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I must say, the declarations of Universal Truth (add reverb to those words) from some quarters bring to mind something the manager of a major NYC recording studio once said to me. I don't recall what started him on the subject but he quite adamantly declared as truth the "fact" that women do not experience orgasm. His supported his assertion by proudly recounting that over the years, he'd been with dozens(!) of women and on not one single occasion did he ever witness one of them having an orgasm.

 

Literally apropos, Barry! Somehow, it never occurs to these people that the reason their experiences differ from those of others may be due to their own inadequacies. :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Hi Jud,

 

I would submit that such a test is useful *if* the differences are of sufficient magnitude to overcome the different positions of the speakers as well as any deviations in every one of the components in a given channel. What it won't reveal are things that require stereo such as soundstage width and depth, etc.

 

***

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

 

The bold sentence is exactly *why* this experience is revelatory. To the extent the sounds of the two cables differ, it will screw up image, soundstage, and anything else that depends on a good match between channels. I experienced this myself with new capacitors on one channel and broken in caps on the other when building my DAC.

 

Nothing like this experience is possible when switching back and forth between inputs, no matter how rapidly. That's why I distinguished it from the test you described, alfe.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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The bold sentence is exactly *why* this experience is revelatory. To the extent the sounds of the two cables differ, it will screw up image, soundstage, and anything else that depends on a good match between channels. I experienced this myself with new capacitors on one channel and broken in caps on the other when building my DAC.

 

Nothing like this experience is possible when switching back and forth between inputs, no matter how rapidly. That's why I distinguished it from the test you described, alfe.

 

Hi Jud,

 

Understood and if it works for you, I'd be the last to argue.

 

It will indeed reveal a change if there is a difference but for the precise nature of the change--in other words, how it will effect what you hear when you are just sitting back and listening to music--I prefer it in stereo myself.

 

Again, if you find it useful in your listening, I'm all for it.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

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Hi Jud,

 

Understood and if it works for you, I'd be the last to argue.

 

It will indeed reveal a change if there is a difference but for the precise nature of the change--in other words, how it will effect what you hear when you are just sitting back and listening to music--I prefer it in stereo myself.

 

Again, if you find it useful in your listening, I'm all for it.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

 

Hi Barry. Just to briefly further explain: You're absolutely right, details of the difference that depend on the best stereo sound experience will be nonexistent. Why I suggest this in this specific instance is because the question is not about some detail of the experience, but about whether any difference exists *at all* between a new and broken in cable. If you experience less than the usual good sound you'd get with two matched cables, QED - no further detail necessary. (In my blog about building my DAC, I used an image of the Batman villain Two-Face as a visual analogy of this less than pleasant aural experience.)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Hi Barry. Just to briefly further explain: You're absolutely right, details of the difference that depend on the best stereo sound experience will be nonexistent. Why I suggest this in this specific instance is because the question is not about some detail of the experience, but about whether any difference exists *at all* between a new and broken in cable. If you experience less than the usual good sound you'd get with two matched cables, QED - no further detail necessary. (In my blog about building my DAC, I used an image of the Batman villain Two-Face as a visual analogy of this less than pleasant aural experience.)

 

Hi Jud,

 

Understood again.

I've always liked to keep an unused but otherwise identical pair of cables on hand, just to resample the fresh-out-of-the-box sound. However, in my experience at least, and on my system, it seems pretty easy to hear.

 

I would describe it as being a lot like projecting a slide on the wall, that is very colorful but out of focus, then watching it get progressively sharper over the course of several days, until at last, it is crisp and fine detail that was formerly invisible and then visible but indistinct becomes plain.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

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I dunno. It sounds like you're getting into discussions regarding how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

That is, you wrote (to which I responded earlier): "human beings cannot remember that level of audio detail (which is to say ANY aural detail) for more than a few minutes." [bold emphasis mine]

 

But now you're writing that "we recognize (and can remember) what sounds good to us."

 

You write that's remembering impressions, not details. Specifically, you wrote that I am "conflating sonic impressions with minute sonic detail as remembered over time. Impressions we can remember, detail we can't."

 

But one man's detail is another man's impression -- and vice versa.

 

Or as the song goes: You say toma-to, and I say tomah-to.

 

Dave, who says let's call the whole thing off

 

However you want to spin it. I'm just the messenger. I did not participate in any of the Bell Labs (or subsequent) studies on human aural memory in any way. I have merely read about them, and noticed -in a far as as I am able- that they seem to be correct.

George

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Regardless- whatever way you want to boil it down to, there will be computers serving up the music, and computers playing back the music. This silly insistence on saying an "appliance" is not a computer, or iPads and iPhones are not computers is just that - silly. Right up there in the same league as saying a binary 1 is anything but a binary 1.

 

I'm certainly not saying that a music server appliance is not a computer, it most assuredly IS a computer, but it's it's not a general purpose PC. Its the general purpose PC that I (and I suspect the OP) were referring to. Couldn't you ascertain that from the OP's context? I certainly had no trouble understanding what he was referring to, Paul.

George

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I'm certainly not saying that a music server appliance is not a computer, it most assuredly IS a computer, but it's it's not a general purpose PC. Its the general purpose PC that I (and I suspect the OP) were referring to. Couldn't you ascertain that from the OP's context? I certainly had no trouble understanding what he was referring to, Paul.

 

Well George, since every single music server on the market appears to be a GPDC, I am quite surprised you are having trouble identifiying the difference. It's pure marketing, nothing to do with the undying computer. Most of them are just running a variant of Linux, and you don't get more general purpose than that.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Carrying your argument to its logical conclusion, it is impossible to tell the difference in sound between any two pieces of equipment after 100 hours. So you might as well buy the cheapest gear on the market because audio memory will not allow you to hear the improvement afforded by better equipment. Of course, this is complete and utter nonsense! Ergo, "Reductio ad absurdum".

 

"Reductio ad absurdum"! You can say that again, Paul! The problem with sonically evaluating "burn-in" is simply that one cannot easily go back to the cable's pristine state and directly compare that sound with the sound of the "burned-in" cable. The only way to do that would be to buy two pairs of the cable and keep one in it's package until the other has the 100 hours or so of burn-in under its belt. While that's certainly possible, I've never seen anyone say that they had done that, and I'm not surprised. Most of these cables aren't cheap. Therefore, I assume that people who believe in "cable burn-in" are simply relying on their memory of their impressions about how their new cable sounded out of the box. If they had actually done some test to substantiate that the cable had changed over time, I'm sure that they would have noted it in their anecdotal evidence. Don't you think so?

 

I hope you don't take this as an insult or a belittling of your belief system, but I frankly couldn't give a rat's ass whether you believe me or not. You are as open minded on this subject as you are in your appreciation of different genres of music. Your loss, not mine!:)

 

Of course I don't take it as an insult and you can't belittle my belief system, I don't really have one. As for being closed minded, there are two ways to look at that. 1) The world is a complicated place. We all have a lot to think about. Ergo, there are certain subjects that, I'm sure we all feel would be a waste of our time to expend any energy on being "open-minded" about. Many times these are subjects that we have looked at, studied, even, perhaps, and have come to the conclusion that they are a waste of time because they are not logical. Some of modern humanity's more popular subjects that fall into this category are: ghosts, monsters, certain ancient religions, The Bermuda Triangle, visitation by space aliens, etc. They may be fun to read about, or watch movies and TV shows made about, but not to be taken seriously. OTOH, there are people out there who do believe deeply and passionately about these subjects. To them, those of us who have dismissed these subjects as being nonsense, are considered closed-minded.

 

2) The matter of personal taste. I've a friend who hates strawberries. I remember casually mentioning one time when strawberry shortcake was placed before us and he rejected it: "You don't know what you're missing!" it was an honest, but thoughtless remark, and he brought me up short on it. "How can I (or anyone) miss what I don't like? Do you miss having to eat your moms overcooked broccoli?"

Well, no, of course I didn't. I hated the way my mom cooked broccoli. Then I understood. Telling people that they don't know what they are missing because they don't like what you like, is a ridiculous procedure. That's their TASTE, it has nothing to do with being closed-minded. Being closed minded would be refusing to try something because you are afraid that you won't like it. I don't like limburger cheese, but I have, at least, tried it. Likewise, I've actually heard all the genres of music that I don't like. I've heard most all rock bands at one time or another and I don't like them. I've heard C&W and I don't like it. I've heard those modern breathless female singers and I can't stand any of them, I've heard reggae and I don't like it, etc,, etc., etc. I'm not closed minded about my dislikes because I have actually experienced those things. So be careful what you characterize as being the result of closed mindedness. I'm sure that there are things; foods, musical genres, etc., that you don't like, but I'm sure you wouldn't consider yourself closed-minded because you don't like them. :)

George

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Well George, since every single music server on the market appears to be a GPDC, I am quite surprised you are having trouble identifiying the difference. It's pure marketing, nothing to do with the undying computer. Most of them are just running a variant of Linux, and you don't get more general purpose than that.

 

 

Paul you are not a thick or a stupid man. Just the opposite, in fact (in my experience). Surely you are just pulling my chain? Certainly you know what both the OP and I were talking about. It doesn't matter that Linux can be a GP system. When it is packaged with a single purpose interface is ceases to be a GP computer. I understand that some automobiles run Windows or Linux to operate many of their systems, but I doubt seriously if you can do your taxes on your BMW!

 

But I don't really need to explain any of that to you, do I? :)

George

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Paul you are not a thick or a stupid man. Just the opposite, in fact (in my experience). Surely you are just pulling my chain? Certainly you know what both the OP and I were talking about. It doesn't matter that Linux can be a GP system. When it is packaged with a single purpose interface is ceases to be a GP computer. I understand that some automobiles run Windows or Linux to operate many of their systems, but I doubt seriously if you can do your taxes on your BMW!

 

But I don't really need to explain any of that to you, do I? :)

 

Nope- but I find this insistence that a user interface makes something a dedicated or embedded computer, and therefor simpler or "better" than a typical GPDC ridiculous. The music players out there are not "dedicated" to playing music, as they handle all sorts of things, like mounting and indexing files on external disks.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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As to no one actually having a second set of the same cables on hand -- or they would have mentioned it -- I would refer anyone who is interested to several dozen of my posts on the subject, in this and other fora. Start with post #105 further up this page.

And note that I would not call it necessary as the changes can be quite far from subtle, but useful nonetheless if one might doubt such significant changes can and do indeed occur.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

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As to no one actually having a second set of the same cables on hand -- or they would have mentioned it -- I would refer anyone who is interested to several dozen of my posts on the subject, in this and other fora. Start with post #105 further up this page.

And note that I would not call it necessary as the changes can be quite far from subtle, but useful nonetheless if one might doubt such significant changes can and do indeed occur.

 

But, doubters, what would Barry know anyhow, with his puny credits? Barry Diament | Credits | AllMusic :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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But, doubters, what would Barry know anyhow, with his puny credits? Barry Diament | Credits | AllMusic :)

 

All of those amazing credits . . . negated by Ted Nugent. LOL

Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables

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Huh?

 

Maybe this review about it being Nugent's most horrid release ever.

 

 

Little Miss Dangerous - Ted Nugent | Songs, Reviews, Credits, Awards | AllMusic

 

You can get a taste of it here:

 

Was a really good Miami Vice episode however.

 

http://www.imdb.com/video/hulu/vi3355050009?ref_=tt_pv_vi_aiv_1

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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