New Sonore Signature Server

[dummy]

Here?

 

Come on now...

 

;-)

 

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

Yes me... I replied to a post and the post I replied to has vanished!!

 

Eloise

 

And then reappeared!!

 

[Audio_ELF]

So basically what you are saying i2s as used by W4S, PS Audio et al is NOT i2s but i2s over LVDS?

 

As you say " It's also not a competition and just a matter of preference" so why the f*** do people say crap like "it sounds good because it's using i2s". It doesn't. It sounds good because the DAC and "transport" are being connected in the optimum way. Just as in the old days you might match a TAG transport with a TAG DAC because they had the optimum compatible connections.

 

Please don't get me wrong, from what I see / read you are doing well with your products (though I do think back to your "MacMini Busted" post sometimes and smile) but the USB interface is a universal connection where as relying on (LVDS) i2s to a particular DAC is more of a two-box one-box player.

 

Finally, as a developer / commercial entity I must say your comment "Nothing wrong with USB, but i2s is really good." should actually be read as "we can't get USB to work as well as we can get i2s to work".

 

Eloise

 

[dummy]

It's in the trees!

 

It's coming!

 

 

;-)

 

 

 

[blaine78]

"Why is this better than a Mac mini?"

 

hell, my self built mini itx PC windows 7 with j river is better sounding than mac mini. just saying.

 

[vortecjr]

your hot pepper today!

 

They use i2s internally and LVDS i2s to transport over the cable.

 

In regards to your WTF question they say this because that is how they feel! Why is that to hard to believe? They don't have to beat around the bush like I do. I can't just say it's really f***ing good.

 

Now don't get me started on the Mac Mini Busted post...LOL It was just a catchy name to get people to read about the HDX. I admit it turned into a rather fun post. BTW I think the company is gone. You should here my Popcorn Hour with LVDS i2s output....it's really f***ing good:) I modified it though with parts I sell so you have to ask me per house rules.

 

Finally, I'm tired and I'm not going to address your USB comment....

 

Jesus R

www.sonore.us

 

[barrows]

Jesus/Sonore have no horse in this race, as he offers either a really good USB output (using the isolated SOtM USB card) or a really good I2S output from his servers at the customers preference.

Gordon, on the other hand...

I did not suggest that there is anything wrong with well implemented async USB, I use it with my own DAC (and I have used external, LVDS I2S with the same DAC as well). My only suggestion (and I only stated this as a possibility) was that perhaps the I2S input on the W4S offers the better performance vs. a USB feed from a Mini.

Note that W4S' forthcoming server will offer a I2S output to go with their DAC, apparently they feel there is an advantage to the I2S connection...

 

"My understanding is the primary reason for parallel short tracks for i2s is down to timing errors. i.e. the clock signal must be 100% synchronised to the data for perfect transmission as by using i2s there is no ability to recover from timing errors. If this is correct, how does the differential signal actually allow for this to be corrected when (again my understanding) the point of differential cabling is to correct for external interference which by acting on both the normal and inverted signal are able to be canceled out."

 

As long as the wiring is close to the same length, there will be no problems here. The clocks will be synched, because they are all generated from the same oscillator. The data is synchronized because it is timed from the same oscillator as well. There are no inherent problems in I2S transmission between components when the PS Audio interface is properly implemented, Additionally, this interface is open source, and anyone is encouraged to use it.

Yes, it is cable sensitive, and a really good, high speed cable will give the best results, just like async USB, SPDIF, analog transmission, and everything else in audio.

 

The nice thing with a Sonore, is one can choose the interface they need to best pair with their own DAC.

 

[Audio_ELF]

"In regards to your WTF question they say this because that is how they feel! Why is that to hard to believe? They don't have to beat around the bush like I do. I can't just say it's really f***ing good."

 

I don't think you read what I said...

 

I said ... It's not good because it has an i2s connection!!

 

I went on to say... It sounds good because the DAC and "transport" are being connected in the optimum way (and could add) and the whole system / server is well designed.

 

If anything I'm complementing your company more!

 

Eloise

 

[vortecjr]

I didn't take that part in a bad way...

 

Jesus R

www.sonore

 

[Audio_ELF]

What ever the reality and faults of i2s as an external interface, I think this is straying WAY off topic (and I'm to blame for that)...

 

At the end of the day I was just trying to draw the correct conclusions which can then be applied to other people's systems and somewhere I lost that message...

 

Eloise

 

[losingmyreligion]

 

"There is a lot of talk about a so called "stripped down Linux OS dedicated for audio" IMHO it's really just people being paranoid:)"

 

I hear you, JR.

 

OTOH, I'm a very strong believer in Einstein's dictum that "things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler".

 

More importantly, I'm a recent convert from the OSX world where seemingly every goddamn thing anyone does to change either the OS, the software or the hardware impacts the sound, despite that we're not completely certain why the sound is different. ;0

 

 

Thanks to Eloise for the reminder of Mac Mini Busted thread. Speaking as another one of the participants, that WAS fun! Ah, those were the days.

 

 

For what it's worth, I'm very happy for your (& Adrian's) success, and proud to say I knew you way back when. Congrats!

 

 

all the best,

clay

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vortecjr]

thanks for the kind words!

 

JR

 

[Paul R]

Correct me if I am wrong, but LVDS is Low Voltage Differential SCSI to me.

 

You are saying we have moved back to SCSI connections to move audio around?

So Macs had it right back int the 1980s.

 

Heck, just to throw a monkey wrench in this, Gordon's DACs are brilliant to me, and produce exactly the sound I like. I rather want one of his more expensive models, but the lowest end model he makes, the little Proton, sound so darn good I cannot bring my self to upgrade. (The wife would make me sell the Proton.

 

I do not think i2s would improve the sound of the Wavelength DACs any, so I question that it is a superior transport.

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

I also have one of Gordons wonderful DACs and I have zero problems using it with Linux.

 

[Philande]

Jesus built the first I2S Sonore for me because I asked him if it was possible as I had read about the theoretical advantages of the connection. I have no idea whether I2S is better than USB and there is no way to compare the two connections as the W4S DAC will not support USB via a Linux op. However; The music that plays through my system is fabulous.

 

I visited the Capitol Audiofest here and listened to as many rooms and manufacturers as I could. Only two systems were clearly superior and they were MBL and the Wilson/ Dagostino combo. Those systems cost better than 100k each and both were using computers as a source.

 

My point is, I don't care if the connection is the reason for the great sound that I have. What's important to me is that my investment in Sonore and W4S is a success. It could have gone the other way as I purchased before listening. Jesus promised me that he wouldn't ship me the unit if he couldn't get it to play well and was true to his word. My Sonore plays flawlessly through this connection.

 

 

 

 

[Paul R]

I'm sorry I seemed to imply that the Proton has problems with Linux, it does not.

 

Some of the Linux players and devices do not work well at all with Async USB DACs, thinking here mainly of the Logitech Squeezebox Touch. It sounds absolutely fabulous, but will produce tics and pops while driving the Proton. Buffer under/over runs or something, related to the version of Linux on the machine.

 

The Proton is hooked to a Linux box running Vortexbox and Squeezeslave right now, and plays absolutely gorgeous music. Easily better (in my system!) than a Rega Dac, a W4S, a Nekko, and a few others.

 

-Paul

 

 

[vortecjr]

the proton is not bit perfect on Linux without fixing a few things people usually overlook. Shall I take a look and make sure for you?

 

Jesus R

www.sonore.us

 

[AudioDoctor]

I am listening to Joss Stone : Colour Me Free right now via Linux, and it does sound gorgeous.

 

[AudioDoctor]

does that apply to all the Wavelength DACs, or just the Proton?

 

[vortecjr]

but the Proton for sure....

 

Jesus R

www.sonore.us

 

[Jud]

You don't need to know what to add to a minimal Gentoo install because of the dependency tree. Just 'emerge mpd gmpc' after a minimal install and everything you need to be installed for playback is installed because of the dependency tree.

 

Dependencies exist in Gentoo because certain software packages depend on other software packages in order to function. There are no required dependencies for any package in Gentoo's dependency tree that are not essential for that package's functionality.

 

Guess I wasn't communicating effectively. I think we're talking past each other a little. I ran Gentoo nearly from its origin as a distro (though these days I've gotten lazy and have fallen back on 'already-baked' distros like Ubuntu), and have been running FreeBSD, from which Gentoo took its software installation concepts, for nearly a dozen years now. I understand about dependencies, and that non-essential software doesn't get installed as a dependency. (If it weren't essential it wouldn't be an actual dependency.)

 

What I meant is this: In Linux and Unix-land, pride is taken in the fact that there are many, many ways to skin a cat - or play audio, if you prefer that to cat-skinning. Developers of many of the popular ways to play audio have simplified their lives by developing for one of the major desktop environments, so if you want to install one of their applications, that application will bring in pieces of the major desktop environment with it. And most of these apps have been developed to operate with GUIs, so again, you are dealing with choices of software to install that may bring in lots of pieces of a major desktop environment. This is so even in a choose-your-own distro like Gentoo.

 

If you want to go minimalist - use audio playback software that has the capabilities you want, but has minimal dependencies and uses few resources when it is running (maybe even something that uses a CLI rather than a GUI) - this necessitates a degree of familiarity with Linux and the audio playback software available for it. If you use an already-baked solution like Vortexbox or Voyage MPD, the decisions about dependencies, resource use, capabilities, etc., have already been made by someone else. That's perhaps a disadvantage in terms of your not being able to make exactly the selections you might favor given a certain level of knowledge, but an advantage in terms of your not having to make all the decisions and do all the work.

 

I think the already-baked solutions may thus have merit for folks not intimately familiar with Linux, Linux audio playback software, and Gentoo.

 

[ggking7]

"If you want to go minimalist - use audio playback software that has the capabilities you want, but has minimal dependencies and uses few resources when it is running (maybe even something that uses a CLI rather than a GUI) - this necessitates a degree of familiarity with Linux and the audio playback software available for it."

 

Already-baked is easiest, sure. But it doesn't take much to install what you want on top of the base system. If you want the xfce4 desktop, an mpd server, and gmpc client:

 

emerge xfce4 mpd gmpc

 

It could conceivably be too much for some, but I think most here can handle it.

 

Besides installation, configuration is another consideration. Something that comes fully-configured like the Sonore server is going to be quite a bit easier to get running than configuring things yourself if you don't have much knowledge of the software involved. *Installation* on Gentoo is really easy though.

 

[Jud]

XFCE happens to be my preferred desktop as well. But just for comparison's sake, have a look at the FreeBSD ports page for window managers ( http://www.freebsd.org/ports/x11-wm.html ) and see the dependency list for xfce-4.8 versus the dependency list for fluxbox-1.3.2. Fluxbox is one of the progeny of Blackbox, a minimalist window manager that I (and many other folks) used back in the day.

 

I don't know whether having something minimalist like Fluxbox, or using a CLI vs. GUI interface for mpd (see http://mpd.wikia.com/wiki/Clients ) would make a dang bit of difference to the sound. Maybe Jesus, Demian or someone else has fiddled with this question, I dunno.