Article: Weiss Engineering DAC202 Review

[barrows]

I mostly disagree with your comment. While I accept that when this thread started discussing Chinese manufacture and the politics of such it went off topic (the Weiss is made in Switzerland), I do not think the discussions of the Weiss DAC 202s' approach to jitter management versus competing products approaches to jitter are off topic at all.<br />

Forum threads are always bound to drift a little, but comparing and contrasting the Weiss with other DACs is entirely interesting to me, and seems quite appropriate here.<br />

[gcorley]

Mostly constructive.<br />

<br />

I find the thread mostly informative and definitely understand asych and its variations better now (though still not sure how this affects overall sound quality).<br />

<br />

The manufacturers involved, with the exception of one, kept on topic, discussed technical details and refrained from criticizing others design or manufacturing approaches.

[tresaino]

100% agree, a fascinating thread, no punches below the belt and very informative.<br />

<br />

Charles regarding the Ayre Dac, ok point taken that USB can be upgraded as 192 is now available on USB for Mac. Gordon is right, this will be fun!<br />

<br />

"As far as connecting CD players, why in the world wold you want to connect a CD player? You already have a CD drive built into your computer. Almost all music player programs offer the choice of ripping it to the disc or playing right off the drive in real time."<br />

<br />

Sorry but on this one I have another view: why do you want to force people into ripping CDs to hard disc or play from a computer? A macmini is pretty silent but makes more noise playing a CD directly than a dedicated quality CD transport. Don't ask me why, but using a relatively cheap Tascam Pro CD player as transport in AES/EBU to the DAC2 sounds better than playing the same disc off the macmini. And it is somewhat more fun too. Not as good as spinning a record but still..<br />

[bbq]

Other than the comparison from Asia on the two gears, anyone has done some serious listening to the two ? It was questioned that the Medea used was an older version..<br />

<br />

Medea now has a firewire version too...... so I wonder how the two stand against each other ?<br />

<br />

I too think the DAC202 looks a bit industrial. I prefer the look of Medea much better but, I do not want to sacrifice the sound quality for it.<br />

<br />

Anyone has done the comparsion and could share with us ?<br />

[barrows]

"Don't ask me why, but using a relatively cheap Tascam Pro CD player as transport in AES/EBU to the DAC2 sounds better than playing the same disc off the macmini. And it is somewhat more fun too. Not as good as spinning a record but still.."<br />

<br />

Most folks here are gonna suggest that you may have a problem with your computer setup if a transport spinning the disc in real time sounds better than the computer via Firewire to the same DAC. I am certainly surprised that you find this to be the case. May I ask what playback software you are using, and what kind of files you are playing back?

[Audio_ELF]

barrows ... I interpreted Roberto's comments that it's better playing the disc on the Tascam CD player rather than playing the disc on the MacMini's CD-ROM drive (i.e. not ripping it). Not sure if this is what he meant but it's how I took it.<br />

<br />

But it's not just about CDs. What if you want to connect your BluRay drive or want to listen to the radio or a concert broadcast by your satellite company. Or when my friend brings their iPod filled with their lossless music - my Onkyo (or the Wadia) dock lets us access that digitally too. All these require a SPDIF connection. <br />

<br />

As Roberto said, the lack of SPDIF connections is a decision that is made by Ayre and can be respected even if you disagree with it, but to say that a SPDIF connection is never needed is ignoring other sources and rather disingenuous - it's a small argument that I've made with Gordon (Wavelength) in the past.<br />

<br />

Eloise

[Andrew S.]

<i> but to say that a SPDIF connection is never needed is ignoring other sources and rather disingenuous<br />

<br />

Agreed. <br />

<br />

[chrille]

I could do that already with my old Macbook and Leopard.<br />

<br />

It works fine via firewire connected to the Minerva.<br />

<br />

But I was under the impression that with Snow Leopard support had been extended/improved?<br />

<br />

Obviously not? <br />

<br />

Thanks anyway .

[chrille]

Dear Charles, I think you got your facts a bit wrong there.<br />

<br />

Do a search at the LINN site to start with, and you will find quite a few.<br />

<br />

The list there stands at 45 titles as of today and keeps growing.<br />

<br />

If you do a search at 2L from Norway, you will find even more.<br />

<br />

In fact many of the 2L files are also available as 24/192 files.<br />

<br />

If on top of that you add Reference Recordings HRx disks you've definitely got a lot more than "barely a handful".<br />

<br />

All the best Chrille<br />

<br />

<br />

[cfmsp]

<br />

<br />

"I think you got your facts a bit wrong there"<br />

<br />

Chrille, I don't think Charles was trying to be factual. <br />

<br />

He was simply making the point that the amount of material both recorded and offered (without being merely upsampled) above 96kHz is infinitesimally small compared to the universe of music available.<br />

<br />

Much of that which can be found is "audiophile" music, in my humble opinion. <br />

<br />

YMMV, and apparently does. <br />

<br />

I personally stopped buying audiophile music years ago due to Holt's Law of Recording Quality, i.e. by and large, there is an inverse relationship between musical performance and recording quality.<br />

<br />

No disrespect meant to Keith Johnson, the Chesky Brothers, Kavi Alexander, and others who are trying to counter Holt's Law.<br />

<br />

clay<br />

<br />

<br />

[labjr]

Well how many of the 45 titles would you buy? I haven't seen many 24/96 titles I want.

[tresaino]

barrows Eloise got it right, this is what I meant, cheers.

[barrows]

Eloise, et al. Well, you know how I feel about SPDIF. It is pretty clear from the whitepaper at Ayre's website that they will likely never make any DAC or CDP for that matter with an SPDIF input, as their belief is that SPDIF is a poorly performing interface.<br />

Ayre has never made a stand alone DAC until the QB-9, and only produced the QB-9 because they could use Wavelength's Asyncrhronous USB, avoiding the jitter problems inherent in SPDIF.<br />

Another thing to consider, is that adding an SPDIF input to the QB-9 would not be trivial in terms of circuitry and manufacturing costs. It is not just a matter of putting an RCA/BNC jack on the back and wiring it up-it would require an SPDIF receiver, and clocking circuit, with associated power supplies. Theoretically, adding this option might even slightly compromise the overall performance, as input switching circuitry might not be entirely transparent.<br />

I like the the fact that Ayre and Wavelength do not compromise their point of view with these products just to satisfy a few customers who might want a (sonically/technically inferior) SPDIF input in addition to USB; instead they focus on producing the best possible performance via USB, and accept that their DACs might not suit everyone's desires. As Gordon has mentioned, if one really needs an SPDIF input, one can choose to use the digital input on a Mac.<br />

Ultimately, no one product is going to have the exact feature set to suit every customer, and manufacturers must make choices on what features to offer, based on their own perspective on value, performance, and flexibility.<br />

<br />

Roberto: that is interesting, sometime I will have to try a comparison like that. I wonder why the drive in the mini would be worse-it seems computers read the disc and buffer the datastream-I wonder if their drive code for reading is different than ripping (error correction-re-reads)? Computers have plenty of RAM, so they should just operate as memory players, if this is done right performance should outstrip a standard CD style transport.

[Audio_ELF]

@Barrows...<br />

<br />

As I said, I respect that Ayre make a choice to make a pure USB DAC, but they can't argue that SPDIF if no longer relevant for other digital source which is what Charles said (implied). As you say... <em>"Ultimately, no one product is going to have the exact feature set to suit every customer, and manufacturers must make choices on what features to offer, based on their own perspective on value, performance, and flexibility."</em> To say that an SPDIF input will compromise the USB performance is a red herring (to my mind). Many companies do manage to make devices with good computer interfaces (USB or FireWire) alongside SPDIF, but it is their CHOICE not to - but don't tell us that those of us who feel they are needed for other sources are wrong. Having said that of course Naim (a manufacturer I have respect for their products) feel that adding USB (to a computer) will compromise the performance of their DAC so it works both ways!<br />

<br />

Gordon comments about using the SPDIF input of the Mac as an input to the DAC - but that means that when someone wants to use (for example) their BluRay player they need to turn on the Mac and configure the input to direct to the output. This is not user friendly solution (okay I'm not a hairy chested audiophile - I expect things to work transparently).<br />

<br />

I'm not saying I'm right (wanting an SPDIF) and you're wrong - there is no right or wrong in this design choice ... it's a choice but it does mean that the Ayre is not a product that I would consider.<br />

<br />

Eloise

[chrille]

cfmsp said: "point is still relevant" <br />

<br />

Yes I have to agree with you regarding several of the Reference Recordings titles,of which there are, as of today just a total of 15 titles at ridiculously high prices too.<br />

<br />

Yes,several of them are IMO too ,of limited interest from a musical standpoint.<br />

<br />

They can definitely be desribed as nothing but HI FI Spectaculars of limited musical value.<br />

<br />

But I suppose they have a market for that stuff as well, at least in the USA?<br />

I honestly think that the audiophile music genre problem you are describing is basically a problem mainly in the USA.<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

But to label Britten and Mozart and Rachmaninov,from Reference Recordings and all the mainstream Classical composers and contemporary music from Bach and onwards on the LINN labels,site and Morten Lindberg's 2L, as only of audiophile interest,that is NOT a statement I can agree with at all.<br />

<br />

You have heard it often enough before from me, but the fact remains. <br />

<br />

The best techniques are best employed where they are most needed, ie recording, complex musically really interesting acoustic music by some of the greatest minds in the history of music on planet Earth.<br />

<br />

And more and more labels that really care, are actually recording either in 24/192 PCM or DXD or DSD.<br />

<br />

This is just the beginning of a new glorious ERA where those who care enough about music as an ART form can get the,longed for, Master Quality just an easy click away, provided they are willing to pay!<br />

<br />

Let the kids share MP3 compressed stuff until their eardrums implode and they go deaf from all the noise they expose themselves to.<br />

<br />

And let music lovers get their music in full master Quality. <br />

<br />

There is a simple and very logical reason why most hi res material in any format happens to be of "Classical Music" or so called ART music with a sprinkling of JAZZ thrown in.<br />

<br />

If Art music as such is of limited interest to you I can only feel sorry for you.<br />

<br />

If that is the case you are denying yourself the immense joy of some of the most fullfilling truly EARGASMIC musical compositions available to mankind.<br />

<br />

<br />

There are as of today well over a hundred titles over 24/96 available from different sources.<br />

<br />

Admittedly still less than a drop in the Ocean.<br />

<br />

And admittedly ,some of it is of limited interest to me too.<br />

<br />

But with the exception of the American label Reference Recordings the others are,more often than not,releasing important core repertoire music and contemporary music of real lasting artistic and musical value.<br />

<br />

In Europe there is even a label called ARTS for ART music,music that is in its qualities and values comparable to the other ARTS, Painting and Sculpture and Great Litterature for example.<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

But then again each to his own... <br />

End of Lecture ..<br />

<br />

All the best and Happy listening Chrille<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

[cfmsp]

<br />

<br />

"I honestly think that the audiophile music genre problem you are describing is basically a problem mainly in the USA."<br />

<br />

"But with the exception of the American label Reference Recordings the others are,more often than not,releasing important core repertoire music and contemporary music of real lasting artistic and musical value."<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

perhaps you're right, I'll take a look see. <br />

<br />

I now have a DAC capable up to 192kHz.<br />

<br />

Any specific recommendations for my first entree?<br />

<br />

cheers,<br />

clay<br />

[Charles Hansen]

>> But I was under the impression that with Snow Leopard support had been extended/improved? <<<br />

<br />

FireWire could always operate at high sample rates because it used bulk mode and appeared to the computer hardware like a hard drive. It then required software drivers to allow it to record and play back audio.<br />

<br />

For USB it has been a slow progress. Leopard (10.5) was supposed to handle Class 2.0 Audio but turned out to have some problems. Then Snow Leopard (10.6) had working Class 2.0 Audio but was limited to 96 kHz and therefore offered no improvement over Class 1.0 Audio.<br />

<br />

Just a few days ago Apple released OS X version 10.6.4 which fixed USB Class 2.0 Audio so that it goes up to 192 kHz. We are shipping the new high speed USB receiver board in our DX-5 Blu-ray player now, and should be caught up enough to ship the QB-9 by next month. Other manufacturers will no doubt have other product soon also.

[labjr]

<i><br />

Other manufacturers will no doubt have other product soon also.<br />

</i><br />

<br />

Now if the remastering guys would only start doing some classic rock.

[Charles Hansen]

>> Now if the remastering guys would only start doing some classic rock. <<<br />

<br />

Everything has been at a logjam due to the lack of support from the operating systems. This is starting to change, so I think there will be more 192 and 176 in the future.<br />

<br />

HD Tracks has led the way (over 1000 high-res tracks) although they haven't had much classic rock. Mobile Fidelity has had the most classic rock, but I don't know that they will start offering 192 downloads anytime soon.<br />

<br />

There were a few classic rock albums on DVD-Audio. There are ways to rip these to hard drive, but you still won't have much of a collection.

[labjr]

<i> Mobile Fidelity has had the most classic rock, but I don't know that they will start offering 192 downloads anytime soon.<br />

</i><br />

<br />

MFSL does quite a bit on CD but lately it doesn't sound good to me. I don't know who's doing the mastering there or what equipment they are using. Some of the Japanese imports sound much better to me. Audio Fidelity is great too. Maybe Steve Hoffman will start doing 24/192. I don't know if it's a contractual thing or just the money that comes with the volume of Gold CDs they sell.

[barrows]

Good to see that we are in agreement mostly here. I have some of the Reference HRx material, and understand your point of view regarding its musical value/relevance-but as noted, the Rachmaninoff not only sounds great, but is wonderful music as well.<br />

"There is a simple and very logical reason why most hi res material in any format happens to be of "Classical Music" or so called ART music with a sprinkling of JAZZ thrown in."<br />

I think you are inferring here that more classical titles are available in high resolution becuase the music itself demands to be heard in high resolution, right? If my understanding of your point is correct, I will have to disagree.<br />

I love and get great enjoyment out of a lot of different musical styles, including classical music of the great masters. The fact is that any good music can benefit from high resolution recording-previously you made a statement regarding the electric guitar that demonstrated a relative lack of respect for the virtuoso performers on that instrument. Many electric guitarists go to great lengths to achieve a certain tone in playback, and they achieve their tone through their playing technique, choice of instrument, strings, electronics, etc. Electric guitars can produce a very complex structure of overtones, and good players are highly adept at achieving the exact sound that they desire. For the listener to hear the tone of the electric guitar, as the musician intended, requires a very, very good playback system-just as reproducing a violin or cello accurately also requires a very, very good playback system.<br />

Classical recordings are generally not mass market in comparison to more popular music forms, but the producers of classical music know that the majority of people who do purchase it are generally more demanding of sonic quality (and willing to pay for it) than the (majority) of purchasers of more popular music forms. I believe this is the real reason why there is currently not a lot of popular music available in high resolution. Unfortunately, the few folks (like us audiophiles) who would love to be able to purchase Led Zeppelin in new 24/192 remasters from the analog tapes are perceived as such a small percentage of the Led Zeppelin customer base, as to not warrant the extra expense and complexity of high resolution re-mastering.<br />

Hopefully, the continuing evolution of computer based audio playback, and the increasing bandwidth of the internet, will eventually lead to a situation where high resolution digital audio becomes the norm for all music recording. As music lovers we should demand high resolution for all music types.

[chrille]

Not really knowing your taste it may be a bit difficult to recommend things you will really like.<br />

<br />

But the following to mention just a few ,are all SOTA and also really good music IMO.<br />

<br />

From Linn I can for example recommend the five Beethoven Piano Concertos,and also at Linn but from the German label Acousence Schostakovich's 15th symphony coupled with Mozart'st 35th,the famous Haffner symphony, both in absolutely superbly naturally balanced and very realistic live Concert recordings,that makes any RBCD version sound anaemic and dull in comparison.<br />

<br />

Also at Linn but from Channel Classics I would recommned Beethoven's 7th and Mahler's 4th and Brahm's 1st symphony in fantastic musical and sound quality.<br />

<br />

The Channel Classics material originates from DSD masters.<br />

<br />

If you don't find it too expensive the Rachmaninov from Reference Recordings already mentioned,is of course one of the very best.<br />

<br />

From 2L I would for example recommend the latest release Trondheimsolistene in Folkstyle.<br />

<br />

Regarding 2L I have to back off my estimate of 24/192 files for sale.<br />

Checking today I see there are not as many as I thought actually on sale.<br />

<br />

I can download more than those few.<br />

<br />

But all those on sale are excellent. <br />

<br />

All the best and happy listening Chrille <br />

<br />

ps What DAC 24/192 capable DAC did you get?<br />

Firewire or USB? <br />

<br />

[fds]

Hi Charles,<br />

<br />

"Just a few days ago Apple released OS X version 10.6.4 which fixed USB Class 2.0 Audio so that it goes up to 192 kHz. We are shipping the new high speed USB receiver board in our DX-5 Blu-ray player now, and should be caught up enough to ship the QB-9 by next month. Other manufacturers will no doubt have other product soon also."<br />

<br />

It is great to hear that the QB-9 with new 192 kHz capabilities will be available next month! In fact, while being very impressed by the QB-9, I am still waiting for this update to get a product that is more future-proof.<br />

<br />

Greetings, Frank<br />

<br />

[Audio_ELF]

Is it really appropriate for Charles to be promoting the fact that his DAC (and Blu-ray player) will be supporting 192/24 over USB now / in the next month. He's already been rubbishing Chinese manufactured products in this thread with negative comments on working conditions and (I think) the quality of them - the Weiss (which this thread should be about) isn't even manufactured in China.<br />

<br />

It's fine to comment that SnowLeopard 10.6.4 is supporting USB Class 2.0 Audio - but why say more except as a promotion!<br />

<br />

I know I have made several off topic comments on this thread (in reply to other people comments) but as a manufacturer surely he is held to a higher standard of relevance - especially on a thread about a product which is a direct competitor to his own products!<br />

<br />

Eloise

[4est]

As far as I can tell both Gordon and Charles have shamelessly capitalized on their competitors review. I fully agree with BobH in that another manufacturer shouldn't be able to comment on a review. If this were a thread about firewire or China it would be different. <br />

<br />

For instance, Gordon has cast a shadow of doubt that the Weiss is not Async when Weiss has stated that it met the master/slave criteria. Just because Gordon cannot fathom one being able to manage the process well with only one clock, does not mean it isn't possible. In fact, this review pretty much proves that it can be done.<br />

<br />

As I said before, it is bush league in my opinion.