This I doubt -

gmgraves · January 20, 2015

Nope- but I find this insistence that a user interface makes something a dedicated or embedded computer, and therefor simpler or "better" than a typical GPDC ridiculous. The music players out there are not "dedicated" to playing music, as they handle all sorts of things, like mounting and indexing files on external disks.

-Paul

So, you don't think that a dedicated appliance that allows anyone to access digital music without being computer savvy is ridiculous? So, If we are to follow your advice, we should use a PC to play our DVD/Blu-Rays instead of a dedicated player? We should use GP computers as satellite or cable TV boxes instead of dedicated TV boxes? Perhaps we should carry our laptops in our cars instead of dedicated, built-in GPS receivers? I think that you would have a hard time convincing most people of those ideas.

Or, perhaps you are just pulling our collective legs.

gmgraves · January 20, 2015

But, doubters, what would Barry know anyhow, with his puny credits? Barry Diament | Credits | AllMusic

Well, I don't read bdiament's posts, so I wouldn't know what he does.

I will tell you that I tried doing this experiment (replacing a pair of well used interconnects with an identical pair right out of the package, as I buy my RCA interconnects in "bulk") this afternoon. And my result was neither myself nor two audiophiles buddies who were visiting heard the slightest difference between the well "burned-in" and the fresh-from-the-bag pair. IOW, exactly what the electronics behind cabling would predict.

jbbikerider · January 20, 2015

I read mostly but it seems that you can't hold Mr. Diaments jock strap. Your just a old oh maybe I should stop there.

Snowmonkey · January 20, 2015

With all my inadequacies it happen often to me to witness an orgasm:)

Me too! I'm even hoping to try it with a woman someday.

Snowmonkey · January 20, 2015

Well, I don't read bdiament's posts, so I wouldn't know what he does.

Yeah, why waste time listening to someone with a viewpoint different from your own?

Allan F · January 20, 2015

Well, I don't read bdiament's posts, so I wouldn't know what he does.

No need to read any further. You've already told us all we need to know about your objectivity. I have little doubt that you would say the same thing if Einstein were alive and posted opinions that contradicted your own "knowledge of universal truths".

However, given the foregoing, your "experiment" would probably serve well as an archetypical example of expectation bias.

InfernoSTi · January 20, 2015

@ George (gmgraves2@comcast-net) and @ Barry Diament,

Can each of you in a very short way describe the room treatments you have in each of your listening rooms, as well as how quiet the listening environment is (the noise floor of the room itself), please?

Since you are each hearing very different things, I thought I might ask about the environment rather than doubt each of you validly heard what you heard as I have no reason to think either is making up your responses.

Obviously, the less room interaction and the lower the noise floor, the greater the chance that minor changes would become perceptible (and the reverse should be true, of course).

So how about it? Please describe your listening environments if you are willing...

John

Paul R · January 20, 2015

So, you don't think that a dedicated appliance that allows anyone to access digital music without being computer savvy is ridiculous? So, If we are to follow your advice, we should use a PC to play our DVD/Blu-Rays instead of a dedicated player? We should use GP computers as satellite or cable TV boxes instead of dedicated TV boxes? Perhaps we should carry our laptops in our cars instead of dedicated, built-in GPS receivers? I think that you would have a hard time convincing most people of those ideas.

Or, perhaps you are just pulling our collective legs.

No, I think it is pure silliness to go and spend $2500 on a crippled playler like a Bryston when a $499 PC sounds just as good and when used with a decent remote control app is every bit as easy to operate. It can also do more, like RIP your CDs.

Calling such a thing an "appliance" is nothing more than marketing, a vain attempt to sell the thing at what amounts to an outrageous price. Same is true of things like those $699 "Cocktail Servers," though they are not so crippled. Or the JRMC ID. And to a lesser degree, even the Aurrenders and Auralics. Marketing.

But the $499 PC- it isn't much more effort to setup that most of the "appliances" - it has better remote control, you can choose a better DAC, effectively infinite expansion, and it is more likely to support new features. If you believe hardware makes a difference, buy or build a CAPS computer, a VortexBox/Sonore, or a Mac. All of those choices include high quality hardware and software.

But tell people that a crippled POS is an "appliance" and therefore simpler and better sounding? Kool Aid.

YMMV- but surely you are not being taken in by the marketing rot of such products?

bdiament · January 20, 2015

@ George (gmgraves2@comcast-net) and @ Barry Diament,

Can each of you in a very short way describe the room treatments you have in each of your listening rooms, as well as how quiet the listening environment is (the noise floor of the room itself), please?

Since you are each hearing very different things, I thought I might ask about the environment rather than doubt each of you validly heard what you heard as I have no reason to think either is making up your responses.

Obviously, the less room interaction and the lower the noise floor, the greater the chance that minor changes would become perceptible (and the reverse should be true, of course).

So how about it? Please describe your listening environments if you are willing...

John

Hi John,

First, I want to be clear that my participation here is to share my experiences and read about the experiences of other enthusiasts. I do not seek to convince anyone and do not care whether folks agree, disagree or think I am imagining what I report, any more than I would care if they agreed, disagreed, or thought I was imagining a report of any other experience in my life I care to share.

That said, I do not have a numeric measurement of my studio/listening room's noise floor for you. I can say it is *very* quiet and is very well isolated from the outside. I can shake the walls with Zep or Mahler and from outside, you wouldn't know the system was on. (Well, if you were right outside the wall, you would probably hear a little bit but once you got several feet away, it would be silence.) The room is quiet enough to hear the subtlest tape hiss on analog recordings.

It is served by dedicated AC lines and all the gear, including all components, power supplies, speakers and subwoofers is isolated from groundborne vibrations.

Acoustics are treated with cylindrical traps in all the corners, half-points and quarter-points in order to address room modes. Other treatments ensure all early reflections are absorbed and all late reflections are diffused. (Sometimes I move the front wall half-point traps for those occasions when I'm projecting video on that wall.)

Speakers and subs (and listening position) are placed away from pressure zones, well away from room boundaries.

The system is very, very good at getting out of the way and letting me hear past it to the recording itself. This quality also makes it pretty easy to hear very small changes, whether in the system or in the recording, the latter being something I find a must for my work.

Lastly, I should add that changes in cables were obvious to me back when I had a much lesser system, in an untreated room, and the speakers were not nearly as good or well placed. And those cables were nowhere near as good as what is available today. (Heck, changing the speaker cables in my old Dodge van (!) was pretty obvious too.)

Hope this helps.

Now, how about you? Do you hear differences between cables? Have you heard a cable change from fresh-out-of-the-box to used for several days? Is your room treated?

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

Allan F · January 20, 2015

No, I think it is pure silliness to go and spend $2500 on a crippled playler like a Bryston when a $499 PC sounds just as good and when used with a decent remote control app is every bit as easy to operate. It can also do more, like RIP your CDs.

What may be 'pure silliness' for you may be an intelligent choice for someone who is not computer literate, has no desire to become so, and simply wants an easy "turnkey" solution to get into computer audio. That doesn't describe you or me, but I know people who are in that category. They have no desire to learn what is required in order to get a computer server up and running. The "turnkey" may sound better than a general purpose computer that is not optimized in any way for audio. While it may be no simpler to operate, it will be easier to set up and become operational.

Paul R · January 20, 2015

What may be 'pure silliness' for you may be an intelligent choice for someone who is not computer literate, has no desire to become so, and simply wants an easy "turnkey" solution to get into computer audio. That doesn't describe you or me, but I know people who are in that category. They have no desire to learn what is required in order to get a computer server up and running. The "turnkey" may sound better than a general purpose computer that is not optimized in any way for audio. While it may be no simpler to operate, it will be easier to set up and become operational.

Which is why I pointed to buying a Vortexbox/Sonore, or CAPS computer system. Small Green Computers for instance, puts those together and sells them. Andrew does a fine job from all I hear, which is mostly about Vortexbox computers. Simple and rather turnkey when delivered from Andrew.

Mac's also have enormous amounts of support available, you can purchase one on one help to setup your Mac just the way you want. It's about 10 mins from out of the box to playing music with iTunes.

The "computer leary" public is much more the "leary of computer scam" public I think. Saying a box like the Bryston player is an appliance not a computer is to me, nothing less than pure marketing hype.

And on the other side of the coin, paying $500 for a music playback machine and then expecting it to do your spreadsheets, taxes, and play games is just as unrealistic.

-Paul

Allan F · January 20, 2015

Which is why I pointed to buying a Vortexbox/Sonore, or CAPS computer system. Small Green Computers for instance, puts those together and sells them. Andrew does a fine job from all I hear, which is mostly about Vortexbox computers. Simple and rather turnkey when delivered from Andrew.

A CAPS is a fine solution. I use one built for me by Andrew. But, I would hardly call it a "turnkey". You have to have a basic knowledge of Windows and download, install and configure a music player. Then you have to download and install a remote application. While the foregoing may be relatively painless for many, it can be both daunting and extremely challenging for some. I can't comment on the Vortexbox/Sonore but, if it involves the same steps, it would not qualify as "turnkey" either.

Paul R · January 20, 2015

A CAPS is a fine solution. I use one built for me by Andrew. But, I would hardly call it a "turnkey". You have to have a basic knowledge of Windows and download, install and configure a music player. Then you have to download and install a remote application. While the foregoing may be relatively painless for many, it can be both daunting and extremely challenging for others.

I understood that the CAPS from Andrew came fully loaded, just add your music files? JRemote of course, requires no extra software on the server machine, and can do things like reboot the server as well.

Here at least, I look at the server computer via a remote desktop once a month or so, whether it needs it or not. But all other interaction with the machine, save for ripping the disks, is taken care of by JRemote on our iPhones and iPads.

It's interesting to know that the machines from Andrew still require a bit of work to get playable. Worth it, I would think.

-Paul

Allan F · January 20, 2015

I understood that the CAPS from Andrew came fully loaded, just add your music files?

Andrew's CAPS PCs have all the required hardware (no mouse or monitor, of course), but they come barebone with only Windows Pro installed. As a CAPS, by design, does not include a drive, more work is required in order to set things up to rip CDs. But, I agree that his CAPS builds are definitely worth it for those prepared to set them up.

mayhem13 · January 20, 2015

This place is just getting downright silly as of late.

If you or anyone here's a DRASTIC change between cables analog or digital, one of samples is defective or the wrong application....pure and simple.

With Computer Audio becoming more and more relevent with the general public, it becomes a matter of responsibilty in posting and moderation if this fora is to grow, or even sustain itself at this point.

Paul R · January 20, 2015

This place is just getting downright silly as of late.

If you or anyone here's a DRASTIC change between cables analog or digital, one of samples is defective or the wrong application....pure and simple.

With Computer Audio becoming more and more relevent with the general public, it becomes a matter of responsibilty in posting and moderation if this fora is to grow, or even sustain itself at this point.

Well, at least *this* is a post I can really doubt.

Seriously, you have never heard a difference from cables?

-Paul

alfe · January 20, 2015

Well, at least *this* is a post I can really doubt.

Seriously, you have never heard a difference from cables?

-Paul

I can hear the difference between cables but burn in ... can't hear it, may be I need a noisy fan of a projector in my listening space to hear that:)

mayhem13 · January 20, 2015

Unless they're broken or wrong application?,......No i haven't.....at least not anything discernable in the change that i could positively attribute to the cable change or even repeat the perceived change.

And for someone to state that they can readily identify a new cable vs one that's been burned in is just plain wrong. They might perceive a difference based on a strong set of beliefs and this isn't to say that the intention is to mislead or misenterpret the experience so no personal attack. The problem lies in that regardless of this individuals CLEAR DISCLAIMER as to the limits of

HIS EXPERIENCE, many here share these experiences and observations as declarations instead of what they are. Again, a lack of responsibility.

jabbr · January 20, 2015

Well, at least *this* is a post I can really doubt.

Seriously, you have never heard a difference from cables?

-Paul

RCA -- yes

Ethernet - no

USB - no

(using reasonably well made from reliable sources)

Allan F · January 20, 2015

The change that i could positively attribute to the cable change or even repeat the perceived change.

And for someone to state that they can readily identify a new cable vs one that's been burned in is just plain wrong. They might perceive a difference based on a strong set of beliefs and this isn't to say that the intention is to mislead or misenterpret the experience so no personal attack. The problem lies in that regardless of this individuals CLEAR DISCLAIMER as to the limits of

HIS EXPERIENCE, many here share these experiences and observations as declarations instead of what they are. Again, a lack of responsibility.

Excuse me, but you are doing exactly what you decry by using the phrase "is just plain wrong". That is as clear a declaration as one can make. Who are you to rule on the reality of the experiences of those who hear differences after cable burn in? By your standards, that statement is as irresponsible as the claims you deny.

Your wording of the position of others is, unintentionally, subject to possible misinterpretation. What is said is that a difference in sound has been experienced after a new cable has been burned in. No one is saying that they can tell the difference between a new cable and a burned in cable in isolation. I am not suggesting that a difference in sound will be audible after burn in for all cables. However, I can say without reservation that I have heard a most significant and clearly obvious difference in sound with certain cables after burn in. In one particular instance, I would describe the difference in sound to be at least as great as that between a poor inexpensive first generation CD player and the sound of one of today's better DACs.

wgscott · January 20, 2015

Well, the existence of permanent magnets cannot be explained without quantum theory, so all those transducers with magnets in them . . . the fact that your speakers work at all is just such a phenomenon.

Neither can semi-conductors, Captain Miss-the-Point.

Paul R · January 20, 2015

Unless they're broken or wrong application?,......No i haven't.....at least not anything discernable in the change that i could positively attribute to the cable change or even repeat the perceived change.

And for someone to state that they can readily identify a new cable vs one that's been burned in is just plain wrong. They might perceive a difference based on a strong set of beliefs and this isn't to say that the intention is to mislead or misenterpret the experience so no personal attack. The problem lies in that regardless of this individuals CLEAR DISCLAIMER as to the limits of

HIS EXPERIENCE, many here share these experiences and observations as declarations instead of what they are. Again, a lack of responsibility.

Or, you are missing something. I can discern between and identical set of cables I have been using, and a new set "right out of the box." If I can do it, so can most half deaf monkeys swinging in the trees. (shrug)

It doesn't seem to be a miracle or even very hard to do thing. That you can not is a mystery to me, because I would have laid down money you out of all people would be able to hear a difference.

Paul R · January 20, 2015

RCA -- yes
Ethernet - no

USB - no

(using reasonably well made from reliable sources)

For me that would be:

RCA - 50/50 and rather uncertain

Ethernet - Never

USB - Annoyingly yes, at least between silver vs silver coated vs copper of any flavor.

Speaker Cables - Yes- especially between what appears to be differing geometries more than material.

-Paul

gmgraves · January 20, 2015

I read mostly but it seems that you can't hold Mr. Diaments jock strap. Your just a old oh maybe I should stop there.

Did I say anything against Mr. Diaments? I don't think I did.

alfe · January 20, 2015

No insult please:)

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

This I doubt -

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