Equipment isolation and vibration damping.

bdiament · July 2, 2015

a lot of the talk in this thread is completely over my head, but one probably very stupid question i have about the set just posted.

its 6 bases and 3 balls.. is it 1 base per support on each device? for instance most amps have 4 feet, so you replace each of those with one of the bases? or is it a top and a bottom and then a ball to go in the middle?

Hi completeluxury,

The idea (as I see it) is to lift the component off its own feet. Since 3 points determine a plane, it is easier to level 3 than to level 4. (If the bottom of whatever is resting on the roller bearings is not dead flat, there may be poor--or no--contact with the 4th point. Poor contact would lead to "chatter" which would add brightness and hardness to the sound. Proper rollers will not alter the tonality. The issue does not exist with only 3 points of contact.)

As to 6 bases and 3 balls, I believe the intent is to use a base on top of, as well as below, each ball. I suggest folks might want to try both but my own experience is that a base on top will actually *hinder* performance. If the top has a "bowl" in it, it will add damping to ball motion, thus diminishing isolation. If the top is flat, aside from the inconvenience of having to set up and balance 3 tops while placing the component atop the arrangement, there is a risk of chatter and brightening. I have found this to be the case whenever I've tried bases on top. Therefore, I prefer no tops, either placing the component directly in contact with the balls or, if the component chassis does not have a very smooth, very hard bottom, using a single, large, smooth surface between the component and the rollers. I've had very good success with dead marble tiles, placed smooth side down. Then the component, on its own feet, atop the marble tile.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Barry

completeluxury · July 2, 2015

what about with speakers? obviously just sitting on 3 balls or even a flat surface on top of 3 balls wouldnt be great if something were to knock it... like my 6 month old nephew!

bdiament · July 2, 2015

what about with speakers? obviously just sitting on 3 balls or even a flat surface on top of 3 balls wouldnt be great if something were to knock it... like my 6 month old nephew!

Hi completeluxury,

This is definitely a concern. I warn guests who visit my studio/listening room that the speakers will move if they make contact.

One must watch out for guests, small children, pets (though my 60 lb dog loves to visit the studio and has never been a problem), etc.

Even with components like preamps and disc drives, one must develop a gentle touch, either stabilizing the gear with the other hand or with fingers on the same hand that is pushing a button.

Best regards,

Barry

jabbr · July 2, 2015

I am interested in 7075. Still price seem to be high. I checked their site, they offer 6 pcs 6061 for $75 regular price. So, $75 for a set of 6 in 6061 or $150 for a set of 6 in 7075 at 10 sets does not seem to be a group buy price? Second, why price difference between 6061 and 7075 is double? Would they offer more attractive price?

Well I do expect that our North American prices would be higher than other locations -- which is why someone suggested you might be able to get these made for $13/base :-)

Barry said <$50 set years ago but his set was 3, so for a set of 6 that's $75 for 3.

Mike @ ingressaudio: [email protected] needs to order metal, change his tooling, etc. and he wasn't really interested in taking on the job at 1 or 2 sets. I think that getting him to change his current product at the same price is in fact a very reasonable group buy. The 20 (minumum) set price of $130/set for the 7075 is very attractive to me. I and a friend are in for 12 sets and so that should do alot toward getting everyone else who wants these the $130/set price.

BTW: The only financial interest I have in this is getting a better price for myself and my friends. I am very grateful to those people who have provided their advice and experience regarding this, in particular Barry Diament who has graciously provided the design. I am still looking at ceramic bowls -- after trying out glass lenses which work but there is a consensus that glass is suboptimal -- I have suppliers who have offered to comp me a set of Titanium and/or Silicon Nitride bowls "Now what do we say we are making these for?" :) and my friend's uncle is looking at better prices for military spec carbide bearings. I think there is still more work to be done in the vertical isolation area. That said I am going ahead and roller bowl isolating essentialy all my electronic equipment that either is directly audio related or has a crystal clock: servers, switches, NAS etc.

Jon

AnotherSpin · July 2, 2015

what about with speakers? obviously just sitting on 3 balls or even a flat surface on top of 3 balls wouldnt be great if something were to knock it... like my 6 month old nephew!

Want to confirm Barry's words with my experience. Two points:

- My very heavy Apogee floorstanders (about 40 kg each) on very shallow bowls move freely, but everything is more stable than I was expecting before actually did it;

- 3 bottom bowls are ok, "top" bowls dampen the sound and should be avoided.

AnotherSpin · July 2, 2015

Mike @ ingressaudio: [email protected] needs to order metal, change his tooling, etc. and he wasn't really interested in taking on the job at 1 or 2 sets. I think that getting him to change his current product at the same price is in fact a very reasonable group buy.

Ok) I sent a pm to you.

completeluxury · July 2, 2015

unfortunately i dont have a listening room, my setup is in the living room. even if its more stable than anticipated i dont think i could leave it and not worry constantly.

the equipment side would be fine though... nobody touches my equipment but me or death ensues.

if his group buy is 6 feet and 3 bearings, perhaps you should ask to have the price adjusted for 6 feet and 6 bearings?

Jud · July 2, 2015

With regard to driver motion from a speaker or sub on roller bearings, my experience has been that with a properly designed roller bearing (resonance in the very low single digits), the bearing does not "see" the speaker or sub. In other words, the expected Newtonian reaction to the driver motion does not happen -- or if it does, it is of such small magnitude as to be audibly insignificant. There is no cancellation of driver motion and no Doppler effect -- not of any significance as far as I can tell. What there *is* is an apparent complete freeing of the speaker (or sub or whatever the component) to perform its best, with the isolated device exhibiting clear, immediate, and obvious improvements in every area of audio (or video) that I know how to describe.

As to the direction of ground borne vibrations, early in this thread, I mentioned that reading about the subject I learned the P (or primary) waves tend to travel horizontally, while the lesser S (or secondary) waves are vertical. That is, the big ones travel horizontally.

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

Barry, I think I may have asked about this once before and forgotten the answer, so forgive me: When you performed your speaker experiments, did they include speakers with big cone drivers, or were they exclusively speakers using panels?

bdiament · July 2, 2015

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bdiament · July 2, 2015

Barry, I think I may have asked about this once before and forgotten the answer, so forgive me: When you performed your speaker experiments, did they include speakers with big cone drivers, or were they exclusively speakers using panels?

Hi Jud,

My own experiments involved several different speaker designs, from multi-way cone-type speakers, to subwoofers with quite large cones (and large excursions), to my Maggies.

Best regards,

Barry

jabbr · July 2, 2015

I always encourage folks to *not* simply take my or anyone else's word for things and to try everything out for themselves. What I've found is that ground borne vibrations have a disproportionately larger effect on performance than any internally generated or airborne vibrations. In testing all these things out for myself, the conclusion I reached is that with well designed gear and a properly set up system, seismic vibrations were the ones I found to be of real concern. The only others I would add are those vibrations in the listening room (i.e., the characteristics of the space itself), which in my opinion, also need to be addressed if optimal system performance is the goal.

Barry, you are always gracious enough to suggest that we each come to our own conclusions, but the fact is that you've clearly done a great deal of work testing out various designs and materials to see what sounds best to you. I don't expect that I have your listening discrimination to start with, nor do I want to replicate your testing. I would much prefer to purchase whatever is reasonably best (reasonably means at reasonable price ). We have enough people to go ahead with an order of at least 20 sets (of 6). That said, if you are close to releasing a proprietary design which you have determined is better than what you are currently using, perhaps we could use the group to launch this? Any interest?

Regarding 3 or 6 chrome steel bearings, these are dirt cheap. I'm replacing them with a variety of other bearings that we will be comparing including: tungsten carbide (if we can source reasonably), silicon carbide, and silicon nitride. I'd be more than happy to "donate" my chrome bearings to anyone who wants extra

YashN · July 2, 2015

I suggest that you start a thread specially for this project: to discuus design, variations, pricing, tentative orders, etc. (too bad we don't have a 'Tweaks' sub-forum her in CA).

I think this thread is fine. Aren't we doing exactly that within it: discussing design, variations and tweaks?

YashN · July 2, 2015

Very good find, esldude, thanks for sharing. Great content and superb illustrations throughout.

Some interesting info in this 286 page PDF on Vibration isolation for gravitational wave detection.

Chapter two is about Euler springs. Other good info, though I haven't digested the entire document yet.

http://arcturus.ligo.caltech.edu/docs/public/P/P020028-00.pdf

bdiament · July 2, 2015

Hi Jon,

I've been so happy with the results from what I've called "iteration #1" that I have not spent a great deal of time on "iteration #2." From what I've found (and from what others who have used my design have reported to me of their comparisons), iteration #1 already outperforms the commercial designs it has been compared against.

Any good design is going to work well. I created my own simply to test a few ideas. I tried one of the commercial designs and despite my expectations that it would do nothing, it dropped my jaw with how much better the performance was with every audio or video component I isolated with it. It occurred to me that a few fundamental changes might make for even better performance, so I drew up my own design, had prototypes made, and compared. The result was that I went back to the machinist and had him make me more -- enough for everything in the system, including the speakers and subwoofers.

With the caveats in mind that I noted at the end of Vibration control for better performance, I hope others get to enjoy what has had me smiling ever since I tried this. (I am grateful to those who discovered this before I did for sharing it: Max Townshend in his products and writings, Clark Johnsen in his writings, and "Bill" from the Audiophile Society, who brought that commercial product into a meeting and passed it around, arousing my skepticism, curiosity, subsequent testing, learning, and ultimately, joy.)

Best regards,

Barry

YashN · July 2, 2015

One must watch out for guests, small children, pets (though my 60 lb dog loves to visit the studio and has never been a problem), etc.

I'd say one should also watch out for ourselves! It's so easy to forget you added this arrangement under the speakers when you're constantly tweaking all around it like I am doing currently.

YashN · July 2, 2015

The result was that I went back to the machinist and had him make me more -- enough for everything in the system, including the speakers and subwoofers.

Have you put one under your power distribution?

YashN · July 2, 2015

That said I am going ahead and roller bowl isolating essentialy all my electronic equipment that either is directly audio related or has a crystal clock: servers, switches, NAS etc.

Do you have an AC conditioner or AC power distributor? If so, try underneath this as well.

InfernoSTi · July 2, 2015

We have enough people to go ahead with an order of at least 20 sets (of 6).

I counted 19-21 depending on the final order (some said one or two, etc)...sounds like 20 to me! How do you want to do this? Perhaps we need to start the "other thread" to commit to the orders, decide how we would pre pay, etc. I'm not in a huge hurry (but others may be) so we may want to give this a little more time for folks to jump in?

bdiament · July 2, 2015

Have you put one under your power distribution?

Hi YashN,

Yes, there is a trio under my power distribution block too. They're under everything in the system. Under all the power supplies too.

That said, I find the effects here more subtle than under the other items--disc transport, converters, line stage, power amps, speakers, and subs.

Outside of the speakers and subs, everything--including the power distribution and power supplies--is also isolated in the vertical plane with air bearings. (Everything but the speakers and subs are on my Enjoyyourshelf racks, which have an independent, multiple-axis suspension for each shelf. That's why I call the rack "the world's first piece of furniture with a fully independent suspension." ;-})

Best regards,

Barry