Equipment isolation and vibration damping.

[InfernoSTi]

sig8,

 

You have the basic ideas in place. The implementation is what is difficult where it relates to the puck with a recess. A couple of comments:

 

The plywood should be an inch or two wider than the tire size you select. So if you use an 18" tire, you should use a 20" x 20" plywood base. You don't want the tire to be larger than the plywood. The larger the tire, the easier it is to get things balanced (equipment can be uneven in weight distribution). Perhaps the larger the tire, the lower the resonance of the tire but that hasn't been established fully. Also, only inflate the tire to keep the weight off the valve stem, not to be firm. Less air pressure is better until you are resting on the valve stem at which point it is much worse, if that makes sense.

 

The puck you have shown is very nice but I don't think getting it machined will be so easy. I think getting a piece of stock in the right size will be easier to get machined. Folks have been saying to use 7075 aluminum. The idea of the recess is to have a centering tendency so that the equipment doesn't wander. But it is a very shallow sided recess so the ball can roll freely but will tend to find center after a while.

 

The size of the balls is in debate. Barry D settled on 1/2 inch but some say larger is better. Perhaps the main issue is that it needs to be taller than the depth of the recess in the puck so that it can contact the equipment or plate/tile under the equipment. The general consensus has formed around 1/2 inch but I don't think anyone is set on that figure as being a requirement.

 

Dressing your cables is important and they can be done so in a manner that they make less of a concern. If they limit the movement, they are too restrictive. I found that I can "bump" my equipment and it will move freely front/back and left/right back and forth until it finally settles down freely. If you can't do that, the cables need to be redressed.

 

I have found this has a great impact on the sound starting with my DAC first. Eventually it seems you float everything. My speakers are now on rollers (Symposium Jr HDs which are threaded to match my speaker bases so I am not worried about them being lightly bumped).

 

I would put this on the order of good physical acoustic treatments: clarity is enhanced and detail is exposed in a way that one wonders why everyone isn't using this technique. Others may wish to comment further...

 

John

[bdiament]

I have only read seven pages; so if some of my questions have been answered, please pardon me. I intend to read them all, I would like to try Barry's design and following are my questions:

 

 

1. As I understand, we need a piece of plywood, say 16”x16”- ¾” birch is a good start, a Bicycle Tube, say 18”, plywood goes on slightly inflated tube, then we need to place what I would call a steel puck (because it looks like that) with a dimple on one of the flat surface of the puck, then a steel ball on the dimple, and then we place our component on these three puck/steel balls in an equilateral triangle arrangement. I think all other things are simple to acquire; except the steel puck, so the questions:

2. Where to find the steel pucks. If we need to get them made, then what is the depth of the dimple, and what should be the radius of the curvature (that will give the diameter of the circle on the puck) of the dimple. Alternatively, I think a flat indentation will provide least contact area between the ball and the puck and would be lot easier to fabricate, unless there is another reason. I know equipment will sort of float in flat surface, but I think cables will provide restraint (that is another question if cables are connected then how we say it is isolated, but if works, that is good for now). Anyone found a steel cup with flat recess? I found this whiskey pucks Houdini Deluxe Stainless Steel Freezable Whiskey... : Target

If I can get a recess made on one side and polish it, I think it should work, it is 2” diameter and 1” high.

3. I have found tungsten carbide balls on Amazon; http://www.amazon.com/Tungsten-Precision-Tolerance-Diameter-Sphericity/dp/B00CNM7EL6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1436619788&sr=8-2&keywords=tungsten+carbide+balls

4. 3/8” are the largest on this site for about $6.42 each; are they big/small enough.

5. In my HQ Player setup I have an HQ Player PC, another NAA PC, DAC, pre-amp, and amp. I cannot float the speakers, too dangerous. Which is a good place to start, DAC or NAA pc?

 

Thanks.

 

Hi sig8,

 

I have had very good results using a 20" x 20" x 1" platform over an 18" x 1.75" inner tube.

I used a bowl shape (described in post #30) because this eliminates the need for *perfect* leveling and keeps the component centered over the roller bearings. For the size bowl I designed, I decided on 1/2" chrome steel balls. (Tungsten carbide sounded better to me but costs ~100 times more per ball.)

 

Floating speakers makes for benefits I found completely unexpected, and of such great magnitude, I referred to the non-floating speakers as "bound and gagged" by comparison. (I use roller bearings under the speakers, without air bearings. Everything else is on both rollers and air.)

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

[Daudio]

2. Where to find the steel pucks. If we need to get them made, then what is the depth of the dimple, and what should be the radius of the curvature (that will give the diameter of the circle on the puck) of the dimple. Alternatively, I think a flat indentation will provide least contact area between the ball and the puck and would be lot easier to fabricate, unless there is another reason. I know equipment will sort of float in flat surface, but I think cables will provide restraint (that is another question if cables are connected then how we say it is isolated, but if works, that is good for now).

 

Check out the following thread for a list of DIY and commercial roller block isolation devices - with dimensions, in most cases.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/roller-type-vibration-isolation-devices-info-24991/

 

I have a set of DIY acrylic bowl blocks with stainless steel balls, that I'm happy with

 

 

 

4. 3/8” are the largest on this site for about $6.42 each; are they big/small enough.

 

For making your own devices I'd recommend a shallow bowl, with a small diameter ball (I use 3/8") for maximum performance. I'd go larger in both for more centering and stability. Others have different preferences.

 

I've picked up batches of 3/4", 1/2", and 3/8" SS balls so I could try them out in different situations. They weren't that expensive to experiment with, and the smaller ones are even cheaper

[jabbr]

Sig8:

 

Craig balls has 1/2 inch tungsten carbide for $3-4 each. The are heavy and smooth -- haven't tested under microscope but don't expect that they are DoD spec. At that price not sure I care.

 

Jon

[YashN]

Craig balls has 1/2 inch tungsten carbide for $3-4 each.

 

Great price for TC.

[YashN]

2. Where to find the steel pucks. If we need to get them made, then what is the depth of the dimple, and what should be the radius of the curvature (that will give the diameter of the circle on the puck) of the dimple. Alternatively, I think a flat indentation will provide least contact area between the ball and the puck and would be lot easier to fabricate, unless there is another reason. I know equipment will sort of float in flat surface, but I think cables will provide restraint (that is another question if cables are connected then how we say it is isolated, but if works, that is good for now). Anyone found a steel cup with flat recess?

 

InfernoSTI covered a good reply. Here some additional thoughts: do take the time to read the whole thread or you may miss some good info (some others obviously did).

 

A flat surface would be better for isolation but comes with its own set of practical constraints. I would favour this for smaller, lighter components. Curvature isn't needed for isolation.

 

As a concave base, you could look for drawer 'pulls' which are so-shaped (or drawer knobs or handles for more British-oriented audiophiles). What you're looking for here is ideally the shallowest curve possible and the hardest, smoothest surface possible.

 

For a flat surface, I tested manually a very shallow pancake pan. Something similar to that would work as a flat rather than curved surface. If I could source some large, shallow dishes made of steel or aluminium, these are the ones I would look for.

 

For the platform, some people suggested metal, and wood. The important thing here is that the component is well connected to the upper surface and that the lower surface is smooth enough for the rolling of the ball below it.

 

3. I have found tungsten carbide balls on Amazon; Tungsten Carbide Sphere, Grade G25, Precision Ground, Precision Tolerance, Inch: Tungsten Metal Raw Materials: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

4. 3/8” are the largest on this site for about $6.42 each; are they big/small enough.

 

TC is very good for the ball material: it's very hard and durable, the only thing is that they're usually very expensive relative to the others.

 

I think Symposium describe why they settle on 1/2" balls instead of other sizes.

 

5. In my HQ Player setup I have an HQ Player PC, another NAA PC, DAC, pre-amp, and amp. I cannot float the speakers, too dangerous. Which is a good place to start, DAC or NAA pc?

 

The danger with the speakers is because the air-cushion will deflate with time, and an imbalance can wreak havoc. You could test solely the cup-and-ball with them but you will still need to be careful: the three points of contact describing the plane doesn't withstand a rotational imbalance around an axis within the horizontal plane, especially at the two back corners. After a threshold of this type of imbalance, the structure above will fall unless you have set up in place some safety fall-back support at the edges.

 

While measuring the speakers floating of the cup-and-ball I saw a 10x more motion readings along the driver axis compared to rest. This could be inducing some euphonic colouration.

 

Your setup is very good, I would certainly try with the Player PC, the NAA and the DAC first, then follow up with the amps.

[sig8]

I've been emailing Mike at Ingress Engineered Products and discussed modifying his current design to have a 1" wide, shallow bowl. Assuming we can get enough people together for a group buy, he could do either $75 for a set of 6 in 6061 or $150 for a set of 6 in 7075 at 10 sets or $130/set at 20 sets. Interest? I'm interested in the 7075 and would go for 6 sets, I have a friend that would go for a bunch also.

 

Barry, if you have something better, let us know now!

AnotherSpin?

jabbr: I am still reading through the pages, is this group buy happening/happened? I will be interested in a few sets, let me know please. Thank you

[AnotherSpin]

jabbr: I am still reading through the pages, is this group buy happening/happened? I will be interested in a few sets, let me know please. Thank you

 

I have a feeling group buy idea dissipated somewhere. Not so bad at all, we will follow our separate ways and compare various results to enrich mutual idea fund.

[sig8]

jabbr: I am still reading through the pages, is this group buy happening/happened? I will be interested in a few sets, let me know please. Thank you

jabbr: You can ignore this post. I have found the other thread, would be ordering some. Thanks.

[sig8]

Thank you all for responding to my questions. I have read the whole thread now, and think I will be joining the group buy jabbr has started.

[bdiament]

Thank you all for responding to my questions. I have read the whole thread now, and think I will be joining the group buy jabbr has started.

 

Hi sig8,

 

I hope you and all the others participating with jabbr find the same joys I've found when applying these to the system.

Happy Listening!

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

[YashN]

I know equipment will sort of float in flat surface, but I think cables will provide restraint (that is another question if cables are connected then how we say it is isolated, but if works, that is good for now).

 

You will want the cables to not cause undue drag on your floated component, maybe by supporting the cables themselves with some other way (or as I suggested, trying to float them too).

 

As an example with my experiments here: tried floating my DAC with the cup-and-ball, but my USB cable is relatively way too heavy and large so that it is actually keeping my DAC in place. This means that isolation of the DAC currently isn't effective.

 

I will need to build a new, smaller and lighter USB cable to make the DAC float effective.

[YashN]

It seems that the most effective resonance control solutions all claim to provide a path for drawing energy out of components in addition to providing isolation. I'm thinking Stillpoints, Nordost Sort Kones and Symosium with their couplers and maybe HRS too.

 

Isolation alone does nothing to deal with airborne vibration or vibration generated inside a component. That's not to say that isolation alone won't deliver big benefits. It's just that maybe a combination of strategies might be the best approach.

 

I am coming back to Kenny's short but important post indeed, having seen a video of the Nordost Sort Kones as well as thinking of another thread where a member was identifying the chips in his DAC so as to do internal vibration damping. The third related thing that came to mind were the Wave Kinetics feet with spherical balls which are said to also isolate from airborne vibration and the balls settle rapidly in place after such vibrations (taking into account that once we floated the speakers here with the c-and-b, airborne vibratins were perceived to be much louder).

 

So, let's assume the cup-and-ball successfully isolates the component from seismic P-waves for now, and we have a solution similar to the air-cushion or an alternative for the S-waves or vertical ones. Thus we have prevented the external vibrations from coming into our components.

 

However, these do nothing at all for vibrations which are internal (and I wonder how much the airborne vibrations affect components which have just been floated with the cup-and-ball too) to our components.

 

As additional strategies, we could resort to a couple of solutions:

 

1. Feet like Nordost Sort Kones and Waves Kinetics for lossy disruption on internal mechanical vibrations.

 

2. Internal damping with constrained layer or blu-tak on the chips or clocks or capacitors or some anti-vibration paint like that other member mentioned in the other thread (approximately 3 or 4 weeks ago).

 

I missed attending this time, but he Nordost Sort Kones demo at this show sounds convincing to my ears:

 

[video=youtube;NdND5c-VNl8]

[YashN]

I have read the whole thread now

 

Well done.

 

Don't forget the papers!

[sig8]

Well done.

 

Don't forget the papers!

 

Are you awarding a Ph.D. to me if I do that

 

Not yet, but I will get to those. Thanks.

[Daudio]

: tried floating my DAC with the cup-and-ball, but my USB cable is relatively way too heavy and large so that it is actually keeping my DAC in place. This means that isolation of the DAC currently isn't effective.

 

I will need to build a new, smaller and lighter USB cable to make the DAC float effective.

 

I'd suggest hanging the USB cable from a sling. Easy to make from 2 - 3 of those Velcro cable ties stuck together end-to-end, to make as long a sling as needed. Then, some means must be found to suspend the sling over the cables center of mass. I use a spring clamp attached to a higher shelf. The sling is looped around the USB cable, then tie a rubber band to the top of the sling, and hang it over the clamp wings. You can adjust the lift by the lengh of the sling, and Velcro is very easy to adjust.

[InfernoSTi]

I'd suggest hanging the USB cable from a sling. Easy to make from 2 - 3 of those Velcro cable ties stuck together end-to-end, to make as long a sling as needed. Then, some means must be found to suspend the sling over the cables center of mass. I use a spring clamp attached to a higher shelf. The sling is looped around the USB cable, then tie a rubber band to the top of the sling, and hang it over the clamp wings. You can adjust the lift by the lengh of the sling, and Velcro is very easy to adjust.

 

Or a mini slinky (per John S)...

[jabbr]

Or a mini slinky (per John S)...

 

Maybe the mini-slinky could be fashioned with a 90ohm impedance, could itself serve as the USB cable and would then require 4 regens:)

[YashN]

Are you awarding a Ph.D. to me if I do that

 

Not yet, but I will get to those. Thanks.

 

No but there are two very interesting Doctoral Dissertations you can read, on top of many other links and papers.

[YashN]

Maybe the mini-slinky could be fashioned with a 90ohm impedance, could itself serve as the USB cable and would then require 4 regens:)

 

My next USB cable build will be more than just a USB cable, no joke.

[YashN]

I'd suggest hanging the USB cable from a sling. Easy to make from 2 - 3 of those Velcro cable ties stuck together end-to-end, to make as long a sling as needed. Then, some means must be found to suspend the sling over the cables center of mass. I use a spring clamp attached to a higher shelf. The sling is looped around the USB cable, then tie a rubber band to the top of the sling, and hang it over the clamp wings. You can adjust the lift by the lengh of the sling, and Velcro is very easy to adjust.

 

Not sure it would work in my case: my current DIY USB cable is too long, too bulky and too heavy - just finding the space to let it rest normally is difficult, so imagine balancing it on another implement.

 

I have resorted to designing the next iteration which will solve the floating issue as well as improve on two enhancements already, and one of these enhancements is actually linked to the solution to the floating issue. Big win!

[Daudio]

Not sure it would work in my case: my current DIY USB cable is too long, too bulky and too heavy - just finding the space to let it rest normally is difficult, so imagine balancing it on another implement.

 

I was describing hanging/suspending the unattached parts of the cable. Nothing about balancing it on anything ???

 

Is your digital source so far away from your DAC that you need a lot of length, or is the cable coiled up ?

[sig8]

I know Barry has ssuccessfully implemented marble tile under equipment, and in my case almost everything is going to need something like a marble tile, and non- ringing marble tiles are hard to find honestly, so I was thinking alternatives.

 

I was thinking to use plywood instead of marble tile and put something hard between plywood and ball. I came across these Quartz discs. I think Quartz is very hard and flat. See specs at the bottom of page.

 

Technical Glass Products: Plates and Discs

 

Thoughts please. Thanks.

[YashN]

I was describing hanging/suspending the unattached parts of the cable. Nothing about balancing it on anything ???

 

Never mind that: it's not practical for my current cable in any case.

[YashN]

I was thinking to use plywood instead of marble tile and put something hard between plywood and ball.

 

Give bamboo a try as well if you can.