Ars prepares to put “audiophile” Ethernet cables to the test in Las Vegas

[Allan F]

Oh, absolutely. Now point out to me where a client has contractually specified a CAT 7 network, AQ has supplied their cables with those terminations, the network has failed due to that fact, and the client has suffered damage as a result. *Then* you could "expect to find yourself in court" (if the damage was other than de minimus). Otherwise please stop prattling on about legal terms you're not qualified to discuss.

 

Don't you just love these know-it-all amateur legal "experts" who think that their ignorant and/or ill informed opinions have a basis in law?

[Teresa]

...I can't reasonably expect to learn from the sighted listener because I can not trust the result...

 

Neither can I. However, you are way more trusting than I am, as I cannot trust either the sighted or the blind listener, I have to hear the damn thing in my room, in my system, using my ear/brain system, with either a long term loan or a 30 day money back guarantee. Why? Because I am of the lower economic class and extra money is scarce for me, I can’t afford to waste it!

 

The problem with sighted listeners is expectation bias, which I believe with dedicated long term listening can be overcome.

 

The problem with blind listeners is cognitive bias and listener fatigue which I don't believe can be overcome.

 

Thus both sighted and blind testing are unacceptable. Being happy and more important comfortable with the sound quality with long term listening is the only thing that I believe works. If unhappy with either the sound quality or comfort level return for exchange or refund!!!!!!

[Jud]

Don't you just love these know-it-all amateur legal "experts" who think that their ignorant and/or ill informed opinions have a basis in law?

 

How come I know I'm not qualified to give engineering opinions, but some engineers think they're qualified to give legal opinions?

 

plissken once gave expert testimony. That's nice. I've been in engineering litigations more than once, including a billion-dollar lawsuit involving over 100 expert witnesses and technical/engineering topics such as finite element analysis when it was first moving from mainframes to PCs, and thermodynamic calculations that required three weeks to perform on one of the world's fastest supercomputers at the time. I helped select our experts and prepare them for deposition (the case settled before our experts had to testify); and helped prepare for depositions and testimony of opposing experts. Neither on our side nor on the other did any "know-it-alls" make the cut to be hired as experts.

 

While of course this didn't qualify me to speak on engineering matters, it sure as heck gave me plenty of practice in evaluating statements of engineers claiming technical expertise.

 

A word to plissken: Attorneys or engineers, the smartest people I've known (and I've been lucky enough to know a bunch - my best friend from childhood has had several experiments on Hubble) haven't been aggressive about claiming expertise, and have spoken in terms of details and subtleties rather than sweeping generalizations. (See John Swenson's post in this thread for an example of such a statement - filled with informative details, making no exaggerated claims.)

 

Now there are folks who enjoy arguing, and perhaps you're one of them. If you want to keep on arguing, keep doing what you're doing. If you'd rather be persuasive, then concentrate on being informative and making no or modest, carefully limited claims about the extent of your personal knowledge. It's those sorts of folks who are persuasive to me.

[Teresa]

I see - you feel you (Alex) can do a better job - with everything - than the big guy engineers who actually design these things.

 

Yawn - I seriously doubt your PC even comes close to a stock Mac Mini, which has Apple designed motherboards, power supplies, and pretty much everything else, inpcluding custom video processing to handle -oh 14.7 million pixels on the screen.

 

But you keep believing that, and that two bit identical files can sound different because your bits are better than mine. $)

 

Paul, personally I will have to stick with the engineers who actually designed my computer as I am a music lover not a computer nerd. I also don't care if anyone's bits are better than mine as I don't have to have the best, just what I enjoy listening to music through and what I can afford. The quest for the best will never be realized and only leads to audiophilia nervosa, which is a desire that can ruin lives, thank goodness I've never been bitten.

 

Alex (sandyk) not everyone is loaded with spare money! A stock Mac Mini is $479.99 at Best Buy. Add about $200 more for a Mac Mini with 8 GB RAM if you want to play double DSD and 384kHz PCM with memory play using a player such as Pure Music. This is what I have and I am very happy with the sound quality with both DSD and high resolution PCM through my Teac DAC connected with an inexpensive 10 foot Dynex USB cable. Not everyone is rich.

 

From my point of view, if I hear a difference for the better, I have to ask myself: is the equipment or gadget within my budget and do I think the improvement is worth the cost? To a poor person such as me the answer is much different than to a rich person. Just saying.

[dapla]

Not to take on fanboy trappings, but Jud is one of the major reasons (there have been a handful of such contributors) I've decided to join, habituate, and participate a bit in this forum.

 

I even PM'ed him (once, and with due consideration as such is rare for me) for a very pedestrian (I'd assume especially to him) piece of advice, which he graciously provided and I followed.

 

Per expertise, one of my relevant hats here is having been a senior moderator on a staff of seven on a very dynamic message board with a > 80,000 membership for over a decade. When I find regular posters who display humility, an open mind but with discernment and accountability, while still projecting an obviously high level of intelligence in general along with specific areas of serious expertise via both education and direct experience, I consider them resources I really appreciate.

 

More ego-driven and troublesome "personality" (developmental) behaviors in communication often (and greatly) undermine whatever useful content might be otherwise available. A little humility and mutual respect as a default position can go a very long way in terms of achieving the most productive results when communicating with others---assuming that's what actually desired, and while it's not as colorful to some readers as being some form of ass.

[plissken]

Now there are folks who enjoy arguing, and perhaps you're one of them.

 

There are folks who enjoy debating despite the fact that AQ lists, advertises, and promotes their cables as CAT7 and they aren't.

 

Perhaps you're one of them.

 

It's falsely advertised. Materially they are not CAT7.

 

How you can run at the mouth like you did and not get the most basic fact: they aren't CAT7 cables.

[Teresa]

What the AudioQuest page for RJ/E Ethernet – Vodka actually says:

 

HIGH-SPEED DATA CAPACITY: The Cat 7 cable standard has been created to allow 10- Gigabit Ethernet over 100 m of copper cabling.

 

Here is what Kurt Denke of BJC said"

 

Denke opened his explanation by saying that BJC isn’t equipped to test to "category 7" specifications, to which the Vodka cable is labeled as conforming (indeed, there is no universally agreed-upon "category 7" standard for Ethernet cables—it has an ISO spec, but not a TIA type). However, using a $10,000 Fluke network analyzer, Denke tested out the Vodka to category 6a spec. The results were what can best be described as a "marginal pass."

 

"While the cable did pass 6A patch cord standards it did so within the tester's margin of error—meaning that if it were run on a variety of well-calibrated testers it might sometimes fail," explained Denke in his analysis. "The difficulty, as is typical for Cat 6A, was near-end crosstalk."

So my question is could a Cat 7 cable have trouble with near-end crosstalk as this cable is assumed to have in Blue Jeans Cable's test?

 

Also does the Vodka provide 10- Gigabit Ethernet over 100 m of copper cabling which is what Cat 7 is supposed to do?

 

I am curious and anyone wanting to sue them for false advertising should be curious as well.

 

I also want to point out that AudioQuest is one of the few high-end cable companies that still makes inexpensive entry-level cables, so Blue Jeans Cable is one of their competitors at the lower price points.

[plissken]

What the AudioQuest page for RJ/E Ethernet – Vodka actually says:

 

HIGH-SPEED DATA CAPACITY: The Cat 7 cable standard has been created to allow 10- Gigabit Ethernet over 100 m of copper cabling.

 

It's not even any of that. They are using a connector that is 8P8C and not GG45.

 

Their page says nothing about 6A or 6 standards.

 

Telegaertners own page list the ISO spec of their termination as 6A. It's sad that a $340 cable is marginal at best.

[Teresa]

Thanks Plissken. I just did a google search and did some reading on CAT 7 and many feel it's an unnecessary spec as Cat 6A does 10-gigabit ethernet so if AudioQuest just changed their wording to Cat 6A would their statement then be correct?

 

BTW I can't afford $340 of any kind of audio or digital cable no matter what it sounds like, how about you?

[plissken]

Thanks Plissken. I just did a google search and did some reading on CAT 7 and many feel is an unnecessary spec as Cat 6A does 10-gigabit ethernet so if AudioQuest just changed their wording to Cat 6A would their statement then be correct?

 

Holy cow. Thank you Teresa.

 

AQ should do two things:

 

1. Get someone to pull 20/30 cables and test them.

 

If there are a good amount of marginal 6A then retest for 6. If they are solid 6 then change the page to reflect that.

 

2. If they want them to be 6A then they need to be solid 6A (as in no questionable measurements) then bone up on terminating these things.

 

My main bone of contention is that AQ is supposed to be the Expert of Experts in the cabling business since they get to command a premium.

 

It's like the comparison of the engineering of Mac products vs PC products that you got a bit slammed on prior just to find out the Mac eeks barely into some sort of spec but the PC that is 1/3 of the price bests the measurements by a fair margin.

 

You can be sure as the day is long that Apple would be held to account. And they have been for graphics gpu issues and antenna issues in their phones.

 

The fact is that a cable of mine that is ~ 1/30th of the cost and it's minimum worst spec is over 200% better than the AQ cable measured.

 

This shouldn't be happening with AQ.

[Paul R]

Very good questions.

 

Here is what I know:

 

On mains power with a Linear DC power supply there was no noise on the measurement mic. So it was below the noise floor of the room.

 

On mains power with the Switcher you could hear mouse movement and disk access from the listening position. Basically almost like squelch, tittering.

 

I didn't test any further than that. I was primarily curious about the switch mode power supply and I was able to answer the question I had.

 

I just stuck with the linear regulated DC supply and connected the shield back to TRS and went on my way.

 

I had no data that prompted me to chase the mains power.

 

Which all makes sense to me, but isn't enough to draw a generalized opinion from. It may be good thing to test for though...

 

When we looked at migrating away from FCA we also looked at Microsofts SAS/JBOD and SOFS. But there is a major Achilles heal with that solution in the form of read speeds.

 

So we are HP for iSCSI, HP Procurve for Switch Fabric, full mesh.

 

IBM DS8800's at work. Funny thing is, there is an HP switch in the back of it. I didn't put it there, it came from IBM that way.

 

 

 

Home is a ReadyNAS 304 in with bonded NICs to a Cisco SG Switch. Also have a $400 AMD Kabini based system with 16GB RAM running MS's free hypervisor with file sharing services installed.

 

I've got 8 VM's running on that at one time just because I was curious. Has 1TB of mirrored SSD. Dual Intel GB NIC in a team.

 

As a note: If anyone here wants a free Windows 2012 Core based file server that's the way to go!

 

You have to know PowerShell and the Command Prompt to get it going however.

 

My 2.0 computer is on it's own WAP with it's own SSD. Wireless is the best way to go.

 

Also Cisco for a while was giving away a free Meraki WAP if you did a webinar with them. That's a $1000 AP for nutin'. Much better than a $340 Ethernet cable.

 

Home core storage is an aging IBM DS3524 - works nicely. Switches are older Cisco 3750's with appropriate GBICs.

 

Meraki is really nice, but I won't buy gear that just stops working unless I pay ransom some number of years down the road.

 

-Paul

[plissken]

Switches are older Cisco 3750's with appropriate GBICs.

 

Meraki is really nice, but I won't buy gear that just stops working unless I pay ransom some number of years down the road.

 

-Paul

 

LOL. I have a few 3750's POE's collecting dust. They are worth more for a backup then trying to ebay or Craigslist.

 

But alas I was tired of 11Mbit/Second.

[Paul R]

LOL. I have a few 3750's POE's collecting dust. They are worth more for a backup then trying to ebay or Craigslist.

 

But alas I was tired of 11Mbit/Second.

 

11mbit/Second? The Backplanes on these guys are 32gbs. (grin)

 

-Paul

[Tony Lauck]

Agreed. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

 

What happens if your screening suggestion leaves you with a zero participant pool to retake the test again to show consistency and repeatability?

 

You have wasted your time and money. You have nothing to show. More likely, given that you have wasted other people's (unpaid) time as well, you are probably a PITA.

[Blizzard]

Meanwhile everyone argues about trivial insignificant matters, I'm enjoying the sweet analog like purity of Paul Simon's 24/96 PCM remaster of "Hearts and bones"

 

I highly suggest the same for anyone willing to take a break from the insanity.

 

Bonus tracks will make everyone forget about Ethernet cables.

[completeluxury]

so ive just had a look at the audioquest price list (im a dealer) and in the data cable section there is this in a big box:

 

"All wired with cat-7 cable"

 

it doesnt say anywhere that it actually meets the cat7 spec. even the passage from the website doesnt say anywhere it actually conforms to the cat7 spec it just has that line about what the cat7 spec is meant to be.

 

Perhaps you fell for a bit of a marketing ploy but you are smart enough to know it couldnt be true.

[Tony Lauck]

That's far too sensible, but the hard line Objective mob would never accept that as proof, because it wouldn't give them the negative/NIL results they so desperately need to see.

They almost invariably need to control the proceedings, otherwise they will refuse to accept any results that don't meet their expectations.

Of course, if your results under pressure did result in their favoured outcome, they will then seize on those results as vindicating their stance. Talk about hypocrites !

 

I found it more than a little entertaining when "Mr. ABX" was confronted with Amir's successful double blind tests on the audibility of hi-res audio vs. Redbook on Amir's "What's Best Forum" after Amir passed a number of "impossible" tests. As a result, Amir was accused of cheating. There is no arguing with people who are not interested in the truth, no matter where the chips may land.

 

What was doubly entertaining was that Amir considers himself to be an "objectivist".

[Tony Lauck]

The actual testing methodology by Martin Colloms wasn't detailed in either the various threads in HFC Forum or the magazine, and I refused to demand information on exactly how the 6 Blind Tests were actually performed, the actual dates of each session performed, or the number of participants involved, as the people who disbelieve the results, or won't accept them, wouldn't be likely to accept any further information that I requested and received from Martin anyway.

They are at liberty to directly ask him these questions themselves, but refuse to do so.

As far as I am concerned, a qualified E.E. with >30 years experience as a technical writer, magazine Editor and Hi Fi equipment reviewer ,is more than capable of correctly performing such tests.

If you are still interested , I can provide links to the various HFC Forum threads and the too brief article in HFC Vol.6 no.1 via a P.M.

Alex

 

P.S.

I will not be further responding to requests or attacks from the usual closed minded and sarcastic Objective crowd who have NO technical qualifications in this area.

 

I read that article some time ago and I was not convinced. I don't recall all of the details, but my recollection was that there were a number of different variables that were uncontrolled. My recollection also was that the people involved didn't know enough about the details of the technology involved to be able to design and execute a competently controlled experiment.

 

I find the problem further complicated because I have reached the conclusion that nearly half of all the players in the high end audio game are of questionable competence and/or ethics, based on reading magazine articles, product web sites, marketing web sites and spec sheets. This makes it difficult to trust many people who are "authorities" on audio. Accordingly, I tend to go on my own personal experience, i.e. what I can hear with my own two ears, such as they are, and FWIW (which is a lot to me, probably close to nothing for anyone else).

[mmerrill99]

Meanwhile everyone argues about trivial insignificant matters, I'm enjoying the sweet analog like purity of Paul Simon's 24/96 PCM remaster of "Hearts and bones"

 

I highly suggest the same for anyone willing to take a break from the insanity.

 

Bonus tracks will make everyone forget about Ethernet cables.

I'm enjoying Patty Griffin "American Kid" - just a couple of cheesy tracks on it but all the rest are excellent.

[jabbr]

11mbit/Second? The Backplanes on these guys are 32gbs. (grin)

 

-Paul

 

Hey Paul, how do you get your Macs on the SAN?

 

(This is an honest question-- shouldn't have to qualify that but this thread has brutal parts:)

 

Jon

[YashN]

I found it more than a little entertaining when "Mr. ABX" was confronted with Amir's successful double blind tests on the audibility of hi-res audio vs. Redbook on Amir's "What's Best Forum" after Amir passed a number of "impossible" tests. As a result, Amir was accused of cheating. There is no arguing with people who are not interested in the truth, no matter where the chips may land.

 

That was a good laugh and can turn one into a total cynic.

 

Even more than that, I think Mr. ABX then even dismissed his own audio files for ABX testing as inadequate after exhausting all other possibilities (I think they involved keys jangling).

[Blizzard]

I'm enjoying Patty Griffin "American Kid" - just a couple of cheesy tracks on it but all the rest are excellent.

 

The pros on here have no time for such nonsense.

 

Easy to tell the "Forum educated" from the "real world educated"

[jabbr]

...

Also does the Vodka provide 10- Gigabit Ethernet over 100 m of copper cabling which is what Cat 7 is supposed to do?

 

I am curious and anyone wanting to sue them for false advertising should be curious as well.

 

I also want to point out that AudioQuest is one of the few high-end cable companies that still makes inexpensive entry-level cables, so Blue Jeans Cable is one of their competitors at the lower price points.

 

See if anyone really cared, all you'd have to do would be to plop the cable in a 10gbase-T network and test it. That would only be if anyone cared.

[sandyk]

I read that article some time ago and I was not convinced. I don't recall all of the details, but my recollection was that there were a number of different variables that were uncontrolled

 

Tony

The original article in HFC Vol.6 No.1 gave the appearance to me of being hastily thrown together in order to meet a publishing deadline.

It was even stated that I was from New Zealand, not Sydney N.S.W. which Martin was aware of from previous correspondence.

There was a great deal more information given in the various HFC Forum threads.

We can't say that a number of different variables were uncontrolled, simply because there was scant information given on how they were conducted.

Perhaps you were thinking of the TAS220 and 221 reports, which even Martin (privately) had some issues with.

Statements such as a .wav file will further degrade with each successive copy certainly didn't help their case, although their findings broadly supported ours.

My own personal findings are that the amount of degradation is mainly set by how electrically quiet the computer used is.

Martin Colloms is an E.E, and also a speaker designer, with >30 years experience as a technical writer, reviewer and magazine editor, and would certainly be well aware of the requirements for meaningful results.

Of course, time is money with a magazine that doesn't rely on advertising for it's existence, and they wouldn't have had time for the numerous additional tests demanded by some here such as Eloise .

See also http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/linear-powered-rips-and-flash-drives-sound-better-alex-was-right-22116/

 

Regards

Alex

[plissken]

so ive just had a look at the audioquest price list (im a dealer) and in the data cable section there is this in a big box:

 

"All wired with cat-7 cable

 

Best case scenario is they are playing fast and loose.

 

My read on the consumer facing page is they are making a straight up claim to CAT7 all in.

 

They could say they are using ISO spec CAT7 cable with ISO/TIA spec 6a connectors. But alas they are not.

 

Could you imagine the gnashing of teeth here if Apple tried such a slight of hand:

 

Wireless with Qualcomms 802.11AC chipset but to find out they terminated the chipset with 802.11N antennas but their site didn't make any mention of the latter?

 

I'm sure that would be fine with you.