This I believe -

[DigiPete]

The current audio consumers and companies are too stuck in the mud to make any real progress.

 

Convenient, cost efficient & predictable, ultimate fidelity 3D sound will be the expectation by the the young, cloud informed & pampered generations.

[InfernoSTi]

Strange post John. Trithio can speak for himself of course. But I do believe power is one of those measurements. I doubt he intended the idea that any 5 watt amp will sound the same as a 200 watt amp on a load that needs the extra power.

 

I accept that is your opinion. But if by "measurement" one means IDENTICAL amps that cost different amounts will sound the same, then there you have it, that is simply a truism.

 

No two amps measure exactly the same in every respect so there must be a line drawn as to what is measured. Heck, even two amps that are identical except for weight could sound different. One could measure the number of parts and if they were not the same, would that count as the same or different? At some point every amp is different so where do you stop?

 

I took the "measurements" to mean specs such as THD and I further took the emphasis to be on topography and cost and it seems to me there is a lot more that goes into amps than that. Even if you exclude my comments on power, two amps with different power supplies are going to sound different even with all the other parts the same. Go on from there to add whatever is not excluded by "measurable" elements.

 

So where do you draw the line? I doubt it some trick comment that really means two identical amps in every way measurable except for cost? So what are the "measurements" that don't matter?

 

John

[Allan F]

Especially since I do consider that to be basic common knowledge.

 

You will be probably find your time on this Forum to be far more enjoyable if you don't equate opinion with knowledge or fact. Your opinions regarding the various items that you believe to sound the same are just that, opinions. They are hardly "common knowledge" and, as others have pointed out, are the source of considerable controversy. FWIW, your opinions are contrary to the experience of a number of members. OTOH, there is also a group of members who share your view.

[esldude]

I accept that is your opinion. But if by "measurement" one means IDENTICAL amps that cost different amounts will sound the same, then there you have it, that is simply a truism.

 

No two amps measure exactly the same in every respect so there must be a line drawn as to what is measured. Heck, even two amps that are identical except for weight could sound different. One could measure the number of parts and if they were not the same, would that count as the same or different? At some point every amp is different so where do you stop?

 

I took the "measurements" to mean specs such as THD and I further took the emphasis to be on topography and cost and it seems to me there is a lot more that goes into amps than that. Even if you exclude my comments on power, two amps with different power supplies are going to sound different even with all the other parts the same. Go on from there to add whatever is not excluded by "measurable" elements.

 

So where do you draw the line? I doubt it some trick comment that really means two identical amps in every way measurable except for cost? So what are the "measurements" that don't matter?

 

John

 

Well I will be guessing what the other poster meant. But we do that reading any post don't we.

 

I am pretty sure power wasn't a measure to be ignored. I am guessing at least all your usual THD, IMD, power, noise and bandwidth specs at a minimum were his intentions. I am also guessing he meant played within their performance envelope. Not driven into overload where the underlying PS and other factors would alter the sound in to how quickly and in what manner the amp recovers from overload. A $5k amp might recover from overload more gracefully and quickly than a $500 amp. If you can use it without overloading, and that is the only difference (hypotheticals I am talking here, not saying I believe it myself) then your extra $4500 isn't getting you much if the supposition of the other poster is true.

 

Now for myself I might believe that too, if the measurements were done with the speaker attached, and if the measurements are all good enough not to be audibly different. The other poster didn't attach any of this information nor do I think he intended to do so.

 

So just guessing, all measurements done over 20-20khz, if the frequency response is flat, if the distortion is the same and below .1% for THD and IMD, if the SNR is the same and if the power output was the same they will sound the same in trithio's opinion.

 

I thought your idea of immediately comparing 5 watts vs 200 watts to make a point somewhat absurd. To make the point you hinted at such as how good a power supply is backing it up and that makes amps that measures identically on a test bench sound different once a reactive speaker is connected to be a valid thing to bring up. But not a 40 to 1 difference in power.

[audiventory]

For example if a speaker has one of those awful metallic sounding tweeters it is off for me. No room treatments for that.

 

Room can't improve sound. Bad acoustical features of room kill sound only

 

Except give more volume due surface's reflections, some light reverberation. We can play with it for adjusting sound.

 

For "monitor" listening need anechoic room. But it has "dry" sound of recording - all that want bring sound producer.

[trithio]

I respect your opinion but have a couple of examples where they might not sound the same.

 

Example 1 is if one Class A SS amp is a 5 watt amp and the other Class A SS amp is a 200 watt amp. They each might sound different and the cost is associated with the extra power and what that brings yet are both the same typology.

 

Example 2 is one Class A SS amp that switches to A/B at 5 watts and has a maximum of 100 watts and the other Class A SS amp that switches to A/B at 60 watts and has a maximum of 100 watts. They might sound different and again the cost is due to how long they stay in A vs. A/B yet they are the same typology.

 

Example 3 is one Class A SS amp uses a crude power supply with minimal filtering and little total capacitance and the other Class A SS amp uses a sophisticated power supply with state of the art filtering and a large total capacitance. They might sound different and the extra cost is due to the better power supply yet they are the same typology.

 

Example 4 is two Class A SS amps, one 5 watts and the other 200 watts, that sound the same with high efficiency, easy load speakers (say 95 dB/8 ohm speakers) yet they sound different with low efficiency, hard load speakers (say 86 dB/2 ohm speakers) yet they are the same typology.

 

I suspect these factors (total watts, when Class A switches to Class A/B, power supply, and speaker interaction with the amp) are all added together is some way that makes a significant difference. I wouldn't want to use a First Watt F2 amp when I needed a Pass Labs XA-160.5 amp, even if they are both Class A amps by the same designer.

 

I believe that there is a lot more to amp design than simply the selection of typology.

 

John

 

Doubt that any of your examples fits my statement, they fail either the 'same topology' or the 'measure the same' condition. Or both.

The two amps may of course be very different for example one can deliver 1000W and the other just 100W. But if they measure the same when delivering 50W into a pair of 8ohm spearkers they will sound the same.

 

 

 

For esldude

Thanks for jumping in and trying to clarify. Looks like my 'belief' was not that unclear or badly formulated.

[trithio]

You will be probably find your time on this Forum to be far more enjoyable if you don't equate opinion with knowledge or fact. Your opinions regarding the various items that you believe to sound the same are just that, opinions. They are hardly "common knowledge" and, as others have pointed out, are the source of considerable controversy. FWIW, your opinions are contrary to the experience of a number of members. OTOH, there is also a group of members who share your view.

 

Of course 'common knowledge' in a church is not the same as in a physics lab.

As mentioned, I come from an IT background and I very rarely met anyone who doesnt share any of those 'beliefs'. That makes them common knowledge.

I also meant common as in general population, not CA only. If you dont believe I'm right just walk to the next joe on the street and try to sell him a $700 cable which suposedly makes his HPs sound 'better'. You may discover that 99% of 'joes' never actually thought about 'cable sound'. And be careful, you may even get punched.

[beanbag]

Of course 'common knowledge' in a church is not the same as in a physics lab.

As mentioned, I come from an IT background and I very rarely met anyone who doesnt share any of those 'beliefs'. That makes them common knowledge.

I also meant common as in general population, not CA only. If you dont believe I'm right just walk to the next joe on the street and try to sell him a $700 cable which suposedly makes his HPs sound 'better'. You may discover that 99% of 'joes' never actually thought about 'cable sound'. And be careful, you may even get punched.

 

He probably won't ever get punched, but more likely the guy will bust out laughing and little bits of spit might fly out and land on him.

[Jud]

IOW, butt out. First forum I've ever been on where people's public posts are NOT necessarily public or for general comment.

 

Not in the least. Your comment was very informative - I learned some things I hadn't known before. But I wanted to make sure that trithio knew I was still curious about the dimensions of what he was saying: Very similar circuitry and specs sound very similar or the same; or an entire general class of circuits sound very similar as long as they have similar specs, which is a somewhat larger claim.

[Jud]

Well I will be guessing what the other poster meant. But we do that reading any post don't we.

 

I am pretty sure power wasn't a measure to be ignored. I am guessing at least all your usual THD, IMD, power, noise and bandwidth specs at a minimum were his intentions. I am also guessing he meant played within their performance envelope. Not driven into overload where the underlying PS and other factors would alter the sound in to how quickly and in what manner the amp recovers from overload.

 

So just guessing, all measurements done over 20-20khz, if the frequency response is flat, if the distortion is the same and below .1% for THD and IMD, if the SNR is the same and if the power output was the same they will sound the same in trithio's opinion.

 

 

*In the spirit of the thread* (by which I mean curiosity about what others think and not as fodder for argumentation), I'd like to know, if you, Dennis, and you, trithio (and/or anyone else who feels like replying) are thinking of particular measurements in this context. Any of the less common ones not named by Dennis above, such as slew rate, response at higher frequencies than 20kHz, etc.? Or is this more of a general category, essentially "whatever the common measurements are that are generally thought to be significant"?

 

I don't know what the answer is myself, having never made a "blind" survey of amps of the same class with similar measurements. I can say (sorry, trithio, an audio anecdote - but I tell it for purposes of showing my bias) that when I was in the process of putting together my DAC and tried out different brands of caps with identical specs on the left and right channels, what came out of the left speaker sounded very different to me than what came out of the right speaker, even with the mono recordings I was using to test. So this admittedly subjective experience biases me to think that different components with identical specifications/typical measurements might sound different, and thus that two amps with the same typical measurements but with different componentry might well sound different. But as I say, I have no way of knowing whether my bias might be true.

[beanbag]

Two amps that measure the same will sound the same, as shown by Bob Carver.

 

The Carver Challenge | Stereophile.com

[PeterSt]

*In the spirit of the thread* (by which I mean curiosity about what others think and not as fodder for argumentation), I'd like to know, if you, Dennis, and you, trithio (and/or anyone else who feels like replying) are thinking of particular measurements in this context. Any of the less common ones not named by Dennis above, such as slew rate, response at higher frequencies than 20kHz, etc.? Or is this more of a general category, essentially "whatever the common measurements are that are generally thought to be significant"?

 

Everything which measures the same will sound the same.

It's only that not all can be measured in the first place, hardly anything I'd say. So you may derive some THD figure from a 1KHz tone, but this doesn't tell all of 1300Hz and everything in between and beyond. IMD ? nice to use 2 frequencies, but what about music (and now count 1000s). HF Influence beyond the audio band ?

 

But you could start with looking at noise and find no two power amps to show the same noise. And if in-band all looks the same, then look beyond that;

Looks different ? then it will sound different.

So actually it is not so difficult to find/measure differences if you start with the noise. And I don't specifically mean the general level of it, but how it spreads (and peaks).

 

Peter

[bdiament]

This I believe - We do not listen to the numeric representations used on specification sheets (in my opinion, humans cannot hear numbers). They are abstract constructs and as such, the assignment of their correlation with the sound of a given device is a subjective call.

 

For example, a frequency response of 20-20k +/- 1 dB will sound different in different devices, depending on where in the band the pluses and minuses fall and how wide they are. Some will be very hard to hear, if at all audible. Others will be plain as day - at least to some listeners.

 

A total harmonic distortion measurement of a fraction of 1% will sound different in different devices, depending on which harmonic(s) are involved. Some might be very hard to hear, if at all audible. Others will be plain as day - at least to some listeners.

 

These are only two basic examples. In my view, the measurement might be objective but its application to listening to music is purely subjective. The only way to know how it truly sounds (as opposed to how it truly measures) is to listen.

 

"Was it good for you too?"

"Wait a minute. Let me check my EKG and I'll let you know." ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

 

P.S. I'm still looking for the measurement that indicates apparent soundstage width, toward the back of the stage. Different components seem to have varying soundstage width as one listens further back into the stage (on those recordings containing such information).

 

I'd also like to see a measurement indicating microdynamic capability - for example, how dynamic a piano can sound within the context of an ensemble where the piano is not the loudest item, say a comping piano during a drum solo or in a big band. We've seen measurements of the macrodynamics - the outer part of the envelope - but not yet of the smaller dynamics occurring within that.

[trithio]

He probably won't ever get punched, but more likely the guy will bust out laughing and little bits of spit might fly out and land on him.

 

Laughs are of course a better bet than punches . But I think that most people will walk away pretty fast and think that they met another lunatic.

[trithio]

*In the spirit of the thread* (by which I mean curiosity about what others think and not as fodder for argumentation), I'd like to know, if you, Dennis, and you, trithio (and/or anyone else who feels like replying) are thinking of particular measurements in this context. Any of the less common ones not named by Dennis above, such as slew rate, response at higher frequencies than 20kHz, etc.? Or is this more of a general category, essentially "whatever the common measurements are that are generally thought to be significant"?

 

I don't know what the answer is myself, having never made a "blind" survey of amps of the same class with similar measurements. I can say (sorry, trithio, an audio anecdote - but I tell it for purposes of showing my bias) that when I was in the process of putting together my DAC and tried out different brands of caps with identical specs on the left and right channels, what came out of the left speaker sounded very different to me than what came out of the right speaker, even with the mono recordings I was using to test. So this admittedly subjective experience biases me to think that different components with identical specifications/typical measurements might sound different, and thus that two amps with the same typical measurements but with different componentry might well sound different. But as I say, I have no way of knowing whether my bias might be true.

 

Subjective experience is of course fine as long as it is presented as such. And please don't make me sound like some sort of objective scarecrow, some people already hate me for some reason and I only posted a few things.

I meant measurements quite generally: THD, SNR, frequency response and so on. A good example would be a stereophile measurements page for an amplifier.

[InfernoSTi]

It sounds like the two amps must be identical in order to sound the same, a truism.

 

Since every possible difference in measurement is included, such as the amount of 2nd order harmonics vs higher level harmonics in the THD figure, the amp's noise floor, the power supply ripple, etc etc etc, why not everything that is measurable? If not everything, what don't you care about? What doesn't matter?

 

How about weight and design of the case, especially with Class A? Why isn't the heat sink, screening of power supply, and the resistance to vibration important? Take the same amp and put one in a flimsy case with an tiny heat sink, the power supply unscreened right next to the outputs, and the whole thing made from thin sheet metal and put the other in a robust case with a massive heat sink, the power supply in a separate case, and the whole thing made from a low resonance, thick alloy. Which one will sound better with identical parts and design everywhere else? But once again, that is all measurable.

 

Do people really believe that the amount of power makes the amp better? What if the lower powered amp sounded better? Could that ever happen? That would take away the idea that the difference was due to greater power but other factors. What are those other factors? Perhaps they are the level of bias they operate at that makes the lower powered amp sound better (but wait, that is a measurable difference...the truism always pops up...they must be identical to sound identical).

 

So identical amps will sound identical regardless of cost. A silly truism. Make changes and they will have an effect on the sound of the amp.

 

John

[InfernoSTi]

Subjective experience is of course fine as long as it is presented as such. And please don't make me sound like some sort of objective scarecrow, some people already hate me for some reason and I only posted a few things.

I meant measurements quite generally: THD, SNR, frequency response and so on. A good example would be a stereophile measurements page for an amplifier.

 

Question: does the layout of the electronics affect the sound in a perceptible manner in your experience? If I lay out two identical amps, one where it is all very messy, long runs of signal parallel with long runs of AC power, etc etc etc and I lay the other one out very carefully with strict rules I follow such as short signal runs, separation of AC from signals, perpendicular crossing of the two if unavoidable, twisted signal wires, etc etc etc, do you think they will sound the same or different? Remember, everything but the chassis layout is identical.

 

John

[beanbag]

Question: does the layout of the electronics affect the sound in a perceptible manner in your experience? If I lay out two identical amps, one where it is all very messy, long runs of signal parallel with long runs of AC power, etc etc etc and I lay the other one out very carefully with strict rules I follow such as short signal runs, separation of AC from signals, perpendicular crossing of the two if unavoidable, twisted signal wires, etc etc etc, do you think they will sound the same or different? Remember, everything but the chassis layout is identical.

 

John

 

One of them will have a worse channel crosstalk spec.

[sdolezalek]

Measurements (whether for amplifiers or other components) are often just a marketing tool and are a function of what we have the tools to characterize. Are the measurements manufacturers report those that really matter most to what we hear or simply the numbers that are easiest to obtain? There are certainly things that we can and do measure that rarely show up on equiopment spec sheets. How many things can the human ear/mind perceive for which we have no reported measurements (see Barry's post above)?

 

I also believe that just as our tastes in what type of music we like (Rock, Jazz, Classicval, etc.) differ, so do our tastes in what we want a system to sound like. The difference is that while we don't try to convince each other that liking Jazz is "wrong" we often do try to convince each other that liking a certain sound characteristic is either wrong or unfounded.

[Bear]

I believe that a low jitter front end in a system with an overall high dynamic range coupled to low distortion speakers will result in a system you can live with for a long time. In my experience if you focus on these three variables the rest will follow.

[Paul R]

Non-sequitur much?

 

No, I rather insensitively used an image that is considered insulting by some folks. I thought it quite humorous and did not think about how insulting it could be. The point of which is simple- I did not think.

[Paul R]

Sorry for missing another one. Yes I meant class as in a, b, d and so on. And of course tube and solidstate are not the same 'class'.

Not sure how I could have said that better but it is hopefully clear what I meant. For example a $500 class A ss amp and a $5000 class A ss amp will sound the same if they measure the same.

 

 

Ahh- adding in "if they measure the same" I do agree with you. The caveat is that two amps must be virtually identical to measure the same.

 

Two 100wpc Class A amps from different manufacturers are unlikely to measure exactly the same though, and for that reason can sound a bit different. To me this is a case where measurements matter as much as listening.

[Paul R]

They ignore science and knowledge when they argue sound and systems.

Worse: they act as if sound and systems follow unexplainable dogmas of an ancient religion.

 

 

LOL! I met a gentleman the other day with a system similar to yours - including some gorgeous sounding Genelacs. I do believe his opinion was very much in line with yours too. Hard to argue with him too - his system sounded absolutely wonderful.

 

Not enough WAF to get em into my home, but they did sound sweet...

[Paul R]

Laughs are of course a better bet than punches . But I think that most people will walk away pretty fast and think that they met another lunatic.

 

Perhaps, but what kind of fool trys to sell audiophile equipment to non-audiophiles?

 

Or to put it another way, a person convinced he wants to buy a $700 cable is anything but a fool - he has already listened and convinced himself he likes the difference. Nobody hss to sell him on the idea. It's his money, and his choice in the hobby.

 

You might disagree with him, but then, I spent over a grand on a light for a fish tank. Some people would balk at spending $100 on a light for a fish tank. I know better and bought something that I (and the animals involed) am happy with. The folks who laugh at that are merely ignorant of my reasons.

 

Same thing with the 'scopes I own. Sure, you can see a lot with a $35 pair of binoculars. You can't see what I can see, and will forever remain ignorant of what I see too- unless I or someone else similary equipped shows you.

 

The same is more or less true in the audio hobby. To some level or another cables make a difference in sound. (shrug) Okay to disagree about the level, but not to make fun of someone who chooses differently. And remember please, it is a hobby.

[Paul R]

Measurements (whether for amplifiers or other components) are often just a marketing tool and are a function of what we have the tools to characterize. Are the measurements manufacturers report those that really matter most to what we hear or simply the numbers that are easiest to obtain? There are certainly things that we can and do measure that rarely show up on equiopment spec sheets. How many things can the human ear/mind perceive for which we have no reported measurements (see Barry's post above)?

 

I also believe that just as our tastes in what type of music we like (Rock, Jazz, Classicval, etc.) differ, so do our tastes in what we want a system to sound like. The difference is that while we don't try to convince each other that liking Jazz is "wrong" we often do try to convince each other that liking a certain sound characteristic is either wrong or unfounded.

 

=+1!!!!!!