Article: Weiss Engineering DAC202 Review

[Lars]

I'm sure the Weiss DAC 202 is a wonderful sounding DAC. I hope to have the opportunity to hear one in my system in the near future.<br />

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My Wavelength Crimson Silver has the Denominator module using an ESS Sabre 32 DAC. Wavelength uses discrete power supplies for all the analog supplies and the Master Clocks. Opamps aren't used. Audio transformers are used to sum the differential output of the Sabre32 to conform to the modular basis of the Crimson design.<br />

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The ESS Sabre 32 in this execution is outstanding in its sound quality.

[labjr]

<i><br />

so they save some cost in the Minerva/DAC 2/DAC 202 by using an IC based output stage."<br />

</i><br />

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<i><br />

providing discrete linear regulation (rather than monolithic ICs) would require a lot more circuitry and expense-perhaps this could improve performance somewhat, it would definitely increase complexity and expense...<br />

</i><br />

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Increase expense! It already costs almost $7,000! Nearly three times the cost of the Ayre which has discrete circuitry. The MSRP apparently has very little to do with with the cost of the parts. I'd be surprised if the parts cost 5 percent of the MSRP. <br />

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Now I'd be curious to hear the Ayre with an ESS DAC chip. <br />

[barrows]

I am a big fan of Ayre products BTW. The ESS 9018 requires more power supplies than the BB 1796 used in the QB-9. I am not quite sure that the Ayre has all discrete supplies-I seem to recall seeing some three pin style regulators in there last time I looked under the hood?<br />

If you would like an example of the price of a DAC with the ESS 9018, and discrete power supplies and output devices, check out the price on the Wavelength Crimson with ESS option as described in the post above.<br />

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[artk]

The idea that anyone can sell a dac for $6,700 shows that the market is full of people with more dollars then sense. Keep in mind that the key active component is an ic dac from one of a handfull of companies. You can't buy one that costs more then 20 dollars or so. Every other consumer product has been able to leverage the increasing price performance of microelectronics to provide better quality at a lower cost. Look at your PC, current models cost a fraction of what they cost 5 years ago and give you ten times the performance. Why hasn't high end audio followed the same route. The cost of a high end audio dac was several thousand dollars 5 years ago. By now, it should cost several hundred. <br />

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For once, I'd like to see a high end audio review follow what's commonly done for every other equipment review, a teardown that lists the major parts and their cost. I'm sure that if you opened up that Weiss dac that you're gushing about, I seriously doubt that you'll find more the couple of hundred dollars of parts.

[barrows]

Seriously??? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? High end audio products are produced in the hundreds to thousands of units, mass market electronic products (computers, TVs, etc) are produced in the millions of units. There is no comparison. The cost to the manufacturer of mass produced electronics is entirely different than the cost to the manufacturer of high end electronics.<br />

"Keep in mind that the key active component is an ic dac from one of a handfull of companies. You can't buy one that costs more then 20 dollars or so."<br />

The above statement is entirely incorrect in so many ways.<br />

If you are so clever, I am sure you are raring to go start your own audio company, and ready to produce your own products, as by your understanding you will be able to offer similar performance for a fraction of the going rate. I'll be happy to be first in line to buy your DAC when it is released.<br />

[The Computer Audiophile]

Art - We all use the same dictionary full of free words. Using your logic all books should only cost as much as the paper they are printed on. <br />

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Since you seem to dislike high end audio you may want to continue on to the next website.

[labjr]

Barows,<br />

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I never said Wavelength was the best value in high end audio. Though it was a much better value 20 years ago it still is a better value than Weiss appears to be. <br />

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I don't care how you slice and dice it. To me, Weiss is overpriced like most other high end brands. Even more so. <br />

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Why didn't you pick the Wyred4sound DAC for your comparison? They use an ESS DAC chip.

[artk]

The Weiss DAC uses an ESS Technology Sabre32 Reference DAC. When that part was first released, it's sample quantity price was $39. Current production quantity prices are half that. Call ESS and get a quote yourself. Oh, all the magical jitter control that high end reviewers have fixated on are included in the part. <br />

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As for starting a company, I think that the high end market is completely disfunctional. I know that it’s pretty easy to engineer a DAC that meets or exceeds the performance of any unit on the market for a couple of hundred dollars if you plan for the high volumes and low margins that are the backbone of the consumer electronics industry. The problem is that the average high end audio purchaser believes that price equals quality. <br />

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Once again, I think that every review should include a cost of goods analysis. That will shake up the market.<br />

[The Computer Audiophile]

Art - You clearly have a thing against the high end audio industry. Suggesting it's easy to engineer a DAC and that the built-in jitter technology is good enough is preposterous. <br />

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Just about every industry can be considered dysfunctional if you spend enough time working in the industry. If that's all you focus on I guess that's your issue.<br />

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Publishing the cost of physical parts of a component is such a claptrap. Name one industry where the cost of parts is even close to the price of the product. Way back in the day I worked for the world's largest hair care company. The cost of shampoo ingredients was literally pennies per bottle. The retail price was anywhere from a couple dollars to over one hundred dollars. Would you like me to find a site dedicated to hair care so you can leave comments?<br />

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Are you familiar with the fine clothing industry or bespoke suits? The thread that makes up a suit might cost a couple dollars but the final price of the suit is closer to $2500. Using your logic this is a crying shame and the clothing industry should be shaken up with a cost of parts chart. <br />

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Target Corp. produces millions of men's ties each year. Buying thread at less than a penny per yard in huge quantities and assembling the product in Asia. The retail cost is far over the cost of materials. At the same time Robert Talbott produces relatively few hand sewn and individually numbered Seven Fold ties each year. Buying the materials in far fewer quantities. Again the retail cost is far over the cost of materials. I'll also assume that his seven fold ties that start at $245 here in the U.S. may cost more in other countries depending on import taxes and shipping. <br />

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You could use the same paragraph above but replace Target with Sony and Robert Talbott with Weiss. <br />

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Let's also not forget the most expensive part of any consumer product. Labor.<br />

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[barrows]

"Why didn't you pick the Wyred4sound DAC for your comparison? They use an ESS DAC chip."<br />

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Because you were remarking about components which use discrete power supply regulation. While I am very excited to give a listen to the W4S DAC 2, it does use monolithic voltage regulators and not discrete circuitry. To be clear, the W4S does have a discrete analog output stage, which likely will be a benefit to its sound.<br />

Of course, the W4S distribution model is a little different than Weiss, as they sell direct to consumers, rather than through the traditional dealer structure that Weiss employs. Some posters here have complained that they cannot easily get an in home trial of the W4S DACs-this is a result of their business model, as a result of their low pricing and direct sales.<br />

In any case, I have no problem with the selling price of the Weiss DAC 2, it seems in line with me, considering its Swiss provenance, high build quality, and reported sonic performance. Unfortunately, I cannot afford it, but that does not make me feel it is overpriced.

[artk]

Chris sez: "Publishing the cost of physical parts of a component is such a claptrap. Name one industry where the cost of parts is even close to the price of the product"<br />

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The electronics industry typically sells equipment for 2 or perhaps 3 times the cost of goods. Not the apparently 10 to 20 or 30 times that seems to be common in the high end audio business. The fact is that high end audio is a technology business that repackages high volume low margin microelectronics into low volume high margin equipment with questionable added value. Do you really want to compare high end audio to the cosmetics industry? The packaging in the cosmetics industry is typically the most expensive part of the product. They are selling hope, high end audio claims to be selling high performance, not a pretty box.<br />

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The cost of goods is a common part of the review for many consumer electronics devices. There are web sites dedicated to parts teardowns. The effect is that it informs consumers and keeps manufacturers competitive. If consumers had that sort of information about their high end purchases it would shake up the market. <br />

[Audio_ELF]

One thing that most people forget when considering cost is that you have to amortise the development cost over the number of units you expect to sell. For a low-end high volume product, the per unit cost of development is negligible, for a high-end low-volume product the cost is significant.<br />

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The same is true of so many components and parts, design a nice case and get tooling made, build 100 cases that tooling cost is spread over 100 cases, make 100,000 cases (like Marantz or Denon do) and the tooling costs are back to being negligible. Same for circuit boards, etc.<br />

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Eloise

[4est]

I think Eloise nailed it. I run a low volume, high margin business. It does not mean I am getting rich, or even making money for that matter. Frankly I think it is silly to keep complaining about the prices of anything. If it costs too much, don't buy it until the fire sale.

[salwani]

Mass market goods are competing on price where everything is lower...R&D costs, tooling, material and labour costs, marketing costs, manufacturer and dealer margins. And quantities are huge.<br />

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High end stuff is competing on quality/craftsmanship. Usually hand assembled in countries with high labour costs and overheads. The scale of production is incomparable - Its obviously going to cost more and companies can command more. <br />

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Would i be surprised that this DAC's material costs are less than $500.....not really. Add in the R&D costs, tooling, labour and overhead for a niche manufacturer in a developed country. Most importantly, add a nice margin for the dealer. I dont think the company will make an island-in-the-bahamas' worth of cash over the product's life cycle.<br />

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There is value to be found in high end. And you will find price gouging in any industry. And its all relative. To me, the Weiss is expensive, but then my $3000 DAC is $3500 too expensive for others. <br />

[labjr]

<i><br />

While I am very excited to give a listen to the W4S DAC 2, it does use monolithic voltage regulators and not discrete circuitry. To be clear, the W4S does have a discrete analog output stage, which likely will be a benefit to its sound.<br />

</i><br />

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So by your logic, the Wyred4Sound DAC should cost more than the Weiss because it has more?<br />

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<i><br />

In any case, I have no problem with the selling price of the Weiss DAC 2, it seems in line with me, considering its Swiss provenance, high build quality, and reported sonic performance. Unfortunately, I cannot afford it, but that does not make me feel it is overpriced.<br />

</i><br />

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The DAC2 was more reasonably priced. When the virtually identical Minerva was priced $2,000 more than the DAC2 it became evident they were overpricing their products. Daniel came on here to comment that the input circuitry of the DAC202 was pretty much the same as the DAC2. So basically they added the ESS DAC chip and associated circuitry and the price increased $1,700 or $3,700 depending which Weiss product you compare it to. <br />

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I highly doubt Weiss will make an identical product in their pro line this time like they did with the DAC2 Minerva. I imagine they probably didn't anticipate that someone would actually open the units to compare them.<br />

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I think this kind of situation does affect value of a product. If Ferrari was selling a car which was virtually identical for 70% more because it had a different model number stamped on and sold through a different distribution channel, people would question the value of the brand.

[blueixus]

Does the 202 not have a volume control and a remote control capability over the Dac2.<br />

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Are we comparing apples with apples?<br />

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It seems to me that Daniel Weiss has the right to price his products to fit his business. I have heard the 202 and is quite outstanding.<br />

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The question is not what's in it but what comes out of it.

[Audio_ELF]

<em>The DAC2 was more reasonably priced. When the virtually identical Minerva was priced $2,000 more than the DAC2 it became evident they were overpricing their products. Daniel came on here to comment that the input circuitry of the DAC202 was pretty much the same as the DAC2. So basically they added the ESS DAC chip and associated circuitry and the price increased $1,700 or $3,700 depending which Weiss product you compare it to. </em><br />

I think you are mischaracterising the differences from the DAC2/Minerva to the DAC202. IIRC he (Daniel) may have commented the input section is pretty much the same but thats only a very small portion of the design of a DAC - the most important parts are the DAC itself and (even more) the analogue circuitry that comes after and the Power Supply design.<br />

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As for the difference in price between the DAC2 and the Minerva, there is a big difference in the supply chain costs associated with pro and HiFi markets and the case construction of the Minerva was much higher.<br />

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Eloise

[labjr]

<i><br />

As for the difference in price between the DAC2 and the Minerva, there is a big difference in the supply chain costs associated with pro and HiFi markets and the case construction of the Minerva was much higher.<br />

</i><br />

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much higher? How much higher could it be since the cost of parts seems tiny compared to the MSRP of the products.<br />

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Well how many bought the Minerva for it's case after it was found to be indentical to the DAC2 inside? <br />

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If they made a product for their pro line which is identical to the DAC202 except for the case for far less money which one would you buy?

[blueixus]

Some people bought the Dac2, some the Minerva preferring a more Hifi looking product rather than Studio styling of the Dac2. At the end of the day there is usually a bigger market for Pro Gear than HiFi gear so prices/dealer margins are usually lower.<br />

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Regarding dealer Margins; HIFi dealers usually have a harder time selling gear than Dealers selling Pro Gear, which may go some way justify their margin.<br />

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Regarding the 202 it has a remote volume control, remote switching and headphones out which is likely to make it less suited to the Pro Market, if a pro audio version stripped of these 'luxuries' comes out it will probably be priced accordingly.

[labjr]

<i>"Some people bought the Dac2, some the Minerva preferring a more Hifi looking product rather than Studio styling of the Dac2. At the end of the day there is usually a bigger market for Pro Gear than HiFi gear so prices/dealer margins are usually lower.<br />

<i/><br />

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After the cat was out of the bag, it was probably more like many bought the DAC2 and few if any bought the Minerva. Why? Because of the price difference. I don't remember anyone saying they wished they bought the Minevra because of the case. Has anyone actually compared the two to see if the case sounds different?

[Charles Hansen]

>> I am not quite sure that the Ayre has all discrete supplies-I seem to recall seeing some three pin style regulators in there last time I looked under the hood? <<<br />

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All of the critical voltage regulators in all Ayre products are custom discrete, zero-feedback designs. This obviously applies to the analogue signal path, and also to the critical digital signal path including the DAC chip, the master audio clock, the clock distribution path, et cetera.<br />

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The only time that we use pre-packaged (sometimes 3-pin, sometimes more) regulators is for non-critical digital circuits, such as the volume control display on our preamps and things like that.

[barrows]

Here is the deal. If one thinks something is overpriced, guess what: you do not have to buy it.<br />

Having worked for a manufacturer in the high end audio business I can reliably state that these companies are not "overpricing" their gear. The companies involved in high end audio price their gear at the level necessary to stay in business, and sometimes (and I mean this, many companies are struggling to stay in business) make a reasonable profit. The high end audio companies are not making big bucks and getting rich off of this-they do it for a love of music and in home music reproduction.<br />

Eloise was right on in her analysis of the costs of bringing a product to market.<br />

RE W4S DAC2 vs Weiss 202: my point was that W4S' business model is entirely different than Weiss, did you read that part of my post? If one takes the dealer out of the equation selling price is going to drop, but there is a cost for this approach, as one does not get all the service that a good dealer can provide. As a consumer once again this gives you a choice: some will like the advantages of working with a good dealer, and will be willing to pay for that level of service.<br />

One other thing: that the pro audio market is bigger than the high end market is shameful in my opinion. I think if we as audiophiles really want more sonic performance for our money we should do everything we can as enthusiasts to try and develop more audiophiles. There are plenty of potential audiophiles out there who can afford the hobby, and love music, who just do not know how much more they could enjoy music in their homes with a high end system. Try introducing your music loving friends to high end audio, if we expand the market, prices will come down.

[labjr]

<i><br />

Here is the deal. If one thinks something is overpriced, guess what: you do not have to buy it.<br />

</i><br />

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Or in the case of Minerva vs DAC2, go buy the identical product from the pro audio dealer for less money.<br />

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Audiophiles may say they want service but virtually all are basically just consumers and don't care if they get their gear from high end or pro dealers. They just want the lowest price. Do you shop around or try to negotiate a better price when you buy a new piece of gear? Or do you just write the check for the MSRP?

[labjr]

Hi Charles,<br />

<br />

Have you experimented with the ESS DACs for use in Ayre Products? I'm wondering if their DAC chips would make a big change to the sound of your products.

[artk]

As a consumer, the profitability of the manufacturer or his need maintain an expensive tiered distribution network doesn’t really interest me. My primary concern is the price performance of the delivered product. It’s my contention that the high end business doesn’t provide satisfactory price performance. The electronics are all based on high volume mass produced parts. As modern electronics goes, the demands of audio aren’t particularly challenging. The signal to noise ratios and frequency response requirements are primitive. The bit rates are slow, the magic jitter issues involve timings that are actually remarkably long compared to the sort of clocking that fiber or 10GB Ethernet or infiniband easily deal with. Once again, pick up a parts catalog, and behold you’ll find enough high performance $5.00 dejitter chips to make anyone happy, the same ones that do their magic in that overpriced dac you just bought. <br />

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I’ve heard people talk about the hand crafting and long life components. First, you can’t really build high performance electronics by hand. You need sophisticated multilayer circuit boards, and those are the children of automated manufacturing. Remember, this isn’t a hand crafted Patek Philippe watch that’s designed to last generations. It’s electronics equipment based on parts that are obsolete in a few years. <br />

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The market may exist for some time, catering to people who are convinced that excessive prices are the same as high quality. But a market that seems to be able to sell multi thousand dollar power and speaker and usb cables can’t last. It’s easy to see how the semiconductor industry will continue to produce higher performance parts for less money. The high end manufactures may end up just populating their boards with unconnected parts in the vain attempt to keep their customers convinced they are actually getting something for the money. <br />

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Markets with a future give customers true value for their money, the high end market fails at that most basic requirement.<br />