What if you CAN'T audition?

[Nerdicus]

Recently I saw a pair of Silverline SR17.5 speakers go for half of their retail price on audiogon. I'm new to both this forum and audiogon, but seeing that they sold in less than 48 hours, and the raving reviews about them lead me to this question... what if you can't audition? For me, I live in Orlando, and the only local dealer has been closed for a year (Absolute Sound). How do those of you more experienced know if some pair of speakers will match your system? I'm setting up my first system and have this possibly paranoid delusion that I'm going to drop $2k on some speakers and find out I'm in trouble.

 

[PeterSt]

Ok, not funny ...

 

But I have said it before ... there's so much difference to this respect with your place and here (say, Netherlands, UK, Germany).

 

What I would dare to do ...

 

Call the nearest dealer, offer him $200 or something for sending you his demos which he has anyway. Of course start with telling that you're all over it in the first place, so it's really not your intention to send them back.

Give him your address and telephone so he can verify a few things, and next pray he sends them but you only paying that $200 at first.

 

Overhere it is the most normal to drag into your car all the gear you want to audition at home, but then distances can hardly be further than some 200 miles. Anyway, within that range you could try that too, after suggesting it by phone.

Ah, so in that case you can audition just the same ? no. I would never do that. Listen to it in your room.

 

One other thing - and a more sneaky one maybe - is suggesting that the dealer visits your place with the gear. That too happens here, and you are told that only in that case all would be setup and connected right (to some extend true). This happens for free (but don't ask me about the margin), but in the end you could offer some money as a bonus.

 

I hope this helps ...

Peter

 

[Paul R]

Try a set of MMGs from Magnepan. $699 with a sixty day return guarantee, and more, if you like 'em but want to upgrade to a higher model, say the 1.7's, they will take 'em back and give you full credit for us to six months.

 

-Paul

 

 

[Jud]

At those prices - and I am quite serious here - call Silverline, ask for a dealer list, and see which of those locations you want to visit for an upcoming vacation.

 

I've had my speakers (not Silverline) for a couple of decades now. Think of not only wasting 2 grand if you turn out not to like the Silverlines, but also not enjoying listening to music for however long it takes you to get together that much spare cash for speakers again.

 

Go out and audition what's available in the same price range at dealers who are reasonably close, then take that vacation to audition the Silverlines and see whether you actually like them better, or something else you've heard.

 

In other words - if you're gonna drop that much cash, don't fixate on one product without even knowing whether you personally like how it sounds. Take some time, listen to everything you can find in your desired price range, then make a decision, comfortable in the knowledge that it's something you're going to keep on enjoying for a while.

 

[4est]

Where I am it is at least 3hrs to the nearest dealer that has anything I would be interested in. I am not sure if I would suggest doing this with speakers (although I have), but I have purchased a lot of gear unheard used on Audiogon. I watch for deals and keep watch on what stuff goes for. Often you can buy it and re sell if it isn't to your taste. As PeterSt noted, it really needs to be in your home, not the dealers.

 

You have got to start somewhere though. If you are not sure what you like, it is best to listen to as much as you can. Local dealers, clubs or even at the homes of people selling items via Audiogon or eBay. Speakers are tough. When you find one that you really like, build your system around them. Later you may shift that emphasis to your source, but at first finding a speaker that does it for you would be my suggestion.

 

[Jud]

Just the way I'm built that I tend to research purchases to death, especially major ones I intend to keep a long time. As I mentioned in my previous reply, it may not even be dropping the money so much as not enjoying what I'm hearing in my own home for however long I'd be stuck with those speakers.

 

For me 3 hours (6 hour round trip) is not so far that I'd consider it out of the question for a $2000 purchase. Probably the opposite. If it was going to take a day anyhow, then I'd likely plan a trip around it. I'm guessing there would be at least a couple of high end dealers in Miami (4 or 5 hours by car from you in Orlando, Nerdicus?) and Tampa (1 1/2 to 2 hours?) with speakers worth auditioning. In fact for the kind of money you're thinking about spending, I'd consider hopping a plane to Miami, maybe take in a Dolphins game during FB season, or just spend time hanging out in South Beach.

 

[4est]

Yes, but your model assumes keeping them, where mine assumes continual upgrades. I so not purchase a lot of new gear, and feel it is unfair to take up a dealer's time if I am not going to buy from them. Remember too, the the OP said he/she cannot audition. I am presenting a path where there is less risk from purchasing unheard.

 

As for my purchases, there are few things that I am interested in that I could get a handle on within a show room. Furthermore, I do not put myself at risk of being stuck listening to anything. I always purchase the replacement while I still have the other item. That way I can directly compare the two. Sometimes I keep it, other times I do not. Either way I have learned something, and it has afforded me the opportunity to hear a lot of kit in my home.

 

As for what one's time is worth, as an attorney I am sure yours is worth more than mine.

 

[Nerdicus]

To clarify slightly, while it would be nice to purchase a pair speakers on par with the SR17.5s I mentioned, I was using them more as an example - it seems audiogon has some great deals, and for someone building a first time system this is ideal. In my mind if you can get more for less, and if the initial depreciation has already taken place, you can turn gear around if needed for frequent upgrades until you find what you want to keep. But the fear remains over buying used or new without auditioning.

 

I considered a trip to Miami, or Tampa, but then I'm not hearing it in my own home as some have already mentioned - although at this point, starting out, ANYTHING would be better.

 

This was just a frustration I realized I had while researching equipment. It's my first build, and when I say first I mean like I'm upgrading from Klipsch 2.1 promedia for the last 10 years on my macbook to REAL audio equipment. I've been reading and researching for the last 4-6 months, and this last week I read The Complete Guide to High-End Audio like a textbook, which brought this frustration to the surface after the section on "System Matching" in the beginning chapters.

 

I think I'm going to try contacting some of the people selling some stuff locally on audiogon, as someone mentioned, and maybe a trip to Tampa/Miami after all.

 

[PeterSt]

Speakers are tough. When you find one that you really like, build your system around them. Later you may shift that emphasis to your source, but at first finding a speaker that does it for you would be my suggestion.

 

I once visited a local store - hunting for speakers. I never was there before. Entered the store at 8pm, knowing it would be closed at 9. The salesman was busy, but told me to be comfortable and I sure would be helped, no matter what.

 

After 9, door was closed and I was handed a beer.

It turned out to be the first of ... I forgot. All I know is that I left at 5 am, on the way home chased by a policecar. No clue still why he picked on me.

haha

I managed to escape, and because of the necessity to park the car as fast as possible in the park at my house, I slammed the door with my lacket half in it, and I decided to tear it off. Left a piece hanging out of the car, knowing that looked risky. Never heard anything of that.

 

During that night I decided for Infinity R90's just because they sounded so great that night.

Next, I spent ONE FULL YEAR to find a matching amp with it. Man, are those difficult speakers (American hehe). In the end I managed, fully satisfied.

 

That salesman became a real friend of mine.

 

Peter

 

 

[Paul R]

Perhaps I am just ignorant... but where the heck are all these great deals on Audiogon?

 

The prices I see in the "specials" section often are equal to the MSRP or, in some cases, higher than the MSRP. And I am not talking about uncommon gear, I am talking about things like Music Streamer II+s and Rega turntables.

 

The ads in the classified section often state things like 'USPS Money Order Only." Like anyone in their right mind would send a postal money order to someone they don't know for a even a few hundred bucks?

 

Yikes! Compared to that, a six hour round trip drive seems very preferable!

At least to me.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

Perhaps I am just ignorant... but where the heck are all these great deals on Audiogon?

 

Depends on what you call a great deal maybe ...

For me that would be that Audiogon is an uncompared trustworthy source for whatever is there (including people's responses / reviews etc.).

 

But maybe I'm wrong on this ?

 

Peter

 

[4est]

I have purchased a lot of gear via Audiogon over the years- gee, I do not even want to think about my feedback rating- yikes... The going rate is what it is. Buy it at that price and you are out mainly shipping plus paypal or what have you. I started out scared as hell, and have worked my way up to purchases in the thousands. There have been a few iffy deals, but mostly great experiences. It sure beats eBay! The thing to watch out for are the items that seem to function, but sound like shit. Look it over carefully and use common sense. You can tell a lot by one's "persona" and attitude.

 

Great story Peter!

 

It would be nice if this site had a for sale section, as people here are quite civil.

 

[barrows]

are the one component that must be heard before purchase. Speakers differ from each other more than any other component, and without hearing them, how are you going to know? Additionally, shipping speakers can be very expensive, so taking risks on purchasing unheard speakers, with the intent to sell them if they do not work for you can be very expensive as well. Do some research, find some brands you might be interested in, and then travel to dealers. Make sure you you call the dealer(s) you intend to visit first, and explain how much effort you are going to-this should get you good treatment. If you have an amp already which you like, ask the dealer if you can bring in your amp to try with the speakers, as speaker/amp matching can make all the difference.

To get a broad sense of the general sound of a lot of different speaker brands, take a trip to an audio show, but do not expect to hear things at their best, show environments are quite difficult to get good sound in. If something does sound good at a show, you can be certain that it will sound good when more care and time is taken on proper set up at home.

 

[4est]

Barrows brings home strong argument that I may have glossed over. The reason speakers are so variable is that they are generally the most compromised. They are (especially with less expensive ones) all about trade offs and what is most important to you. The more you want of everything typically means the more expensive. When budgeting is a factor (and when is it not), one needs to choose. Hence the polarizations of individuals with differing types: Single driver, electrostatic, panels, monitors, horns and three ways. The list goes on and they are mixed and matched enough to confuse anyone. Often though, one finds a type that just seems to do it for them and it is love. At least for awhile.

 

For me it is electrostatics (Quad, Martin Logan, Soundlab) and coaxials (Tannoy, KEF). A good friend of mine hates them both and listens to horn loaded vintage two ways (Altec 820s) that I find abysmal. We agree to disagree, and attempt to be polite about each others system.

 

[Audio_ELF]

Jud commented... At those prices - and I am quite serious here - call Silverline, ask for a dealer list, and see which of those locations you want to visit for an upcoming vacation.

 

That's all very well Jud; but it's not really fair to have a dealer provide you with a demo if you've no intention of purchasing. If you want the bargain prices offered on Audiogon and other (possibly) second hand offerings then you have to take a risk...

 

Eloise

 

[Jud]

which brought this frustration to the surface after the section on "System Matching" in the beginning chapters.

 

System matching is the Devil's yam-bag, man. Don't do it!

 

First of all, it depends on viewing level frequency response as the priority goal of a good music system. Really? When have you ever come out of a concert saying "Wow, loved the singer's mid-bass response," or "Hey, Pavarotti's upper midrange was really nice and level tonight"? It's a point of view that takes you away from the whole reason for having a system, which is enjoying the music. What it accomplishes is to make sure you have a variety of bad frequency characteristics in your system - if your speakers are noticeably too bright, then you must get cables that are bad reproducers in the upper range. Thus you have two bad pieces of equipment, and the sum of the parts is not a good musical experience.

 

Second, even if you felt frequency response was that important to the exclusion of all else, the system matching point of view actually handicaps you in achieving your goal. Without a decent mike and SPL meter at various room locations, there's no way you can tell the answer by ear if your question is, "Does this speaker have a flat frequency response curve?" The *only* way you're going to be able to tell whether the speaker really has a good frequency response is by asking yourself musical rather than lab measurement questions: Does a violin sound like a violin? Does the most familiar "instrument," the human voice, sound natural and expressive?

 

Third, there are many aspects of good sound quality that the system matching point of view totally ignores. One of the most important of these is transient response, whether the "speed" of the system is good enough to reproduce the sudden starts and stops that give real sounds much of their drama. Does the attack of fingers on acoustic guitar strings match what you hear when someone plays live? Do you hear a good solid hit from a bass drum, or is it a dull thud that is hard to tell from electric bass guitar?

 

System matching would tell you that it's OK if a piece of equipment has a consistent 'sound,' as long as another piece of equipment in your system has the opposite 'sound.' No. Different recordings, even different tracks on the same album, sound different. Any piece of equipment that makes them all sound the same is doing important things wrong. Don't buy it. Listen for equipment that produces different sounds on different recordings.

 

So - how close does each piece of your system sound to reality? Listen and select for what is closest to right, not for something that is wrong in the opposite way from another piece.

 

[Jud]

Make sure you you call the dealer(s) you intend to visit first, and explain how much effort you are going to-this should get you good treatment.

 

If it doesn't (and it may not), you know not to buy from that dealer. People who treat your offer to make them hundreds or thousands of dollars of revenue with contempt (and they are legion in all sales, certainly not just audio) do not deserve your time and money.

 

That's all very well Jud; but it's not really fair to have a dealer provide you with a demo if you've no intention of purchasing. If you want the bargain prices offered on Audiogon and other (possibly) second hand offerings then you have to take a risk...

 

That is an excellent point, Eloise. If you want a dealer to treat you with fairness and respect, you will have to reciprocate. That doesn't necessarily mean buying - you may not like the equipment - but it does mean what Eloise says, that it's not fair to take a dealer's time and trouble if you walk into the place with the firm intention not to even consider buying.

 

So there's definitely a choice to be made. I'm at the point now where I've heard such a variety of equipment over so many years that I can pretty well say I will like equipment from certain manufacturers or designers, so I could take advantage of Audiogon for some equipment. (One of these days I *will* have the money to spare for a lightly used Spectral amp.) But for you, just starting out in high end without a lot of background, I (as you can probably tell) would tend to side with barrows, and say that with speakers you'd want to hear a variety, and you can probably only do that by going to dealers.

 

[catastrofe]

Tampa is only 45 minutes from Orlando, so I'd start there first. If it's still in business, check out Audio Visions South.

 

[Canhead]

Make your way to Gainesville anytime soon... Try Sound Ideas. They have usually 10 to 20 sets in full rigs in their showroom from 5 to 7 manufacturers. I personally live in Lake City, FL myself and have no way to buy music much less any quality gear. That's right, let ,me repeat myself, NO MUSIC STORE. It wont be a wasted trip for sure and no I do not work for them.

 

[barrows]

I am confused what you are responding to regarding your post on system matching? I do not think anybody here mentioned anything about frequency response? Regarding my comments of playing one's amp with a given set of speaker to be sure though do play well together, I am not talking about getting a pleasing tonal situation going. Many speakers present highly reactive, complicated loads to the output stage of an amplifier, and many amplifiers vary greatly in how they respond to different loading. Without playing the speakers one is considering with the amplifier intended to power them, it really is not possible to know how they are going to sound.

It would be nice if all speakers presented an entirely benign, purely resistive load, with 100 dB efficiency and all amplifiers had 0 ohm output impedance over an unlimited bandwidth, and infinite current delivery, but this is just not the case. Some very good amps, and some very good speakers just will simply not play well together, especially if the listener likes to play music at higher levels.

 

[Nerdicus]

I've been watching for at min 4 months and knowning NOTHING of what high end audio is, I'd say watching SR17.5s going for $1660, and occasional Von Schweikert's for half retail as well is a pretty good deal. But you are correct, many of the 'deals' are no greater than MSRP and are from shops getting rid of demos, inventory, etc.

 

At least that's been my observation for awhile - and I mean like serious observation. I only work 3 days a week, the rest of the time I've been reading and research audio equip.

 

[firedog]

I've bought and sold on Audiogon. Including stuff that sold for several thousand. The used stuff there typically goes for about half of retail, which is a good deal - especially if you are getting something you could never afford otherwise. There are also dealers selling demo equipment with warranty, at significantly below retail.

 

Yes, there's are risks. Here's how I minimize them: I ask the seller several questions, about the equipment and about shipping. Even if I don't have any. They way they answer gives you a clue about what kind of seller they are.

 

A couple of times I've worked out with the seller and manufacturer that the manufacturer will receive the piece and check it out for me and reship it to me. Most are willing to do this for a modest fee (say $50, not including shipping), as it preserves both a valuable secondary market for their products, and their own reputation (no junk equipment floating around).

 

The good thing about Audiogon is that if you buy something and decide you don't want it, you can just turn around and resell it. Often at no significant loss.

 

Third, use only credit cards or even better, PayPal. Audiogon, PayPal, and CC companies all have some level of protection built in, and have dispute resolution services. That way you have some protection if you are ripped off. Don't buy anything from anyone who insists on something like a money order, which from your point of view is like giving the seller cash.

 

[Jud]

I do not think anybody here mentioned anything about frequency response? Regarding my comments of playing one's amp with a given set of speaker to be sure though do play well together, I am not talking about getting a pleasing tonal situation going.

 

You're correct. I was referring to the way "system matching" is sometimes used (or implied, when people recommend certain equipment to go with certain other equipment on the basis of frequency response characteristics) in other threads here, very often in the high end press, and very often by dealers. I find it's used more often in that sense than it is in the sense you're talking about. (Or perhaps that's just my impression because it's a pet peeve - could you tell?

 

Many speakers present highly reactive, complicated loads to the output stage of an amplifier, and many amplifiers vary greatly in how they respond to different loading.... Some very good amps, and some very good speakers just will simply not play well together, especially if the listener likes to play music at higher levels.

 

Very true - though with "box" speakers you can often get a very good idea if there will be any problem from the specs. When you start to get into panels - electrostats, Maggies, etc. - or other non-typical configurations, there's where you want to be particularly careful. It is often difficult to drive panels, especially smaller ones intended to be full range, to concert listening levels. I've heard Quad ESLs sounding wonderful, but I could never have them for some of the listening I do at home.

 

[4est]

If you were put off by Quad's limitations, you may want to audition them with the Gradient subs (open baffle double 12s) intended for the 63s. It may just change your mind about them. When you relieve them of the bottom octave, their output increases greatly while keeping most of the good qualities.

 

In general, electrostatic speakers are a hard load as they are essentially a big capacitor. The power requirements are in the highs, not the lows. Magnepans are a fairly benign load, but they like power. With horns or high eff single driver (lowthers), it is all about the first watt and single ended to avoid class AB distortions. Horses for courses is why you pick the speaker, then an amp to drive them.

 

[Jud]

I'm not on the lookout for speakers, though. I've had most of my equipment for ~20 years and like it very much. I tend to upgrade only when there's some improvement in technology I'd like to take advantage of (which is why I'm taking a shot at replacing my old Theta DAC with the new Schiit Bifrost DAC from the same designer).

 

The electrical load on electrostats may get more difficult in the treble, but the physical requirements for moving air mean panels in general have to make greater excursions to produce bass. The louder the bass, the more difficult it is to control the excursions. A sizable panel will move enough air, but smaller panels like the Quads may have problems. Thus the subs or bass modules, but then you run into the problem I have with non-full-range Martin Logans. They generally sound very nice, but there is material where you can hear the difference in transient response and decay between panels (lightning-fast response and near-instant transient decay) and cones (very fast response if well-designed, very good decay if well-designed and connected to the right amp).