ECdesigns

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Thanks as well @Norton, very much the same impression here after having spend the afternoon listening to both (mostly to the UPL). 

 

I have a feeling that further optimizations of the "PC" source when using the U192ETL will not yield significantly different results. The slightly lower quality may just simply be a tradeoff that we have to acccept. 

 

It will be interesting now to compare the U192ETL+Fractal DAC against other sources and DACs. That is something I hope to be doing  soon. 

 

[Huubster]

Hi all,

 

I followed this thread with quite some interest lately and today I received the trio as well, meaning UPL, U192 and the Fractal DAC.

 

And I thought let me contribute to the forum as well and share my thoughts, not much to find online on this small Dutch brand.

 

Sofar I only tried the U192, for me the most important one, and I'm playing Spotify (yes, Spotify, it sounds better to me then Qobuz Studio which I used for quite some time as well) from an Innuos Zen Mini streamer/server. Currently comparing it to my trusted Schiit Yggdrasil A2 DAC using Gen5 USB (there is a newer USB implementation by now)

 

First impressions are very good, but the Yggdrasil is coping better then I anticipated though. What I definitely can hear is a more 'relaxed' sound without losing dynamics. That may be a matter of taste though, I like the 'snappiness' from the Schiit as well.

 

I definitely need more time for a better judgement call, time will tell..  I'm looking forward to more information sharing on these really innovative products  

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Nice to see more ECDesigns customers here. 

 

On the front page of their website, at the bottom (section "Resolution and Clarity") they mention adding a resistance in series to the speaker cable to increase resolution. I tried this little trick yesterday, and it does seem to work, with no negative side effects. More listening is required, however, to confirm. The resistance has to be calibrated to the speaker impedance.

 

I also purchased ECDesigns' RCA interlinks (50cm) and they seem to work very well. A friend is coming over today to listen to my system, and is bringing some  "high-end" cables to compare... 

[Huubster]

I'm a firm 'believer' of cables @hopkins and of the opinion that my cables make my system to what it is now.

 

Big compliments to ECDesigns in a sense that the Fractal DAC in combination with the U192ETL, with only basic usb and power cable running on the power supply of the DAC, wins from my fully 'cable-tuned' Yggdrasil. 

 

Last night I tried to get the UPL working, but preparing a stick is no joke, couldn't get it working properly. I'm new to all that music tagging stuff and need to do some knowledge gathering on that topic first it seems. 

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I would recommend using Kid3, that ECDesigns mentions on their site, and start with a few tracks, making sure you add a thumbnail image, the artist, title, track number, and album title in your tags. The rest is optional. Make sure the tags only contain id3v2, nothing else - that is something easy to check with Kid3. 

 

Good luck! 

[Huubster]

Thanks hopkins, I tried it with that tool indeed, but no luck yet. Must be me doing something stupid or forgetting something very simple, I will find it

[Norton]

2 hours ago, Huubster said:

Thanks hopkins, I tried it with that tool indeed, but no luck yet. Must be me doing something stupid or forgetting something very simple, I will find it

I’d start with just one folder with a few tracks in on an otherwise empty stick.

 

Some issues I’ve encountered and things I sometimes forget-

 

does folder name start with 01 etc? Does each filename start with 01, 02 onwards?  
 

Does the UPL actually recognise the stick (ie you see message “Downloading from stick n”)?  If not, is stick  formatted as FAT32? If so, try a different model of stick.  Note that if FW is not already at 1.03 it needs a FW update from  ECD to work with a wider range of sticks

 

If downloading stick starts but doesn’t finish, have you got any large JPEG’s in there?

 

For existing untagged WAV, I get folder and files numbered, add album art as folder.jpg no more than 150 mb, then open and save with Kid3 configured to tag from filenames.

 

For existing tagged FLAC, I use JRiver to convert format to WAV with option to preserve tags.  For me that generally produces files that are ready to use on UPL without needing Kid3 (providing already numbered as above)

 

And remember it’s a bargain - this level of audio inconvenience usually comes with a much higher price tag...
 

 

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, Norton said:

this level of audio inconvenience usually comes with a much higher price tag...

 😂  😂  

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Reminds me of this cartoon 😀

[Huubster]

Haha, spot on. First wold problems, it's a hard life to cope with all this in pursuit of the perfect-do-it-all sound system..

 

In the meantime I got the first few albums working on the UPL, thanks for all the tips!

 

And the UPL does sound better than streaming Spotify with my Innuos Zen, it's more clean and a more snappy, but with my 'audio-optimized' Zen Mini the USB is great as well, the gap is not that big. But the UPL makes it really hard not to start toe-tapping..

 

Comparing the UPL with playing the same WAV file from the HD in the Innuos Zen Mini, I can't here much difference, if at all..

[M_audio]

On 6/16/2020 at 7:08 PM, Tzougie said:

I used the XTOS with a seperate Tentlabs power supply and a lifatec glassfiber cable, exchanged it for the U192ETL with ETL cable, and it sounded much much better in a way, that I can enjoy streaming again, you have to change only one cable, the USB A-B cable, the ETL cable comes with the U192 ETL.

 

yeah, but i can't use the ETL cable with Mosaic T16 DAC, can i? 

I tweaked my system last year around Mosaic T16 and finally got great sound. So i don't want to change it. I always try to get a maximum out of a component if the component sounds promising, which Mosaic did and it payed off in the end. 

[Tzougie]

The Mosaic T16 has a toslink intput ?

The ETL cable is backwards compatible,  so you can use it on any DAC with a toslink input.

[M_audio]

4 hours ago, Tzougie said:

The Mosaic T16 has a toslink intput ?

The ETL cable is backwards compatible,  so you can use it on any DAC with a toslink input.

Mini TOSLink. so yeah i would need an TOSLink to MiniTOSLink adapter (which degrades the signal). could be an experiment.

[jwr159]

I am intrigued by the fractal DAC.  Glad that it is finally shipping and the early feedback is so positive.  I have a few dumb connectivity questions. 

 

Does the ElectroTos into the DA96ETF DAC work only with the two  USB transports (U192ETL, UPL96ETL) or will it work with any coax source?  I assume the latter, but would like to confirm. 

 

Assuming ElectroTos is compatible with any coax source, is there much of a performance trade-off versus using either of the USB transports. 

 

I am currently looking to replace my TDA1541 based DAC. This is one of the few I would consider a worthy replacement. 

 

Thanks in advance for any replies. 

 

  

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

The new DAC only works with the new transports. 

[jwr159]

Thanks Hopkins. Not the answer I was hoping for, but it is what it is. Best regrds.

[Huubster]

I have been enjoying the Fractal DAC for a few days more and all I can say is: Wow, breathtaking really.

 

This thing is a real gem. I mainly use the ETL and stream Spotify. The sound is so involving, with a natural flow to it, no harshness at all, the only thing I want to do is put up the volume. I'm pretty good with words, but I have a hard time describing what the DAC does my sound. All I can say is: Give it a try, I'm pretty sure you won't regret it. 

 

In my former comment I siad I didnt here much difference between the ETL using my Innuos Zen musicserver and using the UPL. Though I'm perfectly happy with the ETL, the UPL makes it even better.. I thought I already had a 'pitch black' background, all instruments so precisely located in space (depth and height), but after going back from UPL to my streamer, I actually heard 'noise' I never realised was there. And then realizing the UPL is powered by USB, worst powersource known to mankind! That is something special right there for 363 euro!

 

I just sold my Schiiit Yggdrasil. I really had a difficult time NOT saying that I replaced it by a much better DAC costing half as much he payed me for my Yggdrasil...

 

 

[Norton]

2 hours ago, Huubster said:

a much better DAC costing half as much he payed me for my Yggdrasil...

Sounds like he still got a bargain! In the UK the DAC96 is c. less than a quarter of the price of a new Yggdrasil, but maybe you are factoring a choice of transport into the DAC96 cost?

 

I’m currently enjoying the DAC96 via U192 with Roon and Qobuz 24/96.

[M_audio]

Oh so it seems like U192 is good! Might give it a try once.
Although in case of streaming I prefer to stream my own stuff. Once i compared HiRez from Quobuz to local files and local always sounded better. 

And with Mosaic DAC i found out by chance that it even makes a difference if it is a Flac or Wav - Wav file simply sound better..
Highs are more wet, mids are more palpable..bass bit deeper. Then tried to convert flacs to wav format, but didn't notice the difference with converted wavs. Only when ripped from CD directly to wav instead to flac, the wav's sound better - in my system.

[Huubster]

12 minutes ago, Norton said:

but maybe you are factoring a choice of transport into the DAC96 cost?

 

 

Indeed Norton, you can't do anything with the DAC only, you need one or both transports to be able to enjoy it. So I see it as a 1.000 euro DAC. And I got a little less then double that amount for my Yggdrasil.

[Huubster]

8 minutes ago, M_audio said:

Oh so it seems like U192 is good! Might give it a try once.

 

Yes, try it, it's that good. I haven't compared using my dedicated usb streamer to a computer yet, but I will do that on short notice, I'm curious whether it does make a difference.

 

8 minutes ago, M_audio said:

And with Mosaic DAC i found out by chance that it even makes a difference if it is a Flac or Wav - Wav file simply sound better..
Highs are more wet, mids are more palpable..bass bit deeper. Then tried to convert flacs to wav format, but didn't notice the difference with converted wavs. Only when ripped from CD directly to wav instead to flac, the wav's sound better - in my system.

 

I have tried the same using my Innuos server. WAV sounds definitely better in my system as well. The theory I heard about this is that using WAV means the processor doesn't have to decompress real-time, causing less noise in playback. I found this theory because I was looking online for an explanation why in my system WAV from a decompressed FLAC sounded better then the FLAC itself. Especcially noticble in my 24/192 flacs decompressed to WAV, far more 3d effect.

 

[M_audio]

8 minutes ago, Huubster said:

 

Yes, try it, it's that good. I haven't compared using my dedicated usb streamer to a computer yet, but I will do that on short notice, I'm curious whether it does make a difference.

 

 

Streamer should sound better, streamers (mostly) have better output than computers. I let the output of my MacBook into a Reclocker which is powered by external LPSU, so in the end thisis  the power that also goes into the ECD XTOS. The DAC gets its power from another ECD LPSU. 
MacBook output alone sounds a bit synthetic..
 

Quote

I have tried the same using my Innuos server. WAV sounds definitely better in my system as well. The theory I heard about this is that using WAV means the processor doesn't have to decompress real-time, causing less noise in playback. I found this theory because I was looking online for an explanation why in my system WAV from a decompressed FLAC sounded better then the FLAC itself. Especcially noticble in my 24/192 flacs decompressed to WAV, far more 3d effect.

Oh good to hear that, so i'm not hearing ghosts. Yes this is also my theory about the additional processing and uncompressing, but i made it myself (being an IT person i know a bit about real-time algorithms and what goes on there).
Maybe i could try to convert some hi-rez FLACs - when i get some space on the MacBook.
Now i have to ripp all the CDs to wav, which were previously ripped to FLAC. 

[Huubster]

11 minutes ago, M_audio said:

Maybe i could try to convert some hi-rez FLACs - when i get some space on the MacBook.
Now i have to ripp all the CDs to wav, which were previously ripped to FLAC. 

 

I recently bought my first High Res album online, so digital. I received FLAC files. I converted those FLACS to WAV's and voila. FLAC is for what I understand bitperfect, only compressed. So using a tool to decompress delivers you the WAV.

 

I've been looking for a good tool for music convertion and after trying at least 6 or 7 'free' tools I ended up buying dBpowerAmp. Great tool and convertion is a matter of seconds. Added bonus is the great tagging features you get with it, integrated in your file explorer.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Thanks @Huubster

 

I am eager to test the UPL+Fractal DAC against higher end DACs. 

 

When I compared the previous MOS DAC to a Terminator DAC with some friends (experienced audiophiles), the Terminator DAC was the clear "winner" (both fed with the UPL). I reported that in this thread at the time - I point that out to avoid any accusations of "bias". I also communicated this to ECDesigns. 

 

Interestingly, the same friends (one of which owns the Terminator) came over last week to listen to the new UPL+Fractal DAC and they were thoroughly impressed, basically agreeing with the assessment I gave in my previous posts.

 

So another "match" will be organized next week against the Terminator... The outcome will certainly be different than in the previous comparison with the MOS DAC. Will there be a clear difference one way or another? To be continued... 

 

 

[Huubster]

I'm curious about your findings @hopkins.

 

As for comparison with my former DAC, the Schiit Yggdrasil is still a really good DAC. All the space, precision, soundstage was there. Where the Fractal DAC stands out is the total absence of 'digital harshness' that I experienced with the Yggdrasil. I think that a lot of other DACS 'suffer' from the same when compared to the Fractal DAC, it is quite a unique experience if you ask me.