What is Immersive Audio?

[JoeWhip]

There is no doubt that immersive audio at least via Atmos or Auro3D is a hard sell to many 2Channel audiophiles. Having recently hosted a meeting of our local audio group, there were those that loved Atmos but even then, you heard the same old same old about more speakers,  amps, etc.  I am fortunate to be able to have two separate rooms one for 2 channel the other for MC. I try to argue that great results can be had with MC with AVRs and less expensive speakers and room correction, but acknowledge it can be tough to integrate into an existing 2 channel set up. Andy Quint has always been a backer of MC as long as ai have known him. Andy has always been ahead of the curve on that front.

[STC]

Not all would want to admit they were wrong all these years.

[JoeWhip]

Hopefully younger audiophiles will help drive the immersive market, although I had one tell me it will remain a niche market. Clearly there is more work to do.

[STC]

21 minutes ago, ARQuint said:

That would be wonderful and I'm sure the possibility interests Dr. Choueiri—he loves challenges.

Not much challenges there. It has been already established but probably the software/hardwares limit the option for BACCH. The options already discussed before but pre ATMOS and Aura 3D era. The principle is the same. Focus on the stereo layers only for XTC.

 

 

19 minutes ago, ARQuint said:

Which is what I'm getting (9 AM and 3 PM) - and sometimes with non-dummy head recordings.

 

I read from other users that was their perception too but my experience is that not many stereo have more than 60 degrees width or intended to be more than 60 degrees width. You can have width stage XTC but is that what the creator intended?

[STC]

56 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Hopefully younger audiophiles will help drive the immersive market, although I had one tell me it will remain a niche market. Clearly there is more work to do.

I think this will remain a niche market. For MC to sound good it requires some calibration but many just don’t have the time or resources for that.  I have seen so many HT system where the place the rear speakers with the FS because they cannot afford to put it behind due to inconvenience. 
 

Furthermore, for youngsters they prefer the spatial sound of Apple or Sony360 or Samsung 360 audio. No need to sit upright in a confined space. In fact, even I don’t listen to my system and only pay some attention when visitors come over for a listening session. 
 

For most, music is the melody and rhythm not so much of spatial accuracy. 

[JoeWhip]

Truth be told, for many, music is just background music, not for serious listening.

[fas42]

For me, music reproduction has to work even when I'm away from the action, and am totally involved in some other activity - as a scenario, consider an orchestra going for it in a rehearsal room, and in a corridor next to it a cleaner is mopping the floor, and hears the musicians thundering away, through an open doorway - close to zero direct sound. Yet, the power, texture and drive of the music would be absolutely riveting to that individual - is it serious listening? No. Is it background music? No. It's an example of the ability of music to make an intense impact on your senses, even when you're otherwise engaged. And that's what a well organised recording reproduction set up should do, no matter the configuration of the components that make it up ...

[Archimago]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:26 PM, STC said:

Thank you @Archimago . Glad the post is worthy of your attention. 
 

Although I support multichannel sound, I have reservations about the commercialization of music that deviates from the realism of live performances. While the sound can be initially impressive, the artificial placement of instruments around us can feel unnatural to those accustomed to the frontal audio scene of concert hall performances.

 

Hey there @STC, I hear ya about the use of multichannel and artificiality.

 

However, for me, most of the genres I enjoy (pop, rock, techno, R&B) are synthetic studio productions anyways and so long as the artists and studio engineers do it tastefully, I honestly am pleased by the surround results. As with any recording, there are many poor examples out there...

 

For acoustic and live recordings meant to be natural, for sure, it's should not be overly processed.

[Archimago]

On 8/27/2023 at 5:09 PM, ARQuint said:

 

If, Arch, by "old guard", you mean the two print magazines you love to dump on, you've missed a lot of page-inches. Kal Rubinson, in Stereophile, and I, in The Absolute Sound, have been writing extensively about multichannel gear and recordings for more than 20 years, long before Chris developed his current (well-placed) enthusiasms. There was also this guy who wrote mostly for S but also for TAS at the end of his career (maybe you've heard of him—Gordon someone-or-other) who was championing earlier surround formats long before that. There were others. But if you start with a dismissive view of certain publications (not to mention civilian  audiophiles who have been around for a while) you'll tailor the facts to fit your sneering contempt. Not unlike Donald Trump and his references to "the failing New York Times."

When you're operating in your usual scientific work environment and an accurate representation of what's been said or written before matters, I'm pretty sure your review of earlier literature is more rigorous and thoughtful than it was this time.

Best

Andy Quint

 

Hey there @ARQuint, what do you mean by "a lot of page-inches"?

 

Glad that you and for sure I know that Kal have be interested in multichannel for awhile. And indeed Gordon was enthusiastic about multichannel during the SACD/DVD-A advent but he's been gone since 2009 (not sure when he last penned an article on multichannel).

 

So what articles in Stereophile or TAS recently since the start of Apple Music and Atmos (mid-2021) have been published to inform audiophiles of the developments? Have there been articles explaining to audiophiles how to listen to the thousands of recordings already out there? Any "As We See It"-type editorials to explain the shift in technology and maybe get audiophiles thinking about the next wave of multichannel audio in TAS? Any articles to get audiophiles thinking about how multichannel might be able to play a role in enhancing playback fidelity in the 2020's?

 

I hate to say it, but it has to be said. Why is it that articles like these about MQA - here, here, here - are so easy to find but we basically find nothing when we plug in "The Absolute Sound Atmos" on Google? A few more hits with "Stereophile Atmos" from Kal but still small. Certainly not "page-inches".

 

And when we do see articles on Atmos - like this one in Stereophile (Jim Austin), it's at best lukewarm. And IMO the conclusion totally misses the mark:

Quote

Apple Music's embrace of Dolby Atmos offers listeners an interesting alternative to traditional stereo. It also offers hope for long-suffering multichannel music fans: Kal Rubinson will render his verdict as soon as he's had a good listen. But, for the existing music catalog, this alternative perspective must remain just that: alternative. Regardless of what Apple says, the company's big news isn't Atmos but going lossless and hi-rez. New is good, but the vast historical archive of recorded music must be respected.

 

No. The big news was Atmos (multichannel), NOT Apple going lossless or offering hi-res (as I discussed at the time)! And what's the deal about "historical archive of recorded music must be respected"? [Surely it must always be OK for an artist to go back and rework mixes for example.]

 

As for TAS. This is all I found for a recent multichannel article from you - a review of Pink Floyd's Animals (May 2023). In this article, you said:

Quote

The number of music-only surround releases has diminished substantially since the SACD’s heyday, but there’s still a steady, if slower, stream of new immersive mixes to consider.

 

Isn't that inaccurate and puts a downer on audiophiles who might be interested but not up to date on what's actually available? Since SACD's heyday, music-only surround has exploded through multichannel streaming. We're able to hear tracks these days of artists we could not before because of the moves that Apple and others have made to get stuff remixed and encoded. There are already tens of thousands of tracks available in Atmos on Apple Music.

 

Is my critical review here inaccurate of Stereophile or TAS and their remarkably weak treatment of multichannel audio? Is it too much of a "dismissive view"? Perhaps I'm wrong and you guys are champions of multichannel and Atmos... Perhaps you can show me some links from TAS where you've discussed Atmos (or multichannel) and its value to audiophiles with any detail.

 

Please, do not mention Trump to me; why are you getting political, man? All I can say as a Canadian is that there truly must be options better than Biden and Trump for 2024 - please... But that doesn't mean S and T aren't failing audiophiles by not providing good investigative journalism which of course has been a general criticism I maintain about the "old guard" magazines.

[JoeWhip]

Stereophile and TAS are primarily about 2 channel. I do not think we will see that much coverage of Atmos and Immersive until that direction comes from on high. Hopefully that will come but nonetheless we will do what we can here!

[Archimago]

13 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

Stereophile and TAS are primarily about 2 channel. I do not think we will see that much coverage of Atmos and Immersive until that direction comes from on high. Hopefully that will come but nonetheless we will do what we can here!

 

Yup, I agree. They're mainly stereo publications, and that to me is fine because for the foreseeable future, most music consumption will be 2-channels in nature.

 

What I find disappointing though is that the magazines seem to just be doing the bidding of the industry IMO. Unless there is a product sent to review or some nonsense like MQA to write about because it's targeted at audiophiles (who knows with what kind of marketing dollars attached), we rarely get articles beyond these limits.

 

IMO, it's about the role the magazines have in this audiophile ecosystem. Beyond product promotion, are they trying to educate audiophiles? Are they reaching out to explore new trends and technologies that audiophiles might want in their homes? I think only by doing these things can we expand the frontiers of high-fidelity and promote growth - like the importance of DSP, and multichannel / surround / immersive sound. I'm not saying devoting the whole magazine to these things, but at least not be downers on "new" technologies or defensive of 2-channel which has been with us commercially since 1960. Maybe once awhile have an independent article.

 

Otherwise, the magazines and hobby I think will end up focusing on stagnant anachronistic tech (like yet more tube amps, LP) or worse, things that make no meaningful difference (yet another $1000 USB cable?). This is pretty well where we're at for awhile now I think!

 

Anyhow, some independent thought, curiosity, and technologically-focused articles in the magazines would be nice. A little bit of soul-searching and imagination about the future of audio would be nice. And at the very least, IMO, some down-to-earth intro to the benefits of multichannel (again) with the new generations of audio listeners might be somewhat refreshing...

 

Since customer demand drives development, perhaps the leadership role of magazines (and forums, and blogs, and YouTube channels) is to open up these discussions and if consumers become interested, it will further lead us down the path of even more products to review utilizing newer technologies. There is perhaps a "virtuous cycle" here untapped - just like the thousands and thousands of Atmos music on the streaming sites already available that audiophiles currently are not hearing!

[JoeWhip]

I agree Arch but old habits die hard. There are opportunities for equipment reviews of higher priced HT stuff like Trinnov, but I do not see reviews of really high performing kit like Anthem or Denon and the like. Hopefully we will see some great articles from. Kal and from Andy once his Atmos system is up and running. I look forward to driving down to hear it. 

[STC]

It is unlikely that they would want to willingly promote something that is objective and leaves little room for subjective authoritarianism. It proves all the so called reviews of equipments of stereo playback could reconstruct the live event in their living room with a change of cables or Amp could hardly be anywhere near to a well setup ATMOS . 
 

The post here says it all. 
 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/32135-beyond-stereo/?do=findComment&comment=691876

 

 

[JoeWhip]

Ah, AJ, a classic.

[Kal Rubinson]

4 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

Hopefully we will see some great articles from. Kal and from Andy once his Atmos system is up and running. I look forward to driving down to hear it. 

In the past, I did Atmos mostly at my weekend place but we have recently sold it.   I hope to renew my acquaintance with and coverage of ATMOS in a few months after we complete major apartment renovations. 

[JoeWhip]

Looking forward to it Kal.

[shum3s]

On 8/28/2023 at 4:01 AM, STC said:

Not all would want to admit they were wrong all these years.

Why do you need to framed those who get immense enjoyment from their two channel system as being “wrong after all these years”?  And what’s the need to evangelized the two channel crowd to covert to immersive audio? Using words like “old guard”  “ authoritarianism” dose not seem a positive way to influence others to have an open mind in the different ways we listening  to music. Speaking of politics, the way the conversation heats up  between two channel and immersive audio proponents, is no different between the Right and the Left- you’re wrong I am right!  Why?   
    I would encourage both sides to have an open mind and to promote civility.  Reading AS has been one way to escape the divisions in society. 

    Sam 

[fas42]

People need to be tribal ... part of the human condition. Which is why we do you beaut things like invading neighbouring countries, and killing people and smashing things up; until everyone is worn out, and calls it a day ... and then, slowly, a few people start getting fidgety again - and the pattern repeats ... gosh, it's good to be human!

 

Back in the land of audio, a simple overview is that two channel can deliver "immersive", but the volume has to be wound up to do that. Which in most rigs reveals too many inadequacies and shortfalls in capability, of the gear used, and it's too uncomfortable. A good workaround is to use a lot more channels, speakers and amps, sharing the load; can be fiddled a million ways, to get exactly what you want, as a listening experience. Both work ... use which suits your particular POV ...

[STC]

4 hours ago, shum3s said:

Why do you need to framed those who get immense enjoyment from their two channel system……

Individual preference and satisfaction is not an issue here. You can even get immense enjoyment with a simple mono, gramophone or a transistor radio. It is about the way and resistance stereophiles downgraded other attempts of sound reproduction due to their own ignorance and inability. 
 

If you want advancement in the technology then we need consumer support. MC/immersive sound is a hard sell to the masses. The only reason why we are having discussion about spatial and ATMOS now is not because of HT or audiophiles but because billions of smart phone users and headphones. 
 

Audiophile meant to be someone who cares about SQ and the reproduction of the original sound event and we should have been the front runners to the evolution and advancement but we are catching up to the trend set by average music lovers who knew more about sound then the two channel believers because they believe we only need two ears and therefore perfection could be achieved with that. 
 

The language may sound harsh but you have no idea of the ridicule and false narratives of what others endured when they deviated from the long held path of 2 channels. These guys advocated so strongly against DSP but the XTC like BACCH or ATMOS will not be possible without it. I can go one about CD and PC digital audio development. Just look up what Linn used to say about digital sound. Who came up with stepped curve of digital waves reconstruction?

 

 

Perhaps, it is easier for you to see where and why there’s so much differences if you start to look up the reasons for the disappearance of  tone and treble control from the amplifiers. Now the same advocates are reviewing room correction softwares. So much of misinformation and no one was there to correct them. Thanks to internet and now slowly a few beginning to see the light. Cables can create holographic soundstage???! I bet not one immersive sound sound inventor would said that. 😂

 

[ARQuint]

On 8/28/2023 at 8:27 PM, Archimago said:

 

Hey there @ARQuint, what do you mean by "a lot of page-inches"?

 

Glad that you and for sure I know that Kal have be interested in multichannel for awhile. And indeed Gordon was enthusiastic about multichannel during the SACD/DVD-A advent but he's been gone since 2009 (not sure when he last penned an article on multichannel).

 

So what articles in Stereophile or TAS recently since the start of Apple Music and Atmos (mid-2021) have been published to inform audiophiles of the developments? Have there been articles explaining to audiophiles how to listen to the thousands of recordings already out there? Any "As We See It"-type editorials to explain the shift in technology and maybe get audiophiles thinking about the next wave of multichannel audio in TAS? Any articles to get audiophiles thinking about how multichannel might be able to play a role in enhancing playback fidelity in the 2020's?

 

I hate to say it, but it has to be said. Why is it that articles like these about MQA - here, here, here - are so easy to find but we basically find nothing when we plug in "The Absolute Sound Atmos" on Google? A few more hits with "Stereophile Atmos" from Kal but still small. Certainly not "page-inches".

 

And when we do see articles on Atmos - like this one in Stereophile (Jim Austin), it's at best lukewarm. And IMO the conclusion totally misses the mark:

 

No. The big news was Atmos (multichannel), NOT Apple going lossless or offering hi-res (as I discussed at the time)! And what's the deal about "historical archive of recorded music must be respected"? [Surely it must always be OK for an artist to go back and rework mixes for example.]

 

As for TAS. This is all I found for a recent multichannel article from you - a review of Pink Floyd's Animals (May 2023). In this article, you said:

 

Isn't that inaccurate and puts a downer on audiophiles who might be interested but not up to date on what's actually available? Since SACD's heyday, music-only surround has exploded through multichannel streaming. We're able to hear tracks these days of artists we could not before because of the moves that Apple and others have made to get stuff remixed and encoded. There are already tens of thousands of tracks available in Atmos on Apple Music.

 

Is my critical review here inaccurate of Stereophile or TAS and their remarkably weak treatment of multichannel audio? Is it too much of a "dismissive view"? Perhaps I'm wrong and you guys are champions of multichannel and Atmos... Perhaps you can show me some links from TAS where you've discussed Atmos (or multichannel) and its value to audiophiles with any detail.

 

Please, do not mention Trump to me; why are you getting political, man? All I can say as a Canadian is that there truly must be options better than Biden and Trump for 2024 - please... But that doesn't mean S and T aren't failing audiophiles by not providing good investigative journalism which of course has been a general criticism I maintain about the "old guard" magazines.

 

Hello again, Arch

 

• I don't have many links to most of the features and multichannel music reviews I've written for TAS over the years, as the magazine only publishes online a small percentage of the material appearing in the print magazine. But here's a list of some I can remember:

 

The Democratization of the High End

(Editorial)

 

A Great Multichannel Experiment

(Editorial)

 

"It's the Multichannel, Stupid"

(Editorial)

 

In Pursuit of the Multichannel Download

 (Feature)

 

Two Concert Halls in Florida: Peter McGrath's MC orchestral recordings in several Florida Halls

 (Feature)

 

Multichannel Gets Taller

 (Feature)

   Coverage of a demo of a 5.1.4 system with the musician (Ozark Henry) present   

 

A feature about spatial music by Edgar Choueiri (with Lauri Anderson) will be appearing in the magazine before the end of the year.

 

Equipment reviews

  Theoretica Applied Physics BACCH-SP (https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/theoretica-applied-  physics-bacch-sp-adio-stereo-purifier/)

  (See below)

 

 Audiopraise VanityPRO multichannel HDMI extractor

Coming soon

 

 

Dozens of reviews of multichannel recordings

 At first, these were gathered in a part of the music section called "New Formats" and then as "Multichannel Marvels." Subsequently, music reviews were no longer segregated by format, and for more than a decade, MC recordings have been mixed in with Redbook CDs, vinyl, etc.

 

Multichannel Seminar at RMAF 2018

 I moderated a session where Kal and Brian Moura (Native DSD) were the panelists.

 

• I want to re-emphasize that the goal for me is to explore ways to represent spatiality as it's experienced in life without limiting myself to one approach.  So, excited as I will be to have Atmos up and running at home within a month, I feel the jury is out when it comes to Atmos, especially with classical music. Utilizing XTC to achieve a life-like dimensionality from two speakers is very much part of the discussion. Note that I don't fault Chris one bit for not having anything to say about BACCH. An individual writer or publication can't be everywhere at once and I don't declare CC to be disinterested in immersive audio because he hasn’t had much to say about BACCH.

 

• Finally, the Donald Trump reference is not political.  For me, "political" speech involves actual issues where there are differences of opinion—reproductive health, military spending, border policy, student loan forgiveness, etc. What Trump does day in and day out is to say things that he knows are false (or should know) and says them enough so that they start to register as true, at least for a certain constituency. So, DT implies that the New York Times is "failing" when it isn't; Archimago implies that TAS and Stereophile are disinterested in multichannel because they are "old guard" publications, which is also a false narrative.

 

But this part of the discussion should be completely unnecessary. All of us participating in this forum are multichannel enthusiasts, eager to see where things go with recording technologies, playback, musical content, and the growing of the audience. Nothing seems to agitate a certain kind of AS reader more but I'll say it again: We're all on the same team.

 

Andy Quint

 

 

[Confused]

Some interesting posts and debate here. As for myself, I do not have any strong views regarding immersive audio or the 2 channel versus multi channel debate. The simple reason for this is a lack of experience. I have heard a couple of multi channel / Atmos demos at shows, with unfamiliar music and systems, which was fun, but that is about it.

 

This situation is about to change though. Recently I have upgraded the AV amplifier in my system to an Atmos capable amp. I have done this not due to a desire for immersive audio listening, but for the specific purpose of watching movies together with the ever increasingly available Atmos sound track.

 

The AV amp is a Denon X4800, selected specifically because it is Dirac Full Range capable. Speakers are all KEF, but various models, so having Dirac capability seemed like a good idea to me. I am also using multiple external amps, currently only the height speakers are running directly from the Denon amp.

 

Anyway, movies apart, I now have a system that can be used for immersive audio. Effectively "cost free" with respect to immersive audio listening, as I am happy to spend the money specifically for movie sound. The Denon HEOS streaming system does not work with Apple Music, which is a shame, but is compatible with Amazon Music, Tidal, and others. So not ideal, but it is something that will work.

 

The current status is that the basic system is set-up, although I am still playing with settings and fine tuning speaker positioning, and making a few changes in the room. Performing the Dirac set-up will follow when I have the time. 

 

Not withstanding the above, I do now have a working Atmos system which sounds pretty good with movies. I also have a copy of Kraftwork 3D with Atmos, and I have managed to borrow a copy of the latest Atmos Blu-ray version of DSOTM.

 

Hence this weekend will mark my first home listening of an "immersive audio" album.

 

Will I become an immersive convert? Will I not like it? I have no idea, but I will give it a go to find out for myself. This might be the start of an interesting journey.

[JoeWhip]

Atmos music was the icing on the cake as I originally got it for movie playback. I would respectfully suggest that you check out an Apple TV+. The 2021 unit if you can. The apps there work better than the apps in my TV and will get you access to Apple Music and their Atmos selections.

[Confused]

20 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

Atmos music was the icing on the cake as I originally got it for movie playback. I would respectfully suggest that you check out an Apple TV+. The 2021 unit if you can. The apps there work better than the apps in my TV and will get you access to Apple Music and their Atmos selections.

Do you specifically recommend the 2021 unit because the later version drops the Ethernet connection from some models? Or is there something else?  

[JoeWhip]

People who I know and trust in the business have taken the units apart and feel the circuitry was cheapened in the new units. I grabbed one on Amazon a few months ago. And yes, get one with Ethernet connectivity especially for 4K content. They are really amazing devices.

[Archimago]

On 8/31/2023 at 3:41 AM, ARQuint said:

 

Hello again, Arch

 

• I don't have many links to most of the features and multichannel music reviews I've written for TAS over the years, as the magazine only publishes online a small percentage of the material appearing in the print magazine. But here's a list of some I can remember:

 

The Democratization of the High End

(Editorial)

 

A Great Multichannel Experiment

(Editorial)

 

"It's the Multichannel, Stupid"

(Editorial)

 

In Pursuit of the Multichannel Download

 (Feature)

 

Two Concert Halls in Florida: Peter McGrath's MC orchestral recordings in several Florida Halls

 (Feature)

 

Multichannel Gets Taller

 (Feature)

   Coverage of a demo of a 5.1.4 system with the musician (Ozark Henry) present   

 

A feature about spatial music by Edgar Choueiri (with Lauri Anderson) will be appearing in the magazine before the end of the year.

 

Equipment reviews

  Theoretica Applied Physics BACCH-SP (https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/theoretica-applied-  physics-bacch-sp-adio-stereo-purifier/)

  (See below)

 

 Audiopraise VanityPRO multichannel HDMI extractor

Coming soon

 

 

Dozens of reviews of multichannel recordings

 At first, these were gathered in a part of the music section called "New Formats" and then as "Multichannel Marvels." Subsequently, music reviews were no longer segregated by format, and for more than a decade, MC recordings have been mixed in with Redbook CDs, vinyl, etc.

 

Multichannel Seminar at RMAF 2018

 I moderated a session where Kal and Brian Moura (Native DSD) were the panelists.

 

• I want to re-emphasize that the goal for me is to explore ways to represent spatiality as it's experienced in life without limiting myself to one approach.  So, excited as I will be to have Atmos up and running at home within a month, I feel the jury is out when it comes to Atmos, especially with classical music. Utilizing XTC to achieve a life-like dimensionality from two speakers is very much part of the discussion. Note that I don't fault Chris one bit for not having anything to say about BACCH. An individual writer or publication can't be everywhere at once and I don't declare CC to be disinterested in immersive audio because he hasn’t had much to say about BACCH.

 

• Finally, the Donald Trump reference is not political.  For me, "political" speech involves actual issues where there are differences of opinion—reproductive health, military spending, border policy, student loan forgiveness, etc. What Trump does day in and day out is to say things that he knows are false (or should know) and says them enough so that they start to register as true, at least for a certain constituency. So, DT implies that the New York Times is "failing" when it isn't; Archimago implies that TAS and Stereophile are disinterested in multichannel because they are "old guard" publications, which is also a false narrative.

 

But this part of the discussion should be completely unnecessary. All of us participating in this forum are multichannel enthusiasts, eager to see where things go with recording technologies, playback, musical content, and the growing of the audience. Nothing seems to agitate a certain kind of AS reader more but I'll say it again: We're all on the same team.

 

Andy Quint

Nice selection of articles Andy. Happy to stand corrected. Would be great to see more of these online at some point to get a better sense of your perspective. That would certainly help open up the perception of the technologies embraced by audiophiles these days.

 

Looking forward to future articles from Stereophile and TAS on this topic once you and Kal have the systems up and running. 

 

BACCH is interesting as is the potential of AC4-IMS "Immersive Stereo".