Van Morrison

[InfernoSTi]

It sounds very nice to my ears....I couldn't be happier!

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed folder: /HDtracks/Van Morrison/Astral Weeks (24/192)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Filename

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR12 -2.11 dB -17.27 dB 01-Astral Weeks.aif

DR12 -2.20 dB -18.13 dB 02-Beside You.aif

DR13 -0.92 dB -16.85 dB 03-Sweet Thing.aif

DR13 -1.82 dB -17.51 dB 04-Cyprus Avenue.aif

DR11 -0.64 dB -13.42 dB 05-The Way Young Lovers Do.aif

DR12 -2.20 dB -16.73 dB 06-Madame George.aif

DR11 -1.97 dB -15.99 dB 07-Ballerina.aif

DR14 -3.39 dB -20.01 dB 08-Slim Slow Slider.aif

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of files: 8

Official DR value: DR12

 

====================================================

 

Best,

John

[firedog]

Did you notice the last 4 tracks have a slightly lower DR on my 24/96?

 

I doubt the two versions are a different master. My guess is that the DR program gets slightly different results based on format, as the overall DR average comes out the same.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed: Van Morrison / Astral Weeks - 24-96

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -1.64 dB -17.24 dB 7:06 01-Astral Weeks

DR12 -2.21 dB -18.09 dB 5:15 02-Beside You

DR13 -0.82 dB -16.82 dB 4:24 03-Sweet Thing

DR13 -1.81 dB -17.51 dB 6:56 04-Cyprus Avenue

DR10 0.00 dB -13.42 dB 3:18 05-The Way Young Lovers Do

DR11 -2.18 dB -16.71 dB 9:43 06-Madame George

DR11 -1.56 dB -15.99 dB 7:03 07-Ballerina

DR13 -3.31 dB -20.00 dB 3:20 08-Slim Slow Slider

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 8

Official DR value: DR12

 

Samplerate: 96000 Hz

Channels: 2

Bits per sample: 24

Bitrate: 2740 kbps

Codec: FLAC

[mwheelerk]

It sounds very nice to my ears....I couldn't be happier!

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed folder: /HDtracks/Van Morrison/Astral Weeks (24/192)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Filename

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR12 -2.11 dB -17.27 dB 01-Astral Weeks.aif

DR12 -2.20 dB -18.13 dB 02-Beside You.aif

DR13 -0.92 dB -16.85 dB 03-Sweet Thing.aif

DR13 -1.82 dB -17.51 dB 04-Cyprus Avenue.aif

DR11 -0.64 dB -13.42 dB 05-The Way Young Lovers Do.aif

DR12 -2.20 dB -16.73 dB 06-Madame George.aif

DR11 -1.97 dB -15.99 dB 07-Ballerina.aif

DR14 -3.39 dB -20.01 dB 08-Slim Slow Slider.aif

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of files: 8

Official DR value: DR12

 

====================================================

 

Best,

John

 

Did you notice the last 4 tracks have a slightly lower DR on my 24/96?

 

I doubt the two versions are a different master. My guess is that the DR program gets slightly different results based on format, as the overall DR average comes out the same.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Analyzed: Van Morrison / Astral Weeks - 24-96

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -1.64 dB -17.24 dB 7:06 01-Astral Weeks

DR12 -2.21 dB -18.09 dB 5:15 02-Beside You

DR13 -0.82 dB -16.82 dB 4:24 03-Sweet Thing

DR13 -1.81 dB -17.51 dB 6:56 04-Cyprus Avenue

DR10 0.00 dB -13.42 dB 3:18 05-The Way Young Lovers Do

DR11 -2.18 dB -16.71 dB 9:43 06-Madame George

DR11 -1.56 dB -15.99 dB 7:03 07-Ballerina

DR13 -3.31 dB -20.00 dB 3:20 08-Slim Slow Slider

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 8

Official DR value: DR12

 

Samplerate: 96000 Hz

Channels: 2

Bits per sample: 24

Bitrate: 2740 kbps

Codec: FLAC

 

Interesting. It may be the audio codec (FLAC vs AIFF) that is the issue because my 24/96 DR result is the same as the 24/192 above and I downloaded an AIFF file.

[InfernoSTi]

Interesting on the difference.

 

I'm pleased we aren't complaining about compression. The sound quality doesn't seem brickwalled to me, there is lots of detail and "smoothness" with a very real presence in the 24/192 copy. I'm very happy right now....

 

Best,

John

[firedog]

Just to make sure no one thinks otherwise, I'm very happy with the sound of the 24/96.

[Al Jones]

Just downloaded the 24/192 WAV version, which gave me plenty of time to reflect on exactly how often I have bought Astral Weeks since the first LP release.

 

My reference is the 2009 Japanese CD remaster. In direct comparison, the hirez version is marginally more open, cleaner and smoother. The CD does not seem compressed when heard back to back with the files.

 

In particular, the unschooled rawness of Van's voice is more distinct here, a level of clarity that more marginal fans might prefer to do without.

 

Al J.

[BlackKnight]

Are you bitter or what???

 

Bitter about what exactly? HDTracks is a garbage company that rips off consumers with the majority of their releases. Just spreading the truth.

[chriss71]

*lol* Just wait until @Robert Hutton comes in...

 

OK, I have also some problems with HDTracks, but your generalization is just not true...

(For sure in this case this are the best versions out there: Blue Note (just all of them, no XRCD no Analogue Productions comes close to the new High-Res Masters), The Eagles from Bernie Grundman or the Green Day Releases, so....)

[fredhammersmith2]

Bitter about what exactly? HDTracks is a garbage company that rips off consumers with the majority of their releases. Just spreading the truth.

 

Garbage comment. I've bougth plenty from HDTracks, compared with domestic CD releases and will continue to buy from them.

Problems? Yes, from time to time. Like any seller.

[kumakuma]

*lol* Just wait until @Robert Hutton comes in...

 

OK, I have also some problems with HDTracks, but your generalization is just not true...

(For sure in this case this are the best versions out there: Blue Note (just all of them, no XRCD no Analogue Productions comes close to the new High-Res Masters), The Eagles from Bernie Grundman or the Green Day Releases, so....)

 

Not to mention Chesky's own releases such as Amber Rubarth's Sessions From The 17th Ward, Wycliffe Gordon's Dreams of New Orleans, C.C. Colletti's Bring It On Home. All absolutely wonderful.

[firedog]

back on topic, please. No need to discuss HDT in general here.

[Jud]

I am sure that is where the excitement will end. Probably another garbage upconvert from a CD. They should not even be allowed to operate.

 

Completely agree with firedog here. *Factual* comments about the *specific* provenance of Astral Weeks or other Van Morrison downloads are on topic and helpful to other members, so happy to see more of those.

[cgiammona]

I am listening right now to the 24/192 and thoroughly enjoying Van!

[Robert Hutton]

*lol* Just wait until @Robert Hutton comes in...

 

 

No Chris, only a fool gets sucked in by a troll.

[InfernoSTi]

I was just comparing the 24/192 to the Japanese Remaster CD. On song 1 (Astral Weeks) the string section that comes in at the beginning of the song is dark and recessed on the JR CD...it is crystal clear and vibrant on the 24/192 HDTracks release. Day and night better....

 

John

[fredhammersmith2]

Why do I have the feeling that this is some numeric transfer without any mastering move?

Is this the new trend? No mastering whatsoever?

A bit of a letdown. The music is sublime but sq is not much different from the domestic release of the 80's. I may find the time to compare EQ choices. I am about sure it is about the same.

I have a recent needledrop of the Gray vinyl which is very different. Sweet Thing, for instance, is way more inviting.

I wrote a review (in French), for those interested: Astral Weeks sur HDTracks – les voûtes s’ouvrent pour Van Morrison | Le mur du son

[InfernoSTi]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by numeric transfer, not remaster? Help me understand?

 

If you mean it is a "flat" transfer without adding EQ, compression, and a heavy hand of editing, then I think this is a good thing. While I love "better" versions, those come out 10% of the time it seems. The other 90% they seem over done to my ear. I would much rather give up on the 10% chance that the engineer does a great job without interfering too much and get a copy that is open and clear, than to suffer the work being ruined for another 20 years time.

 

I found the Japanese CD to have a very different sound quality than the Warner HDTracks release, both in detail and in presentation (see post #90 as an example). I have the original 80's CD but haven't bothered to compare it as it was inferior to the Japanese CD to me.

 

Best,

John

[Patrick Cleasby]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by numeric transfer, not remaster? Help me understand?

 

I think as he's French and 'numerique' means digital in French, he's suggesting it's a flat digital transfer of a production master. (Unless I miss my guess...)

[Robert Hutton]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by numeric transfer, not remaster? Help me understand?

 

If you mean it is a "flat" transfer without adding EQ, compression, and a heavy hand of editing, then I think this is a good thing. While I love "better" versions, those come out 10% of the time it seems. The other 90% they seem over done to my ear. I would much rather give up on the 10% chance that the engineer does a great job without interfering too much and get a copy that is open and clear, than to suffer the work being ruined for another 20 years time.

 

I found the Japanese CD to have a very different sound quality than the Warner HDTracks release, both in detail and in presentation (see post #90 as an example). I have the original 80's CD but haven't bothered to compare it as it was inferior to the Japanese CD to me.

 

Best,

John

 

As do virtually all the Warners hi-res transfers, it sounds to me like a flat transfer. No "mastering" at all.

 

I would imagine this is and will be the trend going forward. People can, with digital tools in high quality programs, do their own "mastering" to taste.

 

Funny - a few years ago, Steve Hoffman touted often the virtues of 'flat transfers', which confused the hell out of his acolytes, and eventually it emerged that he rarely is involved with anything like a flat transfer. Almost always does his "mastering moves", which is little more than adjusting eq at various frequency levels of a console. We can now do that ourselves, if we want to - and dispense with the middleman.

[fredhammersmith2]

I think as he's French and 'numerique' means digital in French, he's suggesting it's a flat digital transfer of a production master. (Unless I miss my guess...)

 

Exactly.

[fredhammersmith2]

As do virtually all the Warners hi-res transfers, it sounds to me like a flat transfer. No "mastering" at all.

 

I would imagine this is and will be the trend going forward. People can, with digital tools in high quality programs, do their own "mastering" to taste.

 

Funny - a few years ago, Steve Hoffman touted often the virtues of 'flat transfers', which confused the hell out of his acolytes, and eventually it emerged that he rarely is involved with anything like a flat transfer. Almost always does his "mastering moves", which is little more than adjusting eq at various frequency levels of a console. We can now do that ourselves, if we want to - and dispense with the middleman.

 

Well, it depends on the talent and the quality of the so-called middleman.

Yes I will prefer a flat transfer to a highly compressed remastering, with an extreme EQ.

Still, a good/great remastering is wonderful. It is still part of the process for me.

[fredhammersmith2]

For those with analytic minds...

EQ differences, using the domestic Warner release (CD) as a reference, compared with the HD Tracks version and the needledrop I was talking about. "Sweet Thing" used, FFT 4096.

 

http://rougetaureau.smugmug.com/photos/i-xzKCfqm/0/L/i-xzKCfqm-L.jpg

 

http://rougetaureau.smugmug.com/photos/i-5TnbVsM/0/L/i-5TnbVsM-L.jpg

[bdiament]

I have not heard any of these new versions, though I've been a Van fan for many years and got to see him live in '71, around the time "Street Choir" came out. It was a great show.

 

The reason for this post is the erroneous "flat transfer" ideal, about which I may (hopefully) be able to shed a little bit of light. I can certainly understand why a lot of folks would think of flat transfers as a good thing, particularly in view of how many recordings are massacred in the mastering nowadays.

 

But consider this: The same "sensibility" that leads many (folks who refer to themselves as) mastering engineers to do sonic and musical damage, can be found in the recordists and mixers too. Put another way, the only folks I know who desire flat transfers are folks who have not heard many (or perhaps *any*) master tapes.

 

Just ponder how most records are made: Multiple microphones (meaning multiple, disparate time signals mixed together), placed much closer to the instruments than one would choose to place their ears (how about inside the piano, under the lid, an inch above one or two of the 88 hammers?), fed though a "console" with a *very* long signal path, hundreds of solder joints and switches and knobs, patch cords, etc. and listened to through glorified car speakers, usually placed to *guarantee* a midrange dip at the engineer's ears. Typical methods involve turn knobs in an attempt to address problems that should have been avoided at much earlier steps. And so on and on. Same thing at mix time -- the same (or another) console and all that follows. More external gear to patch in, more knobs to twiddle. All based on what a set of "monitors" that require a square of toilet tissue over the tweeter to make them a bit less intolerable. (This last, known as "the Charmin mod"! I've always said, if they need toilet paper to absorb what is coming out of the speaker, that pretty much describes what is coming out of the speaker.) Where a mic could have been moved a few inches (or removed!), a knob was twiddled instead. Sonic decisions were based on "monitoring" that is hopelessly incapable of simply getting out of the way and revealing the content of the source itself.

 

To be clear, the above does not describe every studio and every recording. However, in my experience, it does describe the overwhelming majority (99%?) of what I've seen in many studios over the years.

 

Now, with that in mind, it is not at all surprising to find that most master tapes need help.

In my earliest days as an engineer, having been an audiophile first, I too felt everything should be a flat transfer.

If the recording is one of the tiny, tiny minority that is truly well made, a flat transfer is definitely in order. But for typical studio recordings, well, I can remember an album I mastered in those old days, where I could finally demonstrate what a flat transfer would do. That album will remain nameless but it is a good one to play if you need to strip paint from the walls. As I soon came to learn, if I can apply some judicious EQ and make a recording not *hurt*, then the EQ is a good thing and the flat transfer is just silly.

 

The problems with typical studio recordings vary. Every master sounds *very* different from every other master. Not all are "ear rippers". One might have a particular issue with a poor EQ or mic or placement choice, resulting in a peak in one part of the frequency range. Another might have a broad bloat. There might be a trough in another recording, leading to a "suckout" in the presence region. Still another might have an elevated presence region, making for a thin, bright, edge. They're all different and they all need to be addressed differently.

 

(By the way, these differences from recording to recording in fact, are a great way to evaluate how transparent a component or system really is, even if one can't compare it with playback of the master -- the greater the difference from recording to recording, the more transparent the component or system. Any coloration is applied to everything that passes through it and this diminishes differences. If one seeks real transparency, as opposed to some particular color, listen for the greatest degree of differences between different recordings.)

 

Again, there are those very rare exceptions where the recording as delivered was properly done and needs absolutely no tonal adjustment. Almost all though, will require some very minor level adjustments from song to song, to ensure the listener does not have to keep turning their volume control up (or down) between tracks.

 

Lastly, some folks think mastering is just turning knobs and making adjustments. They believe a recording with nothing done to it at all is "not mastered". I guess that's one definition but it isn't one I'd agree with. I say, if the recording was not mastered, there would be nothing for us to listen to, so in reality, unless one is listening to the original master recording itself, the chances are better than excellent that what is being listened to has been mastered. If it is on any sort of disc you put in a player, it was mastered.

 

Know too that a lot of releases that have been called flat transfers on Internet audio fora have in fact been EQ'd and more than a little bit.

 

So I hope this post helps to clarify why the idea of a flat transfer is not really what many of us would want for many recordings (and certainly most typical studio jobs) if we actually got to hear the sonic results.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[firedog]

For those with analytic minds...

EQ differences, using the domestic Warner release (CD) as a reference, compared with the HD Tracks version and the needledrop I was talking about. "Sweet Thing" used, FFT 4096.

 

http://rougetaureau.smugmug.com/photos/i-xzKCfqm/0/L/i-xzKCfqm-L.jpg

 

http://rougetaureau.smugmug.com/photos/i-5TnbVsM/0/L/i-5TnbVsM-L.jpg

 

Don't understand what you are trying to show - so your conclusion is?

[InfernoSTi]

Thank you, Barry, for the thoughtful post. I seem to learn something new every time I read one of your posts.

 

My main issues are:

 

1. It sounds great to me on my system...better than my previous "best" version. I don't have a vinyl rig so digital is my only option (comparing to a "best" vinyl copy doesn't help in my situation, in other words).

 

2. It isn't compressed by modern standards with a DR 12 rating. I'm happy with that.

 

3. It doesn't appear to be a brick-walled up-sample of a CD (there appears to be information above 20kHz).

 

Therefore, I am very happy with this release.

 

As I said to fredhammersmith2 earlier:

 

"I'm not sure what you mean exactly by numeric transfer, not remaster? Help me understand? If you mean it is a "flat" transfer without adding EQ, compression, and a heavy hand of editing, then I think this is a good thing." (emphasis added)

 

It seems that some new high resolution releases suffer from compression and/or brick-walling and don't sound better than an earlier release of a CD version. This one, to my ears, is not that way. And that is a very good thing given the importance of this album (and the subsequent three albums by Van).

 

Best,

John

 

P.S. That 1971 show must have been great! I grew up in Sonoma County after my folks move up from SF in 1970 and we always had the early LPs on in the house. My folks used to go see Van at the Inn of the Beginning in Cotati for shows that were not big concerts during the early to mid-'70s and I've seen him once with my Mom in Berkeley at the Greek Theater (a nice memory as we went with her old roommate from their days at Cal). I guess I have more than a small emotional investment in these albums coming out and in a nice manner.