Antipodes DXe (Streaming from Tidal via Roon) > Clean 5V injection from 2nd PH SR4 > U192 > Fractal DAC > rest of system:

 

A : Terrible - collapsed soundstage with harsh edges to the sound - even with a PH SR4 feeding the Pi. I attribute this to USB power coming straight from the Pi and to some degree no network isolation from the Router.

B : Magic has returned! Replacing the 5V USB coming out of the Pi restores most of the satisfaction that I am used to with the EC Combo. This was the most significant jump in SQ and confirms my previous findings that the USB 5V feeding the U192 is very important.

C : Even better with a more silky SQ. This was not as big a step up as from A > B but confirms the positive effect of the EtherRegen on network streaming isolating the source.

D : Best SQ with a deeper richer quality. This is my benchmark which with longer term listening has revealed that this is the richest and fullest SQ.

 

My final conclusion is that the source does matter - if it is bad but (including these and previous tests) after a certain level has been reached it doesn't seem to matter that much what else is added.

 

 

[tapatrick]

5 hours ago, FIndingit said:

So U192 and Fractal dac sound terrible now? Ok. 

no

[tapatrick]

7 hours ago, tims said:

Thanks for the review.  What cable are you using for the clean 5v injection - is it a Ghent cable or diy?

Also, have you tried powering the Pi 2 and the U192 from the same SR4.  I wonder if the isolation by using two SR4's is a significant factor as well?

Yes I use a Ghent cable - see previous posts. I did also use a DIY version and was the same SQ, just not as tidy.

I havn't tried using the SR4s to power more that one device as in the past I've not found this beneficial due to grounding issues.

[tapatrick]

4 hours ago, Huubster said:

Very interesesting tapatrick, thanks. I assume you use a 'dual-headed' USB cable to do so? Signal coming from RPi and 5v from another source? 

It's a USB cable with a connector at the end for the 5V input. To put this in context the EC combo always sounds good and apart from relative differences I have detected and posted about I consider this one of the most significant improvements.

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

While Uptone Audio claims that connecting the downstream gear to the B-side sounds best

Yes but the change is not as much as isolating the USB 5V from the Pi.

[tapatrick]

8 hours ago, matthias said:

 

I am just curious did you compare ER A-side only vs. crossing the moat to the B-side with your ECDs?

Another question:

No I did this back when I first got the ER and found the Uptone recommendation B side to be best

8 hours ago, matthias said:

How good is the USB Vbus output of your Antipodes in comparison to the PH powered with the Y-cable?

Pretty good as the Antipodes internally has a Sotm USB hub feeding the USB output and I could easily live with it - the PH 5V added is slightly better.

By now you might have noticed that I'm no longer interested in splitting hairs on differences in the way I used to like doing. The EC Combo is as I have mentioned many times a game changer. I cannot put the changes they bring in the same categories as changing a cable or other tweaks and I have less interest in pursuing these kinds of comparisons as it is endless.

 

My interest in trying the Pi 2 (which I consider to be the worst possible source on its own) was to find out what is the range of benefit that the EC Combo brings. When I say the basic Pi was terrible, this is a relative statement and I'm sure many would find the SQ okay as the EC combo still deals with it adequately, just not enough for my tastes.

 

I am convinced however that I don't think you need to buy an expensive server or an EtherRegen once you have a EC combo - only a fairly decent source and a decent PSU. I already had invested in the equipment I have over time and the EC combo to me is the flowering of what I was looking for. After a few months this has only been confirmed and time has helped me to tease out what the rest of my system brings to the overall SQ. Hope this helps.

[tapatrick]

16 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

Not sure, but does this look similar to U192ETL+TosLink?

https://www.msbtechnology.com/accessories/prousb/ 

That looks like a variation on USB/fibre extenders of which there are many examples and price levels. They pop up occasionally as a solution for USB isolation. EC seem to have taken this much further.  

[tapatrick]

57 minutes ago, matthias said:

To sum up the listening tests of @tapatrick I would say the U192 needs a proper power supply to be independent from USB Vbus power.

IMO, if source independency is the aim of ECD they should develop their own power supply for the U192.

 

Matt

Possibly, let’s see how this unfolds. I would first prefer to see multiple reports of listening tests that have come to the same conclusion that I have. It’s a helpful way to get round the problems of reading online claims. - even my own. So far we have 1 or 2 which is not enough to come to a definitive conclusion.
 

The EC combo is remarkable and I hope that this is kept in mind.  

[tapatrick]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

How do folks in the USA purchase EC Designs components?  Their web shop does not offer selection of shipping to here in the states.  Also, what is the lead time presently? It is not clear to me.

Thanks,

—Alex C.

Hi Alex, Yes best to check with John Brown I’m sure they would accommodate you. 
 

If not maybe a contact in Europe could purchase for you. I received my U192 and Fractal DAC in a week or so. Regarding US Power supplies you would only need to supply 5V 1a to the DAC through a USB B connector and similarly the U192 takes 5V from the USB source Cable.  Not sure how the USB transport is powered if you wanted that too.  

[tapatrick]

I'm curious to hear from others what you are finding out about SQ over the longer term. For those interested here are my thoughts to date on sound quality and musical enjoyment using the U192 and Fractal DAC in my set up.

 

Apart from the overall harmony and ease that the EC combo continually brings, one of the qualities which I have noticed with the benefit of longer term listening is in the lower frequencies. There is so much subtlety, clarity and richness with bass notes as well as significant power, no doubt attributed to the lower and restricted noise levels. I have (temporarily?) removed a Bass sub I was using because it is already enough plus very enjoyable and engaging without.

 

I listen to a lot of singer/songwriters, so voices are where most of my attention has been focused (or released! in the case of the EC combo). Now these sound marvellous and natural with great subtlety and depth. This all dependent on variations in recording quality of course but I have found that any noise or sibilance that is in the recordings even though it cannot disappear it is made more palatable. This to me is another major contribution that the EC combo brings.

 

Upper registers ie cymbals etc are finely rendered and again with great natural detail fading away into black background.

 

Soundstage is wide and deep but also the subtleties and nuances of echoes and cues within the soundscape are intoxicating - especially with live recordings. I find this interesting as so often in the past with initial improvements, over time issues start to surface - so far not with this set up.

 

I have also noticed as has been mentioned previously that everything needs to be warmed up and from a cold start this seem to take up from 1/2 to 1 hour. So generally I leave the DAC on most of the time.

[tapatrick]

44 minutes ago, matthias said:

Am I right that these listening notes are from your configuration D set-up in your post #938?

Yes

 

44 minutes ago, matthias said:

Did you try (in configuration D) to power the Fractal DAC with one of your PH PS?

That is how I run the DAC as I have a couple of PH SR4s and they are excellent PSUs. I posted about this earlier in the thread - the supplied EC PSU is very good and I couldn't say if there was much difference between it and the SR4.

[tapatrick]

53 minutes ago, hopkins said:

@tapatrick  There is definitely a warm-up time needed, probably more for the DAC than either the U192 or UPL. Otherwise your impressions are similar to mine.

 

I have also noticed a significant improvement when properly powering the U192. I had previously tested various power supplies, and 5v battery packs. I recently thought of powering it with the batteries from the previous UPL - and bingo ! Those batteries are lithium 3.7v, and the U192 runs fine on them (5v is not needed). I ordered another battery with double the capacity: https://www.tme.eu/fr/details/accu-lp805080_cl/accumulateurs/cellevia-batteries/lp805080/ 

 

5v battery packs typically used to charge phones have zero benefit. They include some regulators which probably generate noise, and the batteries may be of lower quality.

 

I am going to use the case and circuit of the previous UPL to power the U192, and have ordred  a Ghent Audio Y cable: https://www.ghentaudio.com/usb/u21.html. So it should be a fairly "clean" setup.

 

In terms of source, I have found that the lower the power the better. The Pi 4 runs fine, but the Pi 3 A+ is even better, if all you are doing is streaming (either from services or from your home server): https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-3-model-a-plus/ The Pi Zero W has the lowest power consumption and processor, and can run on 3.7v batteries (connected to the 5v supply), but unfortunately WiFi is problematic with high resolution files (16/44 is ok in my house, but 24/96 a disaster). The Pi 3 A+ runs extremely well, and at much lower temperatures (35C) than the Pi 4. I am still using piCorePlayer, and it runs fine. There are many distributions out there that are probably just as good.

 

Once you power the U192 seperately from the source, I believe the power supply of the source is not as critical (but better play it safe).

 

I believe the UPL could benefit also from a clean power source. On Friday, I tested the UPL at a friend's, connected to a noisy laptop, and used one of those 5v battery rechargers to supply power to the UPL seperately - it was a mistake. 

 

I now wish they had kept the same battery supply mechanism than they had in the previous models. There are problems shipping units with batteries, and that may be one reason why they changed ?

 

 

Thanks for sharing. I spent a couple of years playing around with various batteries and I found the same that mixing regulators and batteries is not advised. The best battery source I found is Ian Canadas LifePo4 / Ultracaps power supplies and he has taken this to a high level of development. (Reminds me I should try one on the U192 5VUSB input)

 

Talking of regulating PSUs then the Ultra low noise LT3045v modules from Alexey https://www.ldovr.com/default.asp or LT3045 based PSUs from https://www.mpaudio.net/product-category should be considered. I have experimented with them for long time and these have been covered in multiple threads so I won't go into it here. In the end I found a PSU of good quality such as the SR4 does not need any extra regulation but other DIY power supplies are great enhanced by them.

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Those batteries are lithium 3.7v, and the U192 runs fine on them (5v is not needed).

interesting find... that means the 5V input is regulated down.

[tapatrick]

3 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Yes, exactly. But do it at your own risk  

Power consumption of the U192 is very low - forgot what John stated, but it is less than 100mA.

yes and I'm curious how low the voltage can go too? Maybe I will have a look... 

[tapatrick]

5 minutes ago, Tzougie said:

You shouldn't run the U192ETL at a lower voltage then 5V, it has it's own discrete stabilizing circuit on board which will  work not well when you lower the voltage.

Yes the 5v is needed for a reason...

 

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

One question I have is what happens when you feed the U192 24/192 PCM--since the DAC itself only goes to 24/96.  I know that at lower rates it is all NOS, but is there some processing that downsamples when higher than 24/96 is fed?

I believe higher than 24/192 will not play but not sure as I only play redbook which I find very satisfying.

[tapatrick]

5 hours ago, bodiebill said:

Could there be any benefit in using a VAC => VDC regulator like the TL PS rather than what I am planning? And as I understand that would be more of a DIY project that requires (a) toroid(s), a case, etc.?

Personally as much as I like to play around with  these things there is a lot that goes into a good PSU so I leave it to the experts. The PHynes are excellent.

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, Ben75 said:

.. perhaps at Roberto flat to challenge its Terminator + SOtM SMS 200 Ultra streamer? 

🤔 looking forward to hearing about that.  

[tapatrick]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

So then what is the point of the making it the U192–if the DAC it is designed to feed only accepts rates to 96KHz? 

(And I hope nobody suggests it is so that the U192 can be used as a USB>TOSlink converted with other DACs at 192KHz. )

One for John Brown

The XMOS module in the U192 probably handles up to 192KHz by default. Honestly this hasn't bothered me as the SQ is so satisfying but if you have a library of higher res music then that would be a party stopper.

 

PS the U192 using toslink into my PS Audio DAC sounds superb...  

 

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

I have got the impression from the recent posts that the PSs of ECD devices might be their weakest point.

It's semantics but I think that is an overstatement  because the supplied PSU for the DAC I have found to be very good and the USB 5V is dependent on the source.