Mutec MC-3+

[nbpf]

@zoltan, ismewor, One and a half: thanks for your replies!

 

@zoltan: do you have to manually change the input on the Mutec front panel when you switch from USB to SPDIF or does the device do that automatically?

[afrancois]

4 hours ago, One and a half said:

The MC-3 + USB is equally capable of improving aes3 as well as SPDIF.  Well SPDIF is pretty well on the low side of sq,  but the mc makes a difference there too, not so much as with aes3 and usb.

SPDIF is the unbalanced implementation of AES/EBU and is most of the time as good. A generalization as to say that SPDIF is low quality is simply a lie.

[SwissBear]

9 hours ago, nbpf said:

I agree with your remarks. On the other hand: voiding the warranty is not the only step which is needed in order to use the Mutec with a separate PSU. One also has to open the box, do some soldering, etc. I wold not mind voiding the warranty but I am not prepared to do the tinkering and a unit with a standard 5.5mm connector would be ideal for me. I very much hope that the Ref 10 will not be the only inhabitant of the new Empyreal Class for too long ...

I agree with you. Why not ask Mutec if they are prepared to modify the MC-3+ USB for you ? The more they receive requests in this direction, the clearest they will receive the message that they need to offer a DC input for free as an alternative.

[SwissBear]

9 hours ago, nbpf said:

If I am not mistaken, in most of the posts in this thread the MC3+ USB has been deployed as a USB convertor and reclocker. Has anybody tried to use it as a reclocker of a SPDIF stream? I was thinking of trying it connected to the SPDIF output of an Allo DigiOne. Can I expect significant improvements or just differences? Thanks, nbpf

I made this experiment and was not convinced by its benefits. The magic of the MC-3+USB, and even more when it is synced with a Ref-10, is to enrich the listening experience while giving to the music a very natural and analogical presentation. On the other hand, the DigiOne I listened to was enriching the listening experience (more information, better separation, aso), but was still presenting the music in a very digital way, with more harshness if I can say so... I have not been able to suppress this harshness using an MC-3+ USB, although it was synced to a Ref-10.

If you are keen to moving into the direction of the MC-3+ USB, which I encourage you to do, willing to use a better LPSU and even contemplating a Ref-10 type of product, I would encourage you to try the USBBridge of Allo which has the reputation to be more musical, or even a second hand Sonore µ-rendu or SOtM sMS-200. The global listening experience on my systems is very different with these devices.

Just my 2c and not in any case an evaluation of the DigiOne to be clear

 

[Confused]

9 hours ago, nbpf said:

If I am not mistaken, in most of the posts in this thread the MC3+ USB has been deployed as a USB convertor and reclocker. Has anybody tried to use it as a reclocker of a SPDIF stream? I was thinking of trying it connected to the SPDIF output of an Allo DigiOne. Can I expect significant improvements or just differences? Thanks, nbpf

I generally use my MC3+USB with a microRendu, so USB to Mutec and AES/EBU out to a Devialet amp.  I have also tried it with a mid priced Pioneer Blu-Ray player, a reasonable quality CD player and Toslink from a Panasonic TV.  What I have found is that the Mutec offers an improvement in all cases, but it does sound best when fed by the mR.  I think that the reason it sounds best with the mR is simply because the mR is the best thing I have I have used so far to feed the Mutec.  To put this in simple terms, I think the Mutec will improve most things that are connected to it by whatever input used, but to a degree it is 'transparent' to the source, so the better the quality of the feed, the better the quality of the output. 

[nbpf]

1 hour ago, SwissBear said:

I made this experiment and was not convinced by its benefits. The magic of the MC-3+USB, and even more when it is synced with a Ref-10, is to enrich the listening experience while giving to the music a very natural and analogical presentation. On the other hand, the DigiOne I listened to was enriching the listening experience (more information, better separation, aso), but was still presenting the music in a very digital way, with more harshness if I can say so... I have not been able to suppress this harshness using an MC-3+ USB, although it was synced to a Ref-10.

If you are keen to moving into the direction of the MC-3+ USB, which I encourage you to do, willing to use a better LPSU and even contemplating a Ref-10 type of product, I would encourage you to try the USBBridge of Allo which has the reputation to be more musical, or even a second hand Sonore µ-rendu or SOtM sMS-200. The global listening experience on my systems is very different with these devices.

Just my 2c and not in any case an evaluation of the DigiOne to be clear

 

Thanks SwissBear, your results match very well with my observations: my current source consists of a fitPC3 running MinimServer and upmpdcli (a MPD based UPnP renderer) and of a M2Tech HiFace Evo (first generation). The SPDIF output of the M2Tech goes into a Naim DAC. Both the fitPC3 and the M2Tech are powered by Teddy Pardo power supplies. I tested the DigiOne out of curiosity and because I thought that it would be cool to replace 4 boxes (fitPC3, M2Tech and their respective PSUs) with a single small device! My finding was that the DigiOne makes violins sound aggressive to the extent of being unnatural. I believe the DigiOne is a great value and its presentation is engaging. Perhaps even more engaging than that of the M2Tech. But I have found the M2Tech to sound more natural, fluid and less tiring. I am probably quite bad at doing comparisons but I have switched between fitPC3 + M2Tech and RPi 3 + DigiOne a couple of times over a few weeks and my impressions have been consistent. 

 

Now back to the Mutec: in the first place, it would be a replacement for the M2Tech. I am considering replacing the M2Tech, among others, because it requires drivers that are poorly supported on SBCs. I also hope that the Mutec will be an improvement on the M2Tech.

 

I would not mind investing in a single box solution with high quality SPDIF output. But so far I could not find anything that can run MinimServer and a UPnP renderer and that I feel confident that it would sound better than my fitPC3 + M2Tech combo.

 

Thus, the plan is to first replace the M2Tech + TP PSU with a better USB to SPDIF interface and, in a second step, take care of the fitPC3. The only reason why I have not already ordered a Mutec is that I was hoping that they will come out with a version that supports an external PSU.

 

Once the M2Tech replacement is in my chain, I could test an Allo USBBridge or a SOtM sMS-200 Ultra (apparently it can run MinimServer and, with an attached USB HDD, support the same functionalities of the fitPC3) as possible ways of improving the input of the new USB to SPDIF interface.

[One and a half]

2 hours ago, afrancois said:

SPDIF is the unbalanced implementation of AES/EBU and is most of the time as good. A generalization as to say that SPDIF is low quality is simply a lie.

My ears against yours, it's a contest that's unwinnable.

[nbpf]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

I generally use my MC3+USB with a microRendu, so USB to Mutec and AES/EBU out to a Devialet amp.  I have also tried it with a mid priced Pioneer Blu-Ray player, a reasonable quality CD player and Toslink from a Panasonic TV.  What I have found is that the Mutec offers an improvement in all cases, but it does sound best when fed by the mR.  I think that the reason it sounds best with the mR is simply because the mR is the best thing I have I have used so far to feed the Mutec.  To put this in simple terms, I think the Mutec will improve most things that are connected to it by whatever input used, but to a degree it is 'transparent' to the source, so the better the quality of the feed, the better the quality of the output. 

Thanks Confused, that sounds very reasonable! 

[One and a half]

3 hours ago, nbpf said:

@zoltan, ismewor, One and a half: thanks for your replies!

 

@zoltan: do you have to manually change the input on the Mutec front panel when you switch from USB to SPDIF or does the device do that automatically?

Yes, you need to change the input source manually on the Mutec, just as you would a pre-amp input.

[nbpf]

2 hours ago, SwissBear said:

I agree with you. Why not ask Mutec if they are prepared to modify the MC-3+ USB for you ? The more they receive requests in this direction, the clearest they will receive the message that they need to offer a DC input for free as an alternative.

Good point, I have just sent them a technical inquiry. Best, nbpf

[nbpf]

8 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Yes, you need to change the input source manually on the Mutec, just as you would a pre-amp input.

Thanks!

[zoltan]

On this topic of spdif input, I'm wondering how people connect devices like the Oppo or other transports. They only have RCA output and the MUTEC has BNC input. I have DIY-d a 75ohm digital cable which has the respective connectors at each end. This sound better to me than the same cable RCA-RCA and an RCA/BNC adapter, especially that most of those you can find are 50ohm and not 75. 
Has anybody else experimented with this? How do you connect an RCA ouput on transports to the MUTEC? 

[afrancois]

1 hour ago, One and a half said:

My ears against yours, it's a contest that's unwinnable.

You obviously haven’t heard good SPDIF yet. Nothing to do with ears.

[One and a half]

28 minutes ago, afrancois said:

You obviously haven’t heard good SPDIF yet. Nothing to do with ears.

You obviously haven't heard DSD128 or higher either. Try any Blue Coast recording of a DSD256 or DSD128 and stoke those against any 'best' SPDIF. Sorry, USB has the bandwidth to provide a platform for outstanding recordings to shine. We could go on like this for ages and wreck the thread, I'm not interested in that. This will be the last comment on the matter, we disagree, leave it at that, please.

[afrancois]

4 minutes ago, One and a half said:

You obviously haven't heard DSD128 or higher either. Try any Blue Coast recording of a DSD256 or DSD128 and stoke those against any 'best' SPDIF. Sorry, USB has the bandwidth to provide a platform for outstanding recordings to shine. We could go on like this for ages and wreck the thread, I'm not interested in that. This will be the last comment on the matter, we disagree, leave it at that, please.

Not interested in DSD at all. Just the next hype. Remember that all DSD was PCM in a previous life. There are no computer programs to mix or manipulate DSD steams. So PCM is converted to DSD before you buy it. Or worse you convert PCM to DSD before you send it to your DAC. My final words on DSD.

[nbpf]

49 minutes ago, zoltan said:

On this topic of spdif input, I'm wondering how people connect devices like the Oppo or other transports. They only have RCA output and the MUTEC has BNC input. I have DIY-d a 75ohm digital cable which has the respective connectors at each end. This sound better to me than the same cable RCA-RCA and an RCA/BNC adapter, especially that most of those you can find are 50ohm and not 75. 
Has anybody else experimented with this? How do you connect an RCA ouput on transports to the MUTEC? 

I cannot help here but, as a side remark: the Mutec also has an optical input if I am not mistaken. Given that the SPDIF output of the 203 is anyway limited to 24/48 because of copyright restrictions, you could also try an optical connection between 203 and Mutec.

[mourip]

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

My ears against yours, it's a contest that's unwinnable.

 

I want to put this in my signature file. It needs to appear in every thread on CA!

[zoltan]

2 hours ago, nbpf said:

I cannot help here but, as a side remark: the Mutec also has an optical input if I am not mistaken. Given that the SPDIF output of the 203 is anyway limited to 24/48 because of copyright restrictions, you could also try an optical connection between 203 and Mutec.

Said who? A quote from the specs: "Output - Coaxial/Optical Audio: up to 2ch/192kHz PCM, Dolby Digital, DTS."

And it works. I streamed high-res files from my NAS with the Oppo while my SOtM SMS-200 Ultra was away for upgrades. 

During this time, I also tried two different optical cables, both real glass, and they were not nearly as good as the coaxial link. 

[nbpf]

1 minute ago, zoltan said:

Said who? A quote from the specs: "Output - Coaxial/Optical Audio: up to 2ch/192kHz PCM, Dolby Digital, DTS."

And it works. I streamed high-res files from my NAS with the Oppo while my SOtM SMS-200 Ultra was away for upgrades. 

During this time, I also tried two different optical cables, both real glass, and they were not nearly as good as the coaxial link. 

You are perfectly right, my remark was meant for discs: SACD, Blu-Ray, etc. If you use the 203 as a DLNA/UPnP renderer for files streamed from your NAS, its SPDIF output works fine up to 24/192! Thanks for the report on the optical output: if it is not as good as electrical SPDIF, I do not need to try it out. Best, nbpf 

[r11bordo]

On 10/26/2017 at 8:59 AM, SwissBear said:

I made this experiment and was not convinced by its benefits. The magic of the MC-3+USB, and even more when it is synced with a Ref-10, is to enrich the listening experience while giving to the music a very natural and analogical presentation. On the other hand, the DigiOne I listened to was enriching the listening experience (more information, better separation, aso), but was still presenting the music in a very digital way, with more harshness if I can say so... I have not been able to suppress this harshness using an MC-3+ USB, although it was synced to a Ref-10.

If you are keen to moving into the direction of the MC-3+ USB, which I encourage you to do, willing to use a better LPSU and even contemplating a Ref-10 type of product, I would encourage you to try the USBBridge of Allo which has the reputation to be more musical, or even a second hand Sonore µ-rendu or SOtM sMS-200. The global listening experience on my systems is very different with these devices.

Just my 2c and not in any case an evaluation of the DigiOne to be clear

 

Happy to see you done the test 

Perhaps just a wedding history between electronics. I don't perceive this digital way you describe in my system with Digione but perhaps I can conclude the Mutec USB will be a presentation more analogic that is is with Digione, always on my system.

So, have you test just the card or the complete player with the associated PSU?

If you tested the player, have you test the Allo PSU with your Mutec?

 

[mourip]

Question. I currently have a M3USB set to re-sample with USB in and AES out to my DAC in my headphone rig. I also have SPDIF optical going straight in to my DAC from another computer just for playing YouTube and Pandora. That works fine.

 

Today I thought that I might as well take advantage of the optical input of my M3USB so I reconnected my fiber cable into the M2USB but cannot find a setting which produces music. The USB input from my music server still works great.

 

Do I need to set something on the M3USB each time I want to use optical or should it just work?

[mourip]

17 minutes ago, mourip said:

Question. I currently have a M3USB set to re-sample with USB in and AES out to my DAC in my headphone rig. I also have SPDIF optical going straight in to my DAC from another computer just for playing YouTube and Pandora. That works fine.

 

Today I thought that I might as well take advantage of the optical input of my M3USB so I reconnected my fiber cable into the M2USB but cannot find a setting which produces music. The USB input from my music server still works great.

 

Do I need to set something on the M3USB each time I want to use optical or should it just work?

 

Posted too soon. I found the front panel menu choice on the Mutec that let me toggle between USB and optical...

[Kritpoon]

I just converted my MC-3+ USB to use linear power supply (UpTone LPS-1 set @5V) and have been listening for a few days now. I found MC-3+ USB with LPS-1 gives nice improvement in clarity, added fluidity and musicallity. So far so good, no problems at all. IMHO very well worth the time and effort!

[SwissBear]

21 minutes ago, Kritpoon said:

I just converted my MC-3+ USB to use linear power supply (UpTone LPS-1 set @5V) and have been listening for a few days now. I found MC-3+ USB with LPS-1 gives nice improvement in clarity, added fluidity and musicallity. So far so good, no problems at all. IMHO very well worth the time and effort!

Congratulations and glad you like it.

You might have noticed that the LPS-1 was a very good filtering PSU, but was very sensitive to the energizer used. If you have the opportunity, I would suggest you test an LPSU as energizer for the LPS-1. You might even be further impressed.

[Kritpoon]

1 minute ago, SwissBear said:

Congratulations and glad you like it.

You might have noticed that the LPS-1 was a very good filtering PSU, but was very sensitive to the energizer used. If you have the opportunity, I would suggest you test an LPSU as energizer for the LPS-1. You might even be further impressed.

 

Thank you SwissBear, the improvements are really nice and I wish I should have done it long time ago... For the energizing unit of LPS-1, recently there has been much discussion on other threads about the supply energizing units (The Meanwell SMPS) leaking the high frequency leakage current into the LPS-1. This can be taken care of by shunting the negative output of the Meanwell to ground and the procedure and part costs are really cheap. I might try that first to see what kind of improvements I get. Per your recommendations of another LPS powering the LPS-1, with this approach I think its the same concept since LPS has no leakage current at high frequencies. Thank you for your advice