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Pushing back against the Pono critics


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I think it sounds very good attached to my Unison Research S6. It does required a notch or two more volume than my Oppo but the SQ is really nice. It has nice bass extension, more than the Oppo and a nice sound stage but the highs don't seem to have quite the same amount of detail. Overall the music has a natural tone to it that very pleasing and I've heard that it may even perform better when used in balanced mode.

 

Charles Hansen was quoted as saying that once you hear it in balanced mode you won't go back.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protectors +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Protection>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three BXT (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three BXT

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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How does Pono sound in a home system? Is the DAC good enough to bypass those in home systems?

 

In Michael Lavorgna's review, he used it mostly as a transport/DAC in his big rig. John Darko may also have tried it that way.

 

But I started this thread to bring attention to how the Hydrogen Audio-ish crowd, which includes mouthpieces at gizmodo and NY Post, has been pushing back on the idea that hi-rez files can improve SQ. Some of them go so far as to say that we should all be happy with high sample rate mp3s.

Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables

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In Michael Lavorgna's review, he used it mostly as a transport/DAC in his big rig. John Darko may also have tried it that way.

 

But I started this thread to bring attention to how the Hydrogen Audio-ish crowd, which includes mouthpieces at gizmodo and NY Post, has been pushing back on the idea that hi-rez files can improve SQ. Some of them go so far as to say that we should all be happy with high sample rate mp3s.

 

Can you reliably tell the difference between 320mp3 and redbook?..........bet ya couldn't. A matter of fact, tested listening groups often favor the 320 over the redbook slightly above random. Video testing has also shown similiar results with people's preference for compressed Bluray 1080p content over original resolution.........and not a blind test! The common answers are smoother textures and less grain......more appealing to the viewer but not what the director intended. Go figure.

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Let me try to sum up that forum over there (as far as I've seen it - look for the recent threads with ABX done by Amir where they even start questioning ABX as well as say the logs must be doctored!):

 

- Pose as scientific investigators

- Ask for scientific measurements, methods and papers

- When provided with the same, question everything yet again, therefore giving real science a bad name and making a mockery of themselves.

 

You have to ask yourself what their agenda is...

 

Unless there's none but just rampant stupidity.

 

But I started this thread to bring attention to how the Hydrogen Audio-ish crowd, which includes mouthpieces at gizmodo and NY Post, has been pushing back on the idea that hi-rez files can improve SQ. Some of them go so far as to say that we should all be happy with high sample rate mp3s.

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]16661[/ATTACH]

 

Yes, conveniently with this perspective shot, it looks bigger than it really is...

 

It's not a big deal, really...

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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Can you reliably tell the difference between 320mp3 and redbook?..........bet ya couldn't. A matter of fact, tested listening groups often favor the 320 over the redbook slightly above random. Video testing has also shown similiar results with people's preference for compressed Bluray 1080p content over original resolution.........and not a blind test! The common answers are smoother textures and less grain......more appealing to the viewer but not what the director intended. Go figure.

 

I don't even own any mp3s so, no, I haven't compared CDs and mp3s. But I did use the foobar ABX comparator to compare 16 and 24 bit (files downsampled from 24/192 using dbPoweramp). I made a couple of mistakes at first but locked onto the difference - I can only describe the 24 bit as a more "relaxed" presentation - and identified them correctly the next 8 consecutive times before growing bored. I was unable, however, to reliably distinguish 44 kHz from 96 or 192 kHz. As a result of that test, I don't bother to buy 24/192. If you can't tell mp3 from CD maybe you should just get all your music from iTunes/Amazon and be happy. But don't expect that your argument will have any credibility with regards to *my* preferences.

 

But why does it matter to you? Many people report that they hear/enjoy/appreciate the difference btw mp3s, 16/44, and 24/44+ files. Others don't hear these files as different. It's all good, IMO. So, why does the latter group try to invalidate the experiences of the former? Everybody has different skills, abilities, training, etc. That doesn't make anybody "right" or "wrong", just different. I've had many experiences that you haven't and vice-a-verse. And, look, we're on this forum because we like to share our experiences about enjoying music and how we do it (I could be wrong about this; many seem to be here mostly to share stories about tweaking their PCs to the nth degree). Nothing more.

Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables

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I don't even own any mp3s so, no, I haven't compared CDs and mp3s. But I did use the foobar ABX comparator to compare 16 and 24 bit (files downsampled from 24/192 using dbPoweramp). I made a couple of mistakes at first but locked onto the difference - I can only describe the 24 bit as a more "relaxed" presentation - and identified them correctly the next 8 consecutive times before growing bored. I was unable, however, to reliably distinguish 44 kHz from 96 or 192 kHz. As a result of that test, I don't bother to buy 24/192.

 

But why does it matter to you? Many people report that they hear/enjoy/appreciate the difference btw mp3s, 16/44, and 24/44+ files. Others don't hear these files as different. It's all good, IMO. So, why does the latter group try to invalidate the experiences of the former? Everybody has different skills, abilities, training, etc. That doesn't make anybody "right" or "wrong", just different. I've had many experiences that you haven't and vice-a-verse. And, look, we're on this forum because we like to share our experiences about enjoying music and how we do it (I could be wrong about this; many seem to be here mostly to share stories about tweaking their PCs to the nth degree). Nothing more.

 

I totally agree with you. I don't understand the group that tries with all there power to invalidate someone's experience... I think some people are just bored and NEED validation in their own mind and NEED others to agree with them.

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Can you reliably tell the difference between 320mp3 and redbook?..........bet ya couldn't. A matter of fact, tested listening groups often favor the 320 over the redbook slightly above random. Video testing has also shown similiar results with people's preference for compressed Bluray 1080p content over original resolution.........and not a blind test! The common answers are smoother textures and less grain......more appealing to the viewer but not what the director intended. Go figure.

 

Can on some types of music, can't on others. The fact that a majority favor mp3 says more about the kind of sound people are used to and the quality of modern recordings (sucks, so much music may actually sound better if you don't hear it fully reproduced), and little about the quality of hi-res or redbook.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protectors +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Protection>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three BXT (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three BXT

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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Can on some types of music, can't on others. The fact that a majority favor mp3 says more about the kind of sound people are used to and the quality of modern recordings (sucks, so much music may actually sound better if you don't hear it fully reproduced), and little about the quality of hi-res or redbook.

 

And your arguement is to make generalizations as to the type of music and modern recordings? if you want me to value your opinion, you gotta do better than that. Help me out here please....make a valid arguement and not a generalization. I mentioned high bit 320 Mp3 specifically as not all ( or most really) MP3 are created equal. My success in identifying was the same as yours,.....with VERY famiiar material on my own system in a relaxed environment with repeated attempts i was just able to break random with 11 tracks of varying content.

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And your arguement is to make generalizations as to the type of music and modern recordings? if you want me to value your opinion, you gotta do better than that. Help me out here please....make a valid arguement and not a generalization. I mentioned high bit 320 Mp3 specifically as not all ( or most really) MP3 are created equal. My success in identifying was the same as yours,.....with VERY famiiar material on my own system in a relaxed environment with repeated attempts i was just able to break random with 11 tracks of varying content.

 

mayhem, you are clearly a smart guy, but do you come hear only to argue? You bring some lame argument about how most people prefer mp3 - as if that has ANY relevance to an audiophile group full of experienced listeners used to good recordings and good equipment - and then get on my case about what you consider an invalid argument/generalization. Please apply your exacting standards to yourself.

 

The "majority" in lots of areas can be used to a low standard and prefer it to something high quality. I still remember being surprised by a kid at summer camp that preferred TANG to fresh orange juice. But then I got it - for him Tang was the standard breakfast drink and had the taste he expected - real orange juice tasted weird and was too intense for him.

 

Pretty much the same thing is going on today with mp3 vs well reproduced music. mp3 is the musical Tang - if you've grown up with it, you might prefer it. It doesn't make it better, more accurate, or more like the real thing. And it doesn't prove anything about the quality or lack thereof of real orange juice.

 

Then you put words in my mouth about what I said about mp3 vs Redbook. My experience isn't like yours, from your description of yours.

 

I can successfully tell them apart on some kinds of music. Generally with recordings that have acoustic instruments such as cymbals, plucked strings, percussion, and human singing voices. With that kind of material it is easier to hear the differences - not really hard and not really necessary for me to have familiar material or be in a familiar environment to successfully hear the difference.

 

This is as opposed to electronic music and material that is pretty much just a studio/computer creation with high volume compression - in that type of material the differences are harder to hear. From what I read here, a lot of people have similar experiences to mine.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protectors +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Protection>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three BXT (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three BXT

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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I still remember being surprised by a kid at summer camp that preferred TANG to fresh orange juice. But then I got it - for him Tang was the standard breakfast drink and had the taste he expected - real orange juice tasted weird and was too intense for him.

 

That is stunning - and really sad, IMO - but no sense arguing with his preference.

 

Pretty much the same thing is going on today with mp3 vs well reproduced music. mp3 is the musical Tang - if you've grown up with it, you might prefer it. It doesn't make it better, more accurate, or more like the real thing. And it doesn't prove anything about the quality or lack thereof of real orange juice.

 

Yep. That's a great anecdote for the topic of Pono!

Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables

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Pono really does not sound better to me, not at all.

 

-Paul

 

That's hard for me to fathom, but hey, they're your ears, not mine.

 

FWIW, I find very little to choose between Ayre Player by itself and iPhone 6 + Resonessence Herus. But Naked iPhone doesn't cut it.

 

Just out of curiosity, what headphones are you using?

Office: MacBook Pro - Audirvana Plus - Resonessence Concero - Cavailli Liquid Carbon - Sennheiser HD 800.

Travel/Portable: iPhone 7 or iPad Pro - AudioQuest Dragonfly Red - Audeze SINE or Noble Savant

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That is stunning - and really sad, IMO - but no sense arguing with his preference.

 

 

 

Yep. That's a great anecdote for the topic of Pono!

 

Similar experience: I was raised on instant mashed potatoes, instant "stuffing", instant mac and cheese, etc. The first time I ate "real" mashed potatoes, I just about spit it out - why was it so lumpy? why did it have bits of skin in it? etc. Same for real stuffing, real mac and cheese, etc.

 

Took me a while, but now I appreciate (and much prefer!) each of these foods cooked "from scratch". It really is what you are used to / raised on that sets your expectations, and can take some time / experience to change your perception.

John Walker - IT Executive

Headphone - SonicTransporter i9 running Roon Server > Netgear Orbi > Blue Jeans Cable Ethernet > mRendu Roon endpoint > Topping D90 > Topping A90d > Dan Clark Expanse / HiFiMan H6SE v2 / HiFiman Arya Stealth

Home Theater / Music -SonicTransporter i9 running Roon Server > Netgear Orbi > Blue Jeans Cable HDMI > Denon X3700h > Anthem Amp for front channels > Revel F208-based 5.2.4 Atmos speaker system

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Similar experience: I was raised on instant mashed potatoes, instant "stuffing", instant mac and cheese, etc. The first time I ate "real" mashed potatoes, I just about spit it out - why was it so lumpy? why did it have bits of skin in it? etc. Same for real stuffing, real mac and cheese, etc.

 

Took me a while, but now I appreciate (and much prefer!) each of these foods cooked "from scratch". It really is what you are used to / raised on that sets your expectations, and can take some time / experience to change your perception.

 

Reminds me of my nephew's family--he's a VP at a NYC hedge fund, and makes more money than God, so it's not about that, but when they have a family birthday party for one of their four kids, his wife orders everything "catered" from the local supermarket. The only thing I have ever seen her make is Kraft mac & cheese from a box. I don't know what they live on during the week, but the kids seem to really love M&M's.

 

Anyway, I have them over for Thanksgiving every year. I make the entire spread from scratch for 20+ people in my extended family. It takes me about three days to prepare all the dishes.

I remember one time, as the family is sitting down to my traditional turkey dinner with all the trimmings, mommy reaches into her handbag and pulls out an Oscar Meyer bologna sandwich on Wonder Bread for the 5-year-old to eat as his dinner. Right in front of me! And, when I later served a homemade Ghiaradelli chocolate torte for dessert, the 4-year-old took a bite, and spit it out. Nice.

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Got y'all beat by a country mile.

 

Kosher meat is not supposed to be rare. (In fact "kosher salt" refers to the larger salt crystals used in the brine soak that removes the blood from the meat before cooking. Might be one reason kosher poultry usually winds up moist if it's not terribly overcooked.) My mother was extremely conscientious about this, to the point that any steak we ever had was baked (yes, really) until it was gray on the inside. Same with burgers. I couldn't understand when young why anyone would want to go to McDonald's.

 

In college I went out to dinner with a girlfriend and her parents. Following her father's lead, I ordered prime rib, medium rare. When I tasted it, I nearly wept with joy. 21 years old and the first decent piece of beef I ever had in my life.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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and, when i later served a homemade ghiaradelli chocolate torte for dessert, the 4-year-old took a bite, and spit it out. Nice.

 

rofl! :)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Got y'all beat by a country mile.

 

Kosher meat is not supposed to be rare. (In fact "kosher salt" refers to the larger salt crystals used in the brine soak that removes the blood from the meat before cooking. Might be one reason kosher poultry usually winds up moist if it's not terribly overcooked.) My mother was extremely conscientious about this, to the point that any steak we ever had was baked (yes, really) until it was gray on the inside. Same with burgers. I couldn't understand when young why anyone would want to go to McDonald's.

 

In college I went out to dinner with a girlfriend and her parents. Following her father's lead, I ordered prime rib, medium rare. When I tasted it, I nearly wept with joy. 21 years old and the first decent piece of beef I ever had in my life.

 

Jud, did you ever see the film Big Night? The scene where the brother's are throwing the huge dinner because Louis Prima is coming to the restaurant...They had been eating for hours and a girl had her head on the table crying her eyes out. Someone asks her what's the problem. She looks up and says "I just realized my mother was a horrible cook!"

 

Edit: Not saying your mom was a bad cook, mine was not real good, but its amazing when our eyes are opened to the world....

 

The thing I remember as a kid were the sickly green canned green beans. I'm twitching just thinking about them...

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place". George Bernard Shaw.

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mayhem, you are clearly a smart guy, but do you come hear only to argue? You bring some lame argument about how most people prefer mp3 - as if that has ANY relevance to an audiophile group full of experienced listeners used to good recordings and good equipment - and then get on my case about what you consider an invalid argument/generalization. Please apply your exacting standards to yourself.

 

The "majority" in lots of areas can be used to a low standard and prefer it to something high quality. I still remember being surprised by a kid at summer camp that preferred TANG to fresh orange juice. But then I got it - for him Tang was the standard breakfast drink and had the taste he expected - real orange juice tasted weird and was too intense for him.

 

Pretty much the same thing is going on today with mp3 vs well reproduced music. mp3 is the musical Tang - if you've grown up with it, you might prefer it. It doesn't make it better, more accurate, or more like the real thing. And it doesn't prove anything about the quality or lack thereof of real orange juice.

 

Then you put words in my mouth about what I said about mp3 vs Redbook. My experience isn't like yours, from your description of yours.

 

I can successfully tell them apart on some kinds of music. Generally with recordings that have acoustic instruments such as cymbals, plucked strings, percussion, and human singing voices. With that kind of material it is easier to hear the differences - not really hard and not really necessary for me to have familiar material or be in a familiar environment to successfully hear the difference.

 

This is as opposed to electronic music and material that is pretty much just a studio/computer creation with high volume compression - in that type of material the differences are harder to hear. From what I read here, a lot of people have similar experiences to mine.

 

See......again in the very early part of your response you make generalizations that's hard to read so when can discuss,debate, argue...whatever you like to call it. But first, we need to communicate. So what constitutes the requirements for being an audiophile?......good equipment?. an experienced listener?....a good recording? Or would you rather simply apply these criteria as your personal preference? At that point, we can just let it go as your response is your subjective opinion.

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Jud, did you ever see the film Big Night? The scene where the brother's are throwing the huge dinner because Louis Prima is coming to the restaurant...They had been eating for hours and a girl had her head on the table crying her eyes out. Someone asks her what's the problem. She looks up and says "I just realized my mother was a horrible cook!"

 

Edit: Not saying your mom was a bad cook, mine was not real good, but its amazing when our eyes are opened to the world....

 

The thing I remember as a kid were the sickly green canned green beans. I'm twitching just thinking about them...

 

First of all, Big Night is one of my favorite movies of all time.

 

Second, (and my brother, sister, wife, and I can be easily brought to tears from laughing so hard about this), my mother was the world's worst cook, and second place is not close.

 

A couple of highlights:

 

- "Meat loaf" was hamburger meat pressed in a loaf pan and baked until gray on the inside. No fillers, nothing but hamburger. You needed half a bottle of ketchup on a slice to lubricate it enough to get it down. Later, she realized it was dry and hit on the perfect solution: She poured a bag of frozen mixed vegetables into the middle of each loaf. Yum.

 

- A bit later in life she began to make breaded salmon. In the microwave. She could never figure out why the damn breading wouldn't stick.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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First of all, Big Night is one of my favorite movies of all time.

 

Second, (and my brother, sister, wife, and I can be easily brought to tears from laughing so hard about this), my mother was the world's worst cook, and second place is not close.

 

A couple of highlights:

 

- "Meat loaf" was hamburger meat pressed in a loaf pan and baked until gray on the inside. No fillers, nothing but hamburger. You needed half a bottle of ketchup on a slice to lubricate it enough to get it down. Later, she realized it was dry and hit on the perfect solution: She poured a bag of frozen mixed vegetables into the middle of each loaf. Yum.

 

- A bit later in life she began to make breaded salmon. In the microwave. She could never figure out why the damn breading wouldn't stick.

 

In our moms' defense American cuisine was pretty closed off to the world until Julia Child started showing up on TV screens in the 60s.....unless of course you came from a diverse ethnic background, with all those great cooking traditions, which I did not.

 

The other chef I remember on TV as a kid was the Galloping Gourmet. I think he was on PBS also???? But beyond that there was not a whole lot out there.

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place". George Bernard Shaw.

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That's hard for me to fathom, but hey, they're your ears, not mine.

 

FWIW, I find very little to choose between Ayre Player by itself and iPhone 6 + Resonessence Herus. But Naked iPhone doesn't cut it.

 

Just out of curiosity, what headphones are you using?

 

I usually use the Grado 80's or 100's on the iPhone by itself. I also like the HiFiman 400is, but to really get those guys to sing, it helps to run a better DAC off the camera port. That would be a Wavelength Proton or iFi Nano. (Yep, that would also be cheating...)

 

All three of those headphones are plenty good enough to show up differences to me in DACs, Amps, and Playback software, so I figure they should be good enough to make a Pono shine. But the Pono doesn't really sound better to me. No real reason it should I suppose, which is why I gripe about the hype around it. I use an iPhone 5 and it is a very well built piece of equipment. Not much cheap inside that $549 device. (grin)

 

The iPhone and the Pono sound about the same, when the iPhone is streaming. When it is playing back local files, the iPhone sounds better to me. Understand, those are preferences, not recommendations, reviews, or anything else other than what I hear and like. YMMV! :)

 

I often stream music via Blutooth from my phone to the sound system in my Jeep. I can easily tell the difference between MP3 320 and Redbook in the jeep over the iPhone, though I am not sure if the Jeep or the iPhone is acting as the DAC in that situation.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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