“Gaming” measurements

[fas42]

31 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Thats not what you are hearing Frank., but I think we already knkew about your "unusual" interpretations 😉

 

Still waiting for the details of the track, please ...

[March Audio]

19 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Still waiting for the details of the track, please ...

Its in the post above

 

Frank, I take it you have heard of the "cocktail party effect"?  Where in a noisy party your brain can focus on the sounds/voices you want to and separate them out of the noise.

 

Well apply that general concept to what you are hearing when you listen to music.  Your brain has an amazing ability (to an extent) to separate out the room, the reflected sounds, from the direct sound from the speakers..  When you record that sound with mics and replay it over speakers most of the cues that your brain uses to perform this "filtering" are lost.  Thats why it sounds so different to actually being there.    You hear all the ambience of the room with the recording.  What you interpreted as "the sound falling apart" at higher levels was just the increasingly complex sound field in the room, something your brain copes with when actually in the room.  Thats why you have to use miking techniques to deliver amore realistic sound - close miking etc, but that also changes the sound in different ways compared to what you would hear live in the room.

 

Do you think those recordings represented an accurate picture of what you would hear live in the room?

[opus101]

29 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Well apply that general concept to what you are hearing when you listen to music.  Your brain has an amazing ability (to an extent) to separate out the room, the reflected sounds, from the direct sound from the speakers..  When you record that sound with mics and replay it over speakers most of the cues that your brain uses to perform this "filtering" are lost.  Thats why it sounds so different to actually being there.    You hear all the ambience of the room with the recording. 

 

What you're describing there is poor playback quality, not something lost by virtue of microphones and recording. I'm with Frank on this - the cues are still there just needs a better playback system and then its a doddle for the brain to separate the recorded acoustic from the instruments therein.

 

The system that I heard which did the separation thing better than anything else was a relatively modest (by their standards) MBL system. Those omni speakers acted as holographic projectors giving a 'walk-in' stereo presentation which was quite remarkable. All with a normal recording.

[March Audio]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Still waiting for the details of the track, please ...

I touched on the miking techniques above.  Just to expand on that.  One of the major things you hear in the recordings I posted is the sound of the room, the reverberation which you dont hear if there.  The usual microphone technique to reduce this are to use directional cardiod mics (the mics used were cardiod, if they were omni directional the issues would be much, much worse), or to use mic placement very close to the instrument so the direct sound is much louder than the reflected ambient sound reducing its impact.

 

However this also causes problems.  If you are listening to an instrument, say a spanish guitar, at a distance lets say 3 to 4 metres, the level of the high frequency harmonics will be reduced.  You will also have reflections and absorptions from surfaces around you.  This will also be affected by the directionality of the sound from the instrument. This creates a particular sound and timbre.  Thats what you hear.  If you place the mic there it will sound echoey and reverberant as we have seen.

 

If you place the mic on, or right in front of the instrument you will have increased high frequency energy.  Also mics exhibit a thing called proximity effect where the low frequency response increases with reducing distance.  The impact of reflections will be different, it will be lower in relative level (the instrument is much louder) and different in time.  So with close miking the timbre of the instrument has changed compared to what you would hear in the audience.

 

So its always a compromise and a subjective decision made by the recording engineer/producer/artist.  Microphones dont hear what you hear, they dont have your brain attached.  This is why I say that recordings are only ever a facsimile. They never capture an actual accurate experience of being there.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

Its in the post above

 

The title and performers of the music; surely this is obviously what I'm after ...

 

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

Frank, I take it you have heard of the "cocktail party effect"?  Where in a noisy party your brain can focus on the sounds/voices you want to and separate them out of the noise.

 

Yes, have mentioned it often.

 

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

Well apply that general concept to what you are hearing when you listen to music.  Your brain has an amazing ability (to an extent) to separate out the room, the reflected sounds, from the direct sound from the speakers..  When you record that sound with mics and replay it over speakers most of the cues that your brain uses to perform this "filtering" are lost.  Thats why it sounds so different to actually being there.    You hear all the ambience of the room with the recording.  What you interpreted as "the sound falling apart" at higher levels was just the increasingly complex sound field in the room, something your brain copes with when actually in the room.  Thats why you have to use miking techniques to deliver amore realistic sound - close miking etc, but that also changes the sound in different ways compared to what you would hear live in the room.

 

Do you think those recordings represented an accurate picture of what you would hear live in the room?

 

I think what you recorded was the sound of your system, faults included - as Richard, opus101, says, when a system gets it right, you know about it ...

[fas42]

1 hour ago, opus101 said:

 

The system that I heard which did the separation thing better than anything else was a relatively modest (by their standards) MBL system. Those omni speakers acted as holographic projectors giving a 'walk-in' stereo presentation which was quite remarkable. All with a normal recording.

 

I got back in the audio game when I heard the top of the line MBL system, at the time, nail the presentation like this. It demonstrated that progress had been made - and that 'ambitious' designs and setups at either end of the cost spectrum could pull it off.

[March Audio]

36 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

The title and performers of the music; surely this is obviously what I'm after ...

 

 

Yes, have mentioned it often.

 

 

I think what you recorded was the sound of your system, faults included - as Richard, opus101, says, when a system gets it right, you know about it ...

Then you would be wrong. If you cant hear that a recording of a speaker in a room sounds nothing like hearing it live in person then all hope is lost Frank.  It might explain why you spend so much time faffing around with your system doing irrelevant things and going nowhere.

 

Opus is on ignore, no interest in his comments.

 

As stated in the earlier post the track is "You'll Never Get To Heaven" by Bill Morrissey.

[fas42]

38 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Then you would be wrong. If you cant hear that a recording of a speaker in a room sounds nothing like hearing it live in person then all hope is lost Frank.  It might explain why you spend so much time faffing around with your system doing irrelevant things and going nowhere.

 

Opus is on ignore, no interest in his comments.

 

As stated in the earlier post the track is "You'll Never Get To Heaven" by Bill Morrison.

 

Thanks, sorry, missed seeing that in the earlier mention of such.

 

This is the track,

 

 

Good recording, no problems with the band coming in, on the original ... what I'll do is download a YouTube version of this, burn it to CD-R, play it on my Edifiers; and record what it produces in the room, with a cheap mobile phone - and upload here. This will demonstrate what I'm looking for, in playback ...

[March Audio]

5 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Thanks, sorry, missed seeing that in the earlier mention of such.

This is the track,

 

Good recording, no problems with the band coming in, on the original ... what I'll do is download a YouTube version of this, burn it to CD-R,.play it on my Edifiers; and record what it produces in the room, with a cheap mobile phone - and upload here. This will demonstrate what I'm looking for, in playback ...

 

?

 

You do understand that placing microphones in a room is not the same as listening to the original?

 

Perhaps not.

 

I cant wait to hear what it sounds like.  Make sure you put your phone several metres away from the speakers.

[fas42]

Will be a couple of days - as mentioned in the speakers thread, at the moment the on/off switch area is being butchered, by me - too many bare metal contacts - and bare wires are dangling, right now 🙂. Should be put together, shortly ...

[PeterSt]

4 hours ago, opus101 said:

So when someone posts something erroneous

 

Yea, but if that someone is God, it is not allowed to nag about it.

[manueljenkin]

3 hours ago, March Audio said:

Well apply that general concept to what you are hearing when you listen to music.  Your brain has an amazing ability (to an extent) to separate out the room, the reflected sounds, from the direct sound from the speakers..  When you record that sound with mics and replay it over speakers most of the cues that your brain uses to perform this "filtering" are lost.  Thats why it sounds so different to actually being there. 

Cool story and massive conjecture. I've had binaural recordings that sound very realistic when played through a headphone, so I would say it's just that your setup is just inadequate.

[March Audio]

2 hours ago, manueljenkin said:

Cool story and massive conjecture. I've had binaural recordings that sound very realistic when played through a headphone, so I would say it's just that your setup is just inadequate.

Its not in any way conjecture, you might want to do some research on the subject.  You have never experienced the "cocktail party effect"? Do a search on auditory scene analysis.  Im not going to debate it with you.  Just to mention that you are also now on ignore along with Peterst and opus    . Your posting in the past few pages shows you are not here for sensible debate, just trying to be provocative and here for an argument.  I will just leave you guys to play with yourselves.  I have no doubt you will still continue to post stupid ad hominem comments........

[PeterSt]

7 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Just to mention that you are also now on ignore along with Peterst and opus    .

 

That is cool. Now the three of us will have our own group.

 

Btw, did Corona byte you ?

[PeterSt]

And did you perhaps notice that this is not your thread but that you took over fully ?

(and that with nonsense according to our great group of three)

 

But you still have Frank.

Hi Frank. I hope you are happy with your fellow citizen.

[manueljenkin]

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

Its not in any way conjecture, you might want to do some research on the subject.  You have never experienced the "cocktail party effect"? Do a search on auditory scene analysis.  Im not going to debate it with you.  Just to mention that you are also now on ignore along with Peterst and opus    . Your posting in the past few pages shows you are not here for sensible debate, just trying to be provocative and here for an argument.  I will just leave you guys to play with yourselves.  I have no doubt you will still continue to post stupid ad hominem comments........

Just throwing a couple of words you grabbed from online pages doesn't mean you have a good understanding of the topic. I know about cocktail party effect, cognitive inhibition and a few other psychoacoustic phenomenon. It is mostly irrelevant to what you are regurgitating though. I'm here for a sensible debate, just because it shows the flaws in your arguments doesn't mean it's senseless. Fyi, I have a project experience on this subject (computerized sound localisation) and I have spent months exploring the topic during my project, and years continuing the study after that as a personal pursuit, and I do know the current state of our understanding about these stuff. Doesn't mean I'm the authority on this subject, but I do know someone makes a foundational mistake.

[fas42]

Quote

 

But you still have Frank.

Hi Frank. I hope you are happy with your fellow citizen.

 

 

Ummm, well 😐 ... the results of that little playback, record exercise will be added to the Edifying thread - where it properly belongs ...

[opus101]

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

I have no doubt you will still continue to post stupid ad hominem comments........

 

Irony meter explodes.

[March Audio]

23 minutes ago, manueljenkin said:

Just throwing a couple of words you grabbed from online pages doesn't mean you have a good understanding of the topic. I know about cocktail party effect, cognitive inhibition and a few other psychoacoustic phenomenon. It is mostly irrelevant to what you are regurgitating though. Fyi, I have a project experience on this subject (computerized sound localisation) and I have spent months exploring the topic during my project, and years continuing the study after that as a personal pursuit, and I do know the current state of our understanding about these stuff.

Sorry I hadn't managed to get you on ignore yet.

 

So more ad hominem about my understanding which you have zero knowledge of.

 

Perhaps you might want to listen to someone else's view on the subject.  If you want to compare your knowledge and credibility against that of Floyd Toole.............

 

Pressing ignore 😜

 

 

[manueljenkin]

26 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Sorry I hadn't managed to get you on ignore yet.

 

So more ad hominem about my understanding which you have zero knowledge of.

 

Perhaps you might want to listen to someone else's view on the subject.  If you want to compare your knowledge and credibility against that of Floyd Toole.............

 

Pressing ignore 😜

 

 

 

Litmus test to check if you've put me on ignore yet (you've been advertising it as coming soon for some time now 😜).

 

Also fyi, that video is about loudspeaker performance and it's interaction with rooms. Nothing about mics and binaural recordings! One more episode of March Audio randomly inserting something in an effort to show off superiority.

[Jud]

5 hours ago, March Audio said:

If you cant hear that a recording of a speaker in a room sounds nothing like hearing it live in person then all hope is lost

 

It does seem somewhat remarkable that you can assert both this and that we are doing all the right things concerning audio reproduction so confidently.

[March Audio]

14 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

It does seem somewhat remarkable that you can assert both this and that we are doing all the right things concerning audio reproduction so confidently.

What does it sound like to you?  Does it sound a echoey?  Does it sound like what you hear when listening to your speakers in your room?

 

OK, "nothing like" is a bit of an exaggeration but you can try the experiment for yourself.

 

Im not sure what you are referring to when you say "we are doing all the right things"?  I have just pointed out that microphones simply dont "hear" like we do.  techniques are used to get a sound more akin to what we hear when there in person.

[PeterSt]

46 minutes ago, Jud said:

It does seem somewhat remarkable that you can assert

 

Would there be a limit on ignore lists ?

 

[Jud]

48 minutes ago, March Audio said:

What does it sound like to you?  Does it sound a echoey?  Does it sound like what you hear when listening to your speakers in your room?

 

OK, "nothing like" is a bit of an exaggeration but you can try the experiment for yourself.

 

Im not sure what you are referring to when you say "we are doing all the right things"?  I have just pointed out that microphones simply dont "hear" like we do.  techniques are used to get a sound more akin to what we hear when there in person.

 

So is it the engineers working at the microphone companies who after decades are not competent to make a product that will come anywhere near working for its intended purpose? What measurable differences are there between what you would hear at the venue and the mic capture? If it's a live performance using mics, amps, and speakers, why doesn't running the same mic output through a different but well designed amp and speakers give me a very reasonable duplication of that performance?

 

You mentioned it won't sound as "echoey," so is it the producers who haven't over decades of recording learned to capture echoes? And if they haven't properly captured the room, surely there's DSP for that? If there isn't DSP that can do the job and the room is an insuperable barrier, then there are headphones. I know you mentioned headphones create a closed chamber, but there have been "open air" headphone designs for a half century. Haven't they got it reasonably correct by now?

 

I suppose what I'm asking is in what measurable respects and where does our current recording and reproduction chain fall down?

 

 

[March Audio]

18 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

So is it the engineers working at the microphone companies who after decades are not competent to make a product that will come anywhere near working for its intended purpose? What measurable differences are there between what you would hear at the venue and the mic capture? If it's a live performance using mics, amps, and speakers, why doesn't running the same mic output through a different but well designed amp and speakers give me a very reasonable duplication of that performance?

 

You mentioned it won't sound as "echoey," so is it the producers who haven't over decades of recording learned to capture echoes? And if they haven't properly captured the room, surely there's DSP for that? If there isn't DSP that can do the job and the room is an insuperable barrier, then there are headphones. I know you mentioned headphones create a closed chamber, but there have been "open air" headphone designs for a half century. Haven't they got it reasonably correct by now?

 

I suppose what I'm asking is in what measurable respects and where does our current recording and reproduction chain fall down?

 

 

It's not about microphones it's about your brain.