Truly Gapless DLNA Controllers?

[ted_b]

tranz and others, this is what I got back from Simon (Minimserver developer) when I asked if OH (or BubbleUPnP specifically) could cause sq changes (assuming you don't transcode in Bubble, of course):

"Using OpenHome doesn't affect the stream sent to the renderer. Using BubbleUPnP Server might affect this stream if BubbleUPnP Server is doing any transcoding.....The OpenHome protocol changes the way the control point and renderer talk to each other. It doesn't change the way the renderer talks to the server. When the renderer is playing music, it is talking to the server to get the music it is playing. This interaction is the same with or without OpenHome. "

[Cebolla]

Well, even though it's 'no news' (apart from confirmation by a known name), can we take this as 'good news' and look for/speculate for reasons of perceived changes in sq elsewhere?

 

After all, there are many variables in this equation and it might be best to eliminate those first, if that's at all possible!

[davide256]

Somehow I think there's more than that to it, that the control point is passing session parameters for playback between server and renderer. We need a DLNA programmer to tell us for sure.

[tranz]

Unless you have selected the option to transcode in Bubble setup and you have installed ffmpeg it will just serve up the files based on the playlists it stores on the server.

 

That is from reading the site info, not directly from the developer.

[ted_b]

Tranz, your response above sounds like I misrepresented you as questioning whether OH is an sq culprit. ? You posted this back around Thanksgiving (and I felt the same way). I never saw a retraction. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Even though Bubble UPnP Server OHMedia simulator works wonders on the controller side, I am starting to wonder if it causes issues soundwise.

More fatiguing.

Anyone else noticed this or is it my imagination?

[tranz]

Tranz, your response above sounds like I misrepresented you as questioning whether OH is an sq culprit. ? You posted this back around Thanksgiving (and I felt the same way). I never saw a retraction. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Hi ted_b,

 

Not at all, I am still wondering why this is the case. And I appreciate you asking Simon. Perhaps it adds additional traffic to the connection to the renderer?

 

I screwed up my BubbleUPnPServer install on the NAS by uninstalling and trying a re-install. It fails a re-install so I have not been able to try since.

 

I was able to get it to run on the Mini but did not like the result. This was also without transcoding.

[tranz]

Has anyone been able to get the unlimited version of the Audionett IMM controller. I really like the clean lines, and simple gapless playback. With the doubt on Emulated OHMedia being optimal this would be a nice option.

[tranz]

Hi ted_b,

 

I really think that you have the closest to optimal DLNA setup with the LAN to I2S DAC solution.

 

Which makes it all the more interesting that you have heard some fatiguing with Bubble running. This does point logically to what John Swenson has measured in his setup of potential noise generated by the receiving chips if they are working harder to receive the audio file packets. Cannot think of another reason really.

 

With the various differences some are hearing still, makes me tempted to optimize the NAS. I found my tweaked Mini to sound better than the NAS in an UPnP setup. But the NAS has a better starting point with a mobo that has no graphics chip and the ability to run 3-5 background processes only as opposed to at least 10x that on a tweaked Mini, etc.

 

So, by doing the following it could perhaps help optimize the transfer of packets to the streamer:

 

1. Sticking in some SATA filters,

2. Removing the fans,

3. Removing the speaker,

4. Putting distance between mobo, vibration and EMI shielding on the harddrives,

5. SSD instead of spinners,

6. LPSU for mobo,

7. LPSU for harddrives,

8. Only MinimServer and Java Manager running,

9. Gigabit switch with LPSU,

10. Others?

 

Cheers

[ted_b]

Tranz, an update:

* I have found that the main culprit to my sq issues was hardware (cabling I was playing with) and not Bubbleserver per se. I have switched it out and in a couple times now and don't find any audible changes (but I can't handle not having OpenHome). I was doing too many things and finally realized I needed to isolate variables so I took the time.

* I bought a $65 8" Android tablet at CES, simply to try BubbleUPnP (Android only) control point. It's ok, but not world beating as some have described it. I am settling into Linn Kazoo (iPad, requires OH) as my go-to right now. That may change.

* I installed a 3rd party Minimserver auto-restart app on my Synology. It installed perfectly and took less than a minute. It monitors my library and restarts Minimserver if any changes/additions occur (something JRiver and others have already, and Simon says Minimserver will have natively soon). The free app is great.

* I am going to install Minimserver on my CAPS Zuma (currently my audiopc in a dual pc JPlay setup that is not being utilized right now) and see if the location and hardware strenght of the Zuma makes a difference one way or the other. I have other reasons to install it here which I hope to write about soon.

[Distinctive]

ted_b;

Are you using MinimWatch on your CAPS Zuma?

[ted_b]

No, Minimwatch is on my home office desktop, where I do my work. I'm typing on it now.

 

If you are not familiar with the Jplay dual setup, the audiopc is not connected to the LAN (only to the controlpc or client via it's 2nd LAN card) and is running core mode, no GUI. It will need to be redone as minimal or GUI mode, and directly connected to the LAN, for me to do the Minimserver install...and so before that is not a candidate for Minimwatch.

[Distinctive]

* I installed a 3rd party Minimserver auto-restart app on my Synology. It installed perfectly and took less than a minute. It monitors my library and restarts Minimserver if any changes/additions occur

Do you mind sharing the name of this app?

[baddog]

The MinimServer Auto Restart package is an unofficial extension for MinimServer Synology users

 

Auto Restart package for Synology users

[Distinctive]

Thx

[tranz]

Hi ted_b,

 

Thanks for the update. Interesting that it is still not immune to cable choices. Please keep us informed.

 

I will check out the restart package, but not sure how this helps. Currently when I start up the NAS, MinimServer starts running automatically and scans the library. Perhaps it is already part of the latest DSM Minim package?

[tranz]

My current fav gapless controller is Audionet IMM. It costs to get the extended playlist version though.

 

The only thing, which Lightning DS does not do either, is M3U playlists for internet radio streams.

[ted_b]

tranz, explain what you mean when you say you start up the NAS. You turn it off at night? My NAS runs 24/7 and Minimserver too. Minimserver only restarts or rescans (up till now) when I tell it to, via Minimwatch.

 

Yes, I have unlimited Audionet too, but got to hate that I would have to switch screen tabs all the time, one each for library, playlist, now playing, etc. Argh! And it doesn't seem to take much advantage of OH.

[tranz]

tranz, explain what you mean when you say you start up the NAS. You turn it off at night? My NAS runs 24/7 and Minimserver too. Minimserver only restarts or rescans (up till now) when I tell it to, via Minimwatch.

 

Yes, I have unlimited Audionet too, but got to hate that I would have to switch screen tabs all the time, one each for library, playlist, now playing, etc. Argh! And it doesn't seem to take much advantage of OH.

 

Hi ted_b,

 

Ah, I understand. Since I only power it up when listening and turn it off at night the auto scan kicks in at boot time.

[rickca]

Hi John,

 

Yes, the logical conclusion would be that the specific renderer is impacted by what happens upstream due to hardware implementation and not so much the DLNA software, NAS, switches, etc. But stranger things have happened.

 

I did post in the Auralic thread to see whether anyone has compared this NAS vs. audio computer as source on the Aries.

 

Cheers

I've compared an Auralic Aries streaming from a CAPS-like Windows server vs from a Buffalo NAS. The CAPS-like server sounded much better. I'm equally mystified and eager to understand why. Clearly the souce of the music files makes a difference. The post I'm responding to is pretty old ... have you made any progress in understanding what's going on?

[Cebolla]

There have been some very interesting threads with regards to isolating network noise. Eg, have you seen?:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/network-isolation-4265/

[tranz]

I've compared an Auralic Aries streaming from a CAPS-like Windows server vs from a Buffalo NAS. The CAPS-like server sounded much better. I'm equally mystified and eager to understand why. Clearly the souce of the music files makes a difference. The post I'm responding to is pretty old ... have you made any progress in understanding what's going on?

 

The closest logical explanation came from John Swenson and the packet burst noise impact. He starts discussing it on this thread around page 9 or 10.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/mac-mini-version-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-music-server-step-step-17666/index9.html

 

Logically, if receiving chips have to work harder to keep re-asking for a packet of data it would create more electrical noise. So anything upstream could potentially impact the timing and quality of data transfer.

 

I also noticed it with Tidal, which sounds great for internet radio, but even though lossless, does not sound as good as the same file from my HD.

[tranz]

I know I keep switching my favourites, but with Tidal additions and internet radio through m3u I am enjoying Lumin with Bubble (a version update fixed my botched installation) the most at this point. Gapless, DXD, DSD256 no issues and it correctly shows the file types. Lumin is now my #1.

[Audio_ELF]

I know I keep switching my favourites, but with Tidal additions and internet radio through m3u I am enjoying Lumin with Bubble (a version update fixed my botched installation) the most at this point. Gapless, DXD, DSD256 no issues and it correctly shows the file types. Lumin is now my #1.

My big frustration with both Lumin and Lightning DS is that in their Library mode they completely ignore sort order specified for artists (and composers and albums) as directed by the server so The Beatles are somewhere down the bottom with The Kinks and Nina Simone is next to Nine Inch Nails (rather than near to The Smiths where she should be IMO).

 

Yes I know I could use "folder" browsing mode but then Kazoo is better.

[Cebolla]

Only thing I can think of is it must be a resource issue with these control apps running on the iPad, so they are likely to be close to being maxed out enough to have to resort to only using the default indexing provided by their internal databases. Otherwise, there shouldn't really be any technical issue in having an extra field plus index in order to provide the user choice to sort by the data's original order when first imported.

[Cebolla]

I know I keep switching my favourites, but with Tidal additions and internet radio through m3u I am enjoying Lumin with Bubble (a version update fixed my botched installation) the most at this point. Gapless, DXD, DSD256 no issues and it correctly shows the file types. Lumin is now my #1.

Might be best to qualify that internet radio functionality that you are using, Tranz, for those that are not aware of it. Presumably you are referring to the m3u playlist files containing internet radio station URLs that the MinimServer UPnP media server uses. MinimServer then provides access to the internet radio streams to the renderer, via the controller app, as if they were just normal music file tracks.