Equipment isolation and vibration damping.

[YashN]

I use it under all components.

 

That's the plan: I'm doing that along the way as I get the material.

 

In fact, my plan is to actually also float the listener...

[YashN]

I had prototypes made in both 6061 and 7075.

In the listening, I felt the 7075 was the better one (though I wouldn't call the difference "night and day"), so I had all the ones for my system made from the 7075.

 

Interesting to see we can tweak by choosing the type of aluminium.

[bdiament]

Interesting to see we can tweak by choosing the type of aluminium.

 

Hi YashN,

 

My feeling is that the two materials do not differ in terms of color but in terms of how efficient the isolator is.

Same as switching from a Chrome Steel to one of Tungsten Carbide: the color is the same with the latter but the effect is more pronounced. (If it didn't cost orders of magnitude more, I'd have gone with TC.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

[Lee Henley]

That's interesting reading John, I don't suppose you have a link to the door stops which you used as they do look like something I could experiment with myself

 

hi YashN … a lot of good stuff in this thread.

 

 

7 years ago I also took my GF’s pancake tray, used some marbles & bamboo !!!

You are not alone in trying these experiments.

Good times.

 

 

Re-reading this thread to try to come up to speed. Some stuff will echo that of others, some may conflict, some may be new thoughts … but afterall this is just my opinion.

 

 

Plus most of my experimentation was between 2005 and 2010 … so I am a bit rusty on this topic. I actually did night school at university (first year physics) back in 2010 to understand the “why” of things in relation to audio … like sound waves, power & energy (mechanical, kinetic)… but the more I learn … the more I realise I don’t know. During lecture breaks my Physics professor must have thought “Oh no … here comes the audiophile!” when I approached him.

 

 

Anyway, I will add to my isolation/resonance “journey” or tale of “Audiophile gone wild”.

 

 

Still .. Post 3 in this thread by Barry Diament… and post by John Swenson on ALU stand out the most to me.

 

 

Afterall it was Barry’s “Vibration control for better performance” that became my template and reference for the start of my experiments … I also thought it was quite brave & courageous to write an article like that … the benefits of isolation were less well known than they are today. Then again, who dares … wins. I had started research on Audiogon … yet it was not until I read “Vibration control for better performance” that I had a great & inexpensive base for experimenting. Also intriguing to hear John Swenson thoughts on ALU … I have heard remarks from other audio designers (like the guy from Arcam), though really never understood fully the technical “why” of why I like ALU … I just trust my ears (as well as some effort on learning this topic … plus experimenting).

 

 

 

 

Statements like below, echo my thoughts … I could not be that eloquent.

 

 

“Now, what I've learned in my own experiments is that just about anything you put under (or atop) a component will change its sound. The operative word is "change" which should not be confused with "improve." Couplers like spikes and cones *will* change the sound but what I've found is the change is somewhat random and inconsistent from component to component. These are ideal for folks who want to play with the "color" of their components. But they aren't the same as isolating a component and freeing it to do what(ever) it can do. (By the way, in my view, the idea of an "isolation cone" is an oxymoron, like "jumbo shrimp" or "civil war.")"

 

 

 

Below is a photo of some things I have tried as footers...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19301[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

Apart from the bicycle tube … everything listed below seem to alter the sound , not always in a positive way. “Wasted” or “Invested in experimenting” about $400 on the stuff mentioned below (plus the different platform materials mentioned at the end of this long post).

 

 

Blu-Tak … under speakers … smeared the sound

Sand Filled Box’s … under components … not much effect

Brass Cone …. lasted a week

Ceramic Cone …. dry

Ebony Wood Cone … wood seems to focus on the mid-rage

ALU cone … (I always mistype Aluminum, so just abbreviate it to ALU)

1/2 Squash Balls

Full Squash Balls …. red dot, yellow dot

Sorbathane … various thickness … smears sound … may as well throw a rug over my speakers

Acryllic … various thickness … not for me … maybe I did not try the right combo with platform material

Marbles … liked the effect, saw the potential, which I was I got the Nordost Quasar Points mentioned later.

 

 

Things I did not try ;

$1K Carbon Fibre shelves

Expensive “Racing” Cones

Titanium … or anything else which was "Unobtanium"

Laboratory Isolation Platforms

 

 

I also tried putting a spring inside some sort of rubber material … trying to echo my Townshend Springs … but it was just not stable … or good.

 

 

Not shown is Nordost Pulsar Points. Just OK (even if it made out of ALU).

Thins sound out a bit.

 

 

Also tried Nordost Quasar (?) Points … 2 piece of ALU with a roller ball bearing in the middle.

That was the most effective of everything listed above (reminded me of the marbles , though a bit better)… now I was getting somewhere. Still, I liked the Bicycle tube.

 

 

Though I did find combing them provided cumalative benefits.

That is;

Nordost Quasar points on hifi rack shelf

Some type of shelf material

Bicycle Tube

Another layer of shelf material

DAC

 

 

Well, the above is still kind of following BD’s recipe (the benchmark for starting my experiments).

 

 

At that time I also found I that I preferred no Footers … at all.

So I removed the footers from my equipment … and rested thing like DAC, CD players, PS3 on plates of 10mm ALU.

See photo ...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19304[/ATTACH]

 

 

So my final favourite items to place between ALU plates ... ended up being very inexpensive (the $1 Steel Sand filled Door Stops with rubber base) or pricey (the Townshend Springs or Pods).

A better photo below...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19305[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

Another thing …. Sand … 50 lbs (can not remember exactly) in my steel/glass hifi racks, stopped the steel ringing.

 

 

 

 

Oh … another thing I tried was an ALU piece called the “Eichmann Resonance Topper"

Above or below equipment I could not detect any benefit.

On top of speakers …. I noticed a very slight focussing of sound … not worth the money though for that application.

Finally I re read the instructions on the back … and it suggests sticking them to your windows … and this is when I really noticed a worthwhile benefit. Stuck a Topper into the very corner of window … so 4 Toppers per window in my listening rooms. This seemed to help nicely with airborne vibration.

See photo below.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19306[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19307[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

Then I got the thought … maybe some rubber window seals … and applied these to all sliding windows in the house.

See photo below.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19308[/ATTACH]

 

 

It dropped the sound coming into the house by a few decibel … also prevented sound of my speaker rig escaping by a few decibel.

 

 

… mmm, what else ….

 

 

 

 

I like placing ALU on top of components if possible …. as well as directly under (with no footer. Made a nice improvement to my BenchMark DAC1 Pre. It is difficult to see but I have 10mm plate of ALU on top of the Benchmark DAC1 Pre, very beneficial)

See photo below..

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19304[/ATTACH]

 

 

Photo is a bit old (no longer have the PS3 replaced it with an Oppo BDP-103).

 

 

Photo below is more recent … I have the ALU above and below the Oppo BDP-103.

Though most of my experimentations ended back in 2010 … I still play around determining how much effect on each component.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19309[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

Oh, nearly forgot … the one thing I have found little benefit for isolating is my Isolation Transformers and Balanced Power Supplies (similar to what EquiTech make in the USA).

They weight 40 to 60 lbs … some of them can be seen in the above photo … they sound best when not on the floor …. so have put them on my headphone rack … tested placing them on isolation platforms … but for some reason I do not like it …. do not know why … they have huge transformers in them (hence the weight) … I placed a sheet of ALU underneath them (10mm thick) and they appear to like that … rather than being directly on the glass shelves of my headphone rack.

 

 

 

 

After Speakers … I still find the DAC the most sensitive … though I am experimenting still … so my Townshend Springs, $1 Door Stops and ALU plates tend to move around … currently trying to work out … if a double layer of springs is better under DAC … or have 1 set under DAC, another under the Oppo.

 

Below are some photo’s from a few months ago … if I tried this in the Living Room (instead of the Man Cave) I think my GF would kill me. My current project is how far I can improve a lifestyle product like my Auralic Gemini 2000 DAC/Headphone Amp … using Isolation techniques … better Linear Power … and better USB (USB Regen). Looks weird, but I am chuffed at the SQ result.

Photos ... hopefully these have better lighting than the previous one's ... I am not good at taking photo's

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19312[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19313[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19314[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

As of today … My current DIY reference stands… is using 2 sets or layers of springs … I think I am getting the right amount of both vertical & horizontal isolation… the right amount of “Float”.

 

 

Trying 3 sets of springs currently under my DAC … but not hearing anymore benefit.

 

 

Nearly forgot … by the way, I also tested a number of materials for platforms, but this post is already becoming “War & Peace”, that is a long novel.

So briefly ...

Acryllic … 5, 10, 20, 25 mm thickness … not a fan, seem to remove some energy out of music … I had hoped better results for Acryllic as it is used in some Turntable designs … maybe I had the wrong quality/thickness. This result surprised me. Then again I could be completely wrong about this material.

Granite slab…. no good … rings

Marble slab 20mm thick … good … 25mm better … 30mm best

American Maple … nice but not great

Bamboo … liked it a bit better than maple

Glass 10mm safety shatterproof … like those on my hifi rack's … not good … should replace them with shelves of ALU.

 

 

 

ALU 10mm plates … best material I have found so far … for platform shelves.

 

 

 

 

My findings are just that … my experience … if other’s have found different experiences, that is great too (like with different materials) … excellent !!! …. I am glad you advanced your setup so you can get even more enjoyment out of music … I am not out to diminish anyone else’s experience , beliefs or fun … my thoughts should only be taken as one data point … of just one guy experimenting (who is not an audio professional or engineer). Plus I could wrong, it certainly would not be the first time.

 

 

Anyway, I love Music and the Audio equipment aspect is just a hobby for me, and shall remain fun … plus like everyone else who is contributing to this thread … there definitely seems to be benefits in exploring this area of isolation/resonance.

 

 

So much great information just on the first page of this thread … though I think I will go back to researching what all the fuss is about OXCO Clocks and determining if I need them. Time for me to be confused in another area

 

 

I do not post much.

YahsN, I hope you get something out of my experience, It was a bit of fun experimenting.

 

 

John

[AnotherSpin]

Already did: a large spring would do. If you opt for several springs, you would need to ensure the lowest combined natural frequency.

Can you share a picture(s)? Thank you.

[Lee Henley]

Do you think something like this would work for the ball and cup method

 

Surgical Steel Concave Flared Flesh Plug- Buy Jewellery

[Daudio]

Do you think something like this would work for the ball and cup method

 

Surgical Steel Concave Flared Flesh Plug- Buy Jewellery

 

Lee,

 

The largest one there is only 16mm in diameter, or about 5/8", which is pretty small compared to the devices we've been talking about here.

 

The inside curvature looks pretty small and deep, requiring a larger ball to clear the top, making the ball to bowl curvature ratio very low. I don't like the look of the 'bowl' either, it looks too imprecise (low concentricity) for good performance as an isolation device.

 

I do like the double concavity through, reminds me of the underside of the Symposium Series 2 blocks.

 

Sorry, but nice try anyway !!

[InfernoSTi]

I'm pretty astounded that folks here are taking on projects that need ultra-precise machining to compete with the better off-the-shelf components. But if it works!!! .

 

You might want to try 7075 aluminum. It's much harder and also machines more easily than 6061, which has a greater toughness. However, I couldn't remotely say which quality is more desirable in this application.

 

Because it is cheap and fun! I have also ordered 8 of these which are going under my main speakers (no DIY there).

 

Rollerblock HDSE

 

Yes, they are upgraded to 7075 and better balls and better dishes.

 

The cost of that little project is $800. The cost to play with my three sets of aluminum and balls and dishes is under $200 for three pieces of equipment plus I can add tires and such and try to get an idea of what is worth trying and what isn't. If folks were using wood cups and the undersides of their equipment, I don't think my choices are any worse (and perhaps much better).

 

I will probably end up changing to full Symposium rollers/dishes for everything as funds permit. The equipment can use the lower end model that is about $200 per set of three, so that would be another $600. Of course I could still use the DYI items under other things such as my woofer plate amps, so that isn't entirely throw away money.

 

The Symposium products are simply better made products than I can construct at home or with a machine shop so that is the way I will go now that I've tried some DIY experiments.

[YashN]

Can you share a picture(s)? Thank you.

 

Check this out, but also check the specs below. There are at least 3 springs, probably 4, and the specs provided say this:

 

1) The vertical vibration is 2.3Hz~4.9Hz and the damper ratio is 0.02~0.06

 

We'd need something similar but with lower frequency, probably a single large spring would suffice.

[YashN]

Same as switching from a Chrome Steel to one of Tungsten Carbide: the color is the same with the latter but the effect is more pronounced. (If it didn't cost orders of magnitude more, I'd have gone with TC.)

 

Yes, the TC is quite prohibitive for low budgets indeed. I'll see if I can source some chrome steel balls from surplus stores online.

 

Been listening to your own 'Grace Jones - Island Life', and 'INXS - Listen Like Thieves' for testing, among a lot of other albums!

[YashN]

The Symposium products are simply better made products than I can construct at home or with a machine shop so that is the way I will go now that I've tried some DIY experiments.

 

They look really stylish.

[Daudio]

I'll see if I can source some chrome steel balls from surplus stores online.

 

 

Try Loose Steel, Ceramic Bearing Balls Online - VXB Bearing online

[AnotherSpin]

Check this out, but also check the specs below.

I guess there are many pictures of various springs online... I decided you implemented some solutions at home already. Sorry.

[YashN]

I guess there are many pictures of various springs online... I decided you implemented some solutions at home already. Sorry.

 

Nope, just using the cup-and-ball for now, but I have designed an arrangement for both cup-and-ball and vertical isolation with spring for speakers which should work well but it necessitates a special stand and support for the speaker.

[InfernoSTi]

They look really stylish.

 

And I trust them under my main (large) speakers. The threads even match!

 

The aluminum plates were the bulk of the DIY purchase, by the way ($150) and those will remain in the system as platforms, so really only $50 "play" money was spent trying this out. I would say that just going to roller balls is very much worth the effort.

 

Perhaps if someone were to do a "group buy" with a machine shop, a bunch of folks could get some aluminum dishes machined and save on cost? Given that I wouldn't mind these under a bunch of stuff but only some of it will get off the shelf Symposium kits, I would participate. Thoughts?

 

John

[YashN]

If he's the same Townshend who made the Rockport headshell-side fluid damping, I'm already a big fan of his work.

 

That should be Rock 7 and not Rockport (the latter are speakers and there's also an unrelated Rockport turntable).

 

The Townshend video linked before is very cool.

 

The seismic pod use air-damping: the air inside the rubber sleeve is an integral part of the design.

[YashN]

Try Loose Steel, Ceramic Bearing Balls Online - VXB Bearing online

 

Good link, thanks.

[JohnSwenson]

Barry answered about glass already. Steel - the same issues, I'd prefer to use aluminum here.

 

Actually glass probably works very well. The main problem is that it need to be REALLY smooth. Because of its hardness the ball does not indent the glass very much, which means as it is rolling it will feel a lot of microscopic imperfections. The optical mirrors and lenses are probably quite good because the glass has been highly polished. But a plain ordinary sheet of window glass does not necessarily have such a good smooth surface.

 

John S.

[AnotherSpin]

Actually glass probably works very well. The main problem is that it need to be REALLY smooth. Because of its hardness the ball does not indent the glass very much, which means as it is rolling it will feel a lot of microscopic imperfections. The optical mirrors and lenses are probably quite good because the glass has been highly polished. But a plain ordinary sheet of window glass does not necessarily have such a good smooth surface.

 

John S.

I tried glass several times to support components, and removed fast. In theory I could imagine excellent glass surface, but I am trying affordable DIY.

[Sam Lord]

Hi Sam,

 

When I first had my Hip Joints design machined, I had prototypes made in both 6061 and 7075.

In the listening, I felt the 7075 was the better one (though I wouldn't call the difference "night and day"), so I had all the ones for my system made from the 7075.

 

Best regards,

Barry

 

Gawd, I didn't know if you were pulling my leg (sic) or talking audio....the latter! (Only in CA...I need to follow your blog.) It's an odd balance: you want the two races, i.e. the top then the bottom contact points of the bearings, to be of different materials from the bearings to avoid galling. They would be more compliant than the bearings for cost reasons. I expect chrome-plated hard metal to be an ideal race surface but you would have to plate it after machining, then polish it. Aluminum always forms a quite stable oxide layer, but since that is just ultrafine sapphire crystals it's very hard along a thin layer. Of the glass slabs, I wonder if crystal would work well because the lead content would make it super-easy to polish. I expect it might be too soft, at least for heavy gear. Cheers

[bdiament]

Actually glass probably works very well. The main problem is that it need to be REALLY smooth. Because of its hardness the ball does not indent the glass very much, which means as it is rolling it will feel a lot of microscopic imperfections. The optical mirrors and lenses are probably quite good because the glass has been highly polished. But a plain ordinary sheet of window glass does not necessarily have such a good smooth surface.

 

John S.

 

Hi John,

 

In my experience, *if* one does not mind the change in tonality from the ringing (an immediate turn-off for me), glass *might* work for light components.

The thing is, glass flexes. I would not recommend it for this purpose.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

[bdiament]

Gawd, I didn't know if you were pulling my leg (sic) or talking audio....the latter! (Only in CA...I need to follow your blog.) It's an odd balance: you want the two races, i.e. the top then the bottom contact points of the bearings, to be of different materials from the bearings to avoid galling. They would be more compliant than the bearings for cost reasons. I expect chrome-plated hard metal to be an ideal race surface but you would have to plate it after machining, then polish it. Aluminum always forms a quite stable oxide layer, but since that is just ultrafine sapphire crystals it's very hard along a thin layer. Of the glass slabs, I wonder if crystal would work well because the lead content would make it super-easy to polish. I expect it might be too soft, at least for heavy gear. Cheers

 

Hi Sam,

 

Pulling your leg? Do you mean regarding the name? Or something else?

No joking intended. Sorry if I wasn't clear. (The name is explained in one of the blog entries.)

 

Not sure why the contact materials would need to be different. How would the ball "know"?

As it happens, I'm using different materials since the top is either dead marble tile (smooth side against the ball) or the chassis itself (if smooth enough).

My experience as an amateur astronomer and telescope enthusiast has shown me that glass is a lot more flexible than one might think. I would not use it for audio purposes (unless I was designing transparent bells ;-).

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

[4est]

If one was to use glass, maybe they should consider having it tempered. The change in surface tension might be of benefit.

Hi Sam,

 

Pulling your leg? Do you mean regarding the name? Or something else?

No joking intended. Sorry if I wasn't clear. (The name is explained in one of the blog entries.)

 

Not sure why the contact materials would need to be different. How would the ball "know"?

As it happens, I'm using different materials since the top is either dead marble tile (smooth side against the ball) or the chassis itself (if smooth enough).

My experience as an amateur astronomer and telescope enthusiast has shown me that glass is a lot more flexible than one might think. I would not use it for audio purposes (unless I was designing transparent bells ;-).

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

[jabbr]

 

In my experience, *if* one does not mind the change in tonality from the ringing (an immediate turn-off for me), glass *might* work for light components.

The thing is, glass flexes. I would not recommend it for this purpose.

 

I have no real desire to expend a bunch of time listening to different materials when you have already done the ground work -- and you undoubtedly have a much better ear for fine differences than I do that said...

 

Clearly any audio equipment with tubes would have to be a high priority for isolation. Speakers, amps sure ... A computer ... not as much. I am just suggesting that silicone putty may provide a reasonable backing material to 1) mate curved glass to flat metal 2) tone down the glass.

 

Regarding tungsten carbide vs cobalt chrome bearings ... hmmm.... when mated to a ***much*** softer aluminum bowl its really hard for me to see how this would make a difference. Wouldn't it be better to use a chrome steel bowl ... and if not, then maybe harder isn't always better in this application. If "dead" is better than live ... and hence aluminum ... then PEEK could be considered or ceramics.

 

Ideally we could do a group buy to machine say 2" 7075 alum discs with a gentle bowl (again while fascinating topic ... no time to do too much experimentation).

[AnotherSpin]

I have no real desire to expend a bunch of time listening to different materials when you have already done the ground work -- and you undoubtedly have a much better ear for fine differences than I do that said...

 

Clearly any audio equipment with tubes would have to be a high priority for isolation. Speakers, amps sure ... A computer ... not as much. I am just suggesting that silicone putty may provide a reasonable backing material to 1) mate curved glass to flat metal 2) tone down the glass.

 

Regarding tungsten carbide vs cobalt chrome bearings ... hmmm.... when mated to a ***much*** softer aluminum bowl its really hard for me to see how this would make a difference. Wouldn't it be better to use a chrome steel bowl ... and if not, then maybe harder isn't always better in this application. If "dead" is better than live ... and hence aluminum ... then PEEK could be considered or ceramics.

 

Ideally we could do a group buy to machine say 2" 7075 alum discs with a gentle bowl (again while fascinating topic ... no time to do too much experimentation).

 

I think Barry advises regarding materials and designs would be followed safely. I did almost everywhere, except marble plates - was not able to find proper hardness. Tried other materials, including some very hard ceramics, which was not bad. But what worked best for my speakers so far is polished hard aluminum plates between bottoms and bearings.