Truly Gapless DLNA Controllers?

[tranz]

Hi Tranz.. report back soon..

 

Nice summary above too..

 

I'm following this thread closely..

 

I could never get BubbleUPnP working on my QNAp..anyway.. a project for another day!

 

Hi wappinghigh,

 

In this link there is a special recent install package for QNAP. Make sure to have your Java Manager / Java Runtime Environment (JRE) running with at least version 7 of Java, I would stay away from the latest v8 at this point.

 

http://bubblesoftapps.com/bubbleupnpserver/

 

Also have your DLNA server installed and running before installing Bubble UPnP Server ( Which really has been given a confusing name). My preference at this time on the NAS is MinimServer.

 

http://minimserver.com/install-qnap.html

 

Cheers

[wappinghigh]

^sure. Thanks for that. I've had MinimServer running fine on the QNAP for a while. It was bubble I was having difficulty installing. But that was a while ago. I'll give it another shot!! Cheers.

[tranz]

With the BubbleUPnP Server, mentioned by Eloise and John (Thank you!) , on top of MinimServer on a NAS it even makes my receiver show up now as an Open Home renderer, and so the following are now ones I am checking out too:

 

Lumin - Very nice looking

Kazoo - Also good looking

 

And I will have to revisit Lightning DS, Plug Player and Kinsky in OHMedia mode too.

 

Let's see whether gapless, FF and REW, song location tracking within a song are now available.

 

Cheers.

 

Just a quick update.

 

Using Bubble UPnP Server alongside MinimServer to get OHMedia controllers to work is brilliant. The following is my preference order:

 

1. Lumin - Stable, gapless, easy FF and REW within song, song position follows along, MinimServer library refresh in setup, although current playlist editing sometimes causes crashes

 

2. Kazoo - Better looking, gapless, FF and REW is buggy and does not always work , #-A-Z search in folder view. An improvement on their Kinsky.

 

3. Lightning DS - Not as stable, but a lot of work is being done. Gapless, FF and REW work within song, but not always effortlessly, song position works but has issues when going to the next song, crashes more frequently.

 

Forget PlugPlayer, Kinsky, Audionet.

 

Cheers

[Distinctive]

With the BubbleUPnP Server, mentioned by Eloise and John (Thank you!) , on top of MinimServer on a NAS it even makes my receiver show up now as an Open Home renderer, and so the following are now ones I am checking out too:

 

Lumin - Very nice looking

Kazoo - Also good looking

 

And I will have to revisit Lightning DS, Plug Player and Kinsky in OHMedia mode too.

 

Let's see whether gapless, FF and REW, song location tracking within a song are now available.

 

Cheers.

The Kazoo server is working with the Lumin control point and renderer, but for the two last Aries firmware updates, the Lightning app is crashing when renderer is invoked.

[tranz]

The Kazoo server is working with the Lumin control point and renderer, but for the two last Aries firmware updates, the Lightning app is crashing when renderer is invoked.

 

Thanks. The Kazoo server also sounds like a good option, except I see it available for QNAP but not Synology yet, so I have not tried it.

 

If Lightning DS becomes more stable it will beat the Kazoo controller.

[Audio_ELF]

A question because I'm too lazy to look the answer up...

 

If using Kazoo iPad app; does the Kazoo server offer additional functionality over using Minimserver?

[Distinctive]

A question because I'm too lazy to look the answer up...

 

If using Kazoo iPad app; does the Kazoo server offer additional functionality over using Minimserver?

I have not spent enough hours with the Kazoo to say anything with confidence.

I am using the Kazoo server on my HTPC (Windows version).

[tranz]

Even though Bubble UPnP Server OHMedia simulator works wonders on the controller side, I am starting to wonder if it causes issues soundwise.

More fatiguing.

Anyone else noticed this or is it my imagination?

[Audio_ELF]

Even though Bubble UPnP Server OHMedia simulator works wonders on the controller side, I am starting to wonder if it causes issues soundwise.

More fatiguing.

Anyone else noticed this or is it my imagination?

It should not be possible for a Control Point to alter the sound quality.

[Cebolla]

Indeed.

 

The BubbleUPnP Server in implementing its ohMedia renderer simulator uses a private internal standard UPnP control point for each of the standard UPnP renderers it is providing ohMedia emulation. Each internal standard UPnP control point contains the music file playlist for the ohMedia renderer that's being simulated, as set up by the ohMedia control point used to originally build the playlist.

 

Thereafter, these internal standard UPnP control points behave just as any other standard UPnP control point, with the BubbleUPnP Server acting as the go between for ohMedia control point playback communication to the simulated ohMedia renderer(s) and its internal standard UPnP control point(s).

[Distinctive]

In this respect, I learned something new yesterday.

Did all of you know that when playing from the memory stick, the music is streamed from the Aries to your router and then back again to the Aries? So the wifi bandwidth is stressed to a larger extent than the normal usage (e.g. NAS).

[Cebolla]

I'm not sure how what seems like poor design within the Aries, has anything to do with UPnP/DLNA controllers, Distinctive.

 

Can you elaborate on what you learned?

Are those participating on the Aries threads aware of this 'feature'?

[Distinctive]

I'm not sure how what seems like poor design within the Aries, has anything to do with UPnP/DLNA controllers, Distinctive.

 

Can you elaborate on what you learned?

Are those participating on the Aries threads aware of this 'feature'?

Subscribing to 10 different threads herein, sometimes it is hard to post in the right one

The impression I got was that this actually was to be expected as part of the uPnP functionality and not a design flaw from Auralic's side.

I couldnt get the grasp of the sense behind it, believing it played from the USB port like every other file transfer (aka PC) so I decided to try it.

During Playback I restarted my router believing that the Aries would just continue playing the selected track from the stick while I temporarily lost the communication with the Lds on my control point, but what happened was that the play icon on the Aries display retained and playback progress stopped (i.e. the elapsed time froze!) until the router restarted. Then the playback could commence from stop position.

This behavior supports what I said in my first posting.

 

Any comments to this?

[tranz]

Hi John and Eloise,

 

Thanks, I really am starting to wonder if this idea of nothing matters upstream from the renderer is correct.

 

Logically this makes no sense, I agree, and I likely need my head examined.

 

Today I compared:

 

1. MinimServer on the NAS (switching PSU) through gigabit wireless bridge ( LPSU) and Lumin controller, versus

 

2. JRiver as DLNA server and controller on severely tweaked Mac. Audio files on TBolt (LPSU) drive.

 

Although I really, really want the NAS to win, it was more fatiguing than the Mac. What the bloody hell is going on?

 

Now John Swenson had made a few intriguing posts about packet noise on this thread starting with post #211:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/mac-mini-version-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-music-server-step-step-17666/

 

Perhaps this really is the main culprit?

 

Cheers

[tranz]

Subscribing to 10 different threads herein, sometimes it is hard to post in the right one

The impression I got was that this actually was to be expected as part of the uPnP functionality and not a design flaw from Auralic's side.

I couldnt get the grasp of the sense behind it, believing it played from the USB port like every other file transfer (aka PC) so I decided to try it.

During Playback I restarted my router believing that the Aries would just continue playing the selected track from the stick while I temporarily lost the communication with the Lds on my control point, but what happened was that the play icon on the Aries display retained and playback progress stopped (i.e. the elapsed time froze!) until the router restarted. Then the playback could commence from stop position.

This behavior supports what I said in my first posting.

 

Any comments to this?

 

Hi Distinctive,

 

The Auralic hardware thread is followed by Mr. Wang and likely could provide better answers.

[Distinctive]

Yes, I will check directly with Auralic, however I had a hope that those with intimate knowledge about uPnP would comment whether this observation had anything to do with how uPnP with Linn extensions/ohMedia works.

[davide256]

Even though Bubble UPnP Server OHMedia simulator works wonders on the controller side, I am starting to wonder if it causes issues soundwise.

More fatiguing.

Anyone else noticed this or is it my imagination?

Haven't heard any "fatiguing" artifacts with BubbleUPNP, its my second favorite controller after Kinsky. Fatigue irritants in my experience come from

the renderer and to some extent from power supply.

[Cebolla]

Yes, I will check directly with Auralic, however I had a hope that those with intimate knowledge about uPnP would comment whether this observation had anything to do with how uPnP with Linn extensions/ohMedia works.

I don't actually have intimate knowledge of UPnP nor ohMedia, but do have some experience with the way network connections interact with the software that uses them. Given that UPnP uses a standard network protocol stack, the file data being streamed from the internal UPnP media server (that handles the connected USB storage device's music files) to the internal UPnP renderer on the same Aries, should be routed via the shortest path. Therefore, I would expect it to be handled internally within the host machine (the Aries) and certainly not go via any connected router and back again!

 

 

The impression I got was that this actually was to be expected as part of the uPnP functionality and not a design flaw from Auralic's side.

I couldnt get the grasp of the sense behind it, believing it played from the USB port like every other file transfer (aka PC) so I decided to try it.

During Playback I restarted my router believing that the Aries would just continue playing the selected track from the stick while I temporarily lost the communication with the Lds on my control point, but what happened was that the play icon on the Aries display retained and playback progress stopped (i.e. the elapsed time froze!) until the router restarted. Then the playback could commence from stop position.

This behavior supports what I said in my first posting.

It's possible that the Aries host machine has been designed to rely on just one active network connection for its network components (eg the Aries's internal UPnP media server & UPnP renderer) to interact with, which would include with each other. If that connection is disconnected (such as the WiFi being lost when the router is restarted), those network components will no longer be able to talk to each other. This would be a possible explanation for your observation.

[Cebolla]

Hi John and Eloise,

 

Thanks, I really am starting to wonder if this idea of nothing matters upstream from the renderer is correct.

 

Logically this makes no sense, I agree, and I likely need my head examined.

 

Today I compared:

 

1. MinimServer on the NAS (switching PSU) through gigabit wireless bridge ( LPSU) and Lumin controller, versus

 

2. JRiver as DLNA server and controller on severely tweaked Mac. Audio files on TBolt (LPSU) drive.

 

Although I really, really want the NAS to win, it was more fatiguing than the Mac. What the bloody hell is going on?

 

Now John Swenson had made a few intriguing posts about packet noise on this thread starting with post #211:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/mac-mini-version-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-music-server-step-step-17666/

 

Perhaps this really is the main culprit?

 

Cheers

Certainly very interesting comments by John Swenson. Isn't the gist of it that the main problem is with the as yet unattended 'dirty' power supply to USB DAC input components, making any other issues, even possible problems with devices 'upstream', pale by comparison?

[tranz]

Hi John,

 

Yes, the logical conclusion would be that the specific renderer is impacted by what happens upstream due to hardware implementation and not so much the DLNA software, NAS, switches, etc. But stranger things have happened.

 

I did post in the Auralic thread to see whether anyone has compared this NAS vs. audio computer as source on the Aries.

 

Cheers

[tranz]

Has anyone been able to get BubbleUPnP Server running on Mac OS? Like the sound of MinimServer, but am not a fan of any of the UPnP controllers, thus getting the OHMedia emulator running on a Mac would be luverly.

 

When I run the launch.sh it mentions that JRE is not installed. However the latest v7 JRE is installed, and MinimServer is running happily on the Mac. Is there some way to set the JAVA path on a Mac?

 

Cheers

[tranz]

In case anyone else is interested in running BubbleUPnP server on a Mac in order to make your UPnP renderer visible as an OpenHomeMedia renderer, and you are running your DLNA server on the Mac I was able to get it up and running.

 

Step Summary:

 

1. Download the installation zip file from http://bubblesoftapps.com/bubbleupnpserver/

 

The section on the webpage for Mac is called "Other Java platforms (Linux, MacOS X, Raspberry Pi, NAS, ...)"

 

2. Unzip and copy the files to your Mac. I put it in a folder in the Applications folder

 

3. Download the Mac OS X x64 installation file of Java JDK from http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jdk7-downloads-1880260.html

 

I am using v7u71 and it should not be confused with Java Runtime (JRE) that is already installed to get Minimserver up and running.

 

As a little side note, JRE installs in /Library/Internet Plug-Ins/JavaAppletPlugin.plugin, not under /Library/Java.

 

4. The launch.sh file did not have the correct java path for me, so I updated the following small section using the Text Editor with the correct path:

 

From the following:

 

then JAVA="$JAVA_HOME/bin/java"

 

To the following

 

then JAVA="Library/Internet Plug-Ins/JavaAppletPlugin.plugin"

 

5. Make the launch.sh file that was in the zipfile executable by:

 

a. Select the file in Finder

b. Get Info (cmd-i or select from right-click menu)

c. In the "Open with" section, choose "Other…" in the popup menu

d. Choose Terminal as the application

 

6. Run launch.sh (double clicking it will now work)

 

A pop-up should show a bunch of log activity. Let it work through a moment.

 

7. Open Safari and go to http://localhost:58050 to show the configuration interface. A web page with multiple tabs allows you to select and setup your renderer

 

8. Now Kazoo or Lumin can be used.

 

Cheers

[ted_b]

I wanted to refresh this discussion; it is a good one for me.

 

As some of you know I have been incredibly impressed with the sound of the Sonore Signature Rendu (Jown Swenson-designed I2S module, etc) and it's comaptibility with the PS Audio Directstream I2S connection (Nordost Silver Screen HDMI). It's the main aspect of my review of the DAC on page one here.

 

I am trying to recreate when I did what to my DLNA/Openhome setup. I believe I added Bubbleserver on my Synology after the review (Making the Sig Rendu an emulated OpenHome renderer). It allows me, as you all know more than me, to take full adavnateg of OH stuff like rendere-based plyalists, more stability and indepedence from control points falling asleep on iapds, etc. A main feature is the larger pool of control points available to me, including Kazoo and a fully working Lumin or Lightning app (which seemed to see previously the non-OH Rendu but often were not terribly aware of its playlist, and were not stable options for me).

 

I am wondering, as tranz first pointed out, if the addition of Bubbleserver on the NAS has compliucated the signal path to the point of risking any sound quality. We all know that once we get out systems tweeked that there are the perceived good days and bad days (how we feel, humidity, etc etc) but I sense a very small but distinct sense of grain or fatigue when running as OH. I haven't yet a/b'd or anything, but just starting the conversation back up.

 

BTW, Kazoo ipad is nice but doesn't offer playlist saving, and also a couple other features that it's Windows version does (artist shown as album art, etc)

[baddog]

Well Ted, it appears that on January 1st of this year you did not yet have Bubbleserver installed on your system, by January 3rd you did. Not sure how that ties in with your review period, et al. My system sometimes has very bad days wherein everything just sounds flat and wrong, which I attribute to a bad electricity day.

 

Smoking Gun

[ted_b]

Barr,

Yes, thanks! LOL, you know my system's life history better than I do.

 

I did my review in late December so it was with SSR as DLNA, not as OH. Thanks.