HQplayer 4 and Mac-mini M1

[Miska]

5 minutes ago, FooFighter said:

Reading through Headfi common sense is that Oor isn't the same without and running Susvara and TC of course I don't want to compromise but of course the same can be said for the NAA 😉

Will report back once I got everything up and running some time next week 

 

If you look at HiFi-News measurements, the measured difference is very minimal. I trust Oor having good enough regulation inside...

 

I have cables for both approaches, but ended up in this setup. Maybe some day I'll buy another Hypsos for the Oor, but for now I run this way.

 

[MikePid]

My MMM1 LPS upgrade is complete!  I was going to start a new thread, but I think I can cover the rest here.

 

Prior to permanently installing the Teradak power module, I switched back to the Apple power module to do some informal measurements and to reset my baseline sound.  

1. Using my iPad to do some SPL measurements, there did not appear to be any difference when using either power supply.  I had a perception of increased volume initially with the LPS, but I think it is due to more powerful dynamics and presence.  The power meter on my amp was not showing any difference either.

2. No contest regarding sound quality.  As stated before, in my system the LPS sound is more open and 3D, with wider soundstage.  I feel like I am inside the music and can move around in it compared with the Apple power module.  Transients are shockingly realistic. Overall, more detail, cleaner, really tight bass (e.g. The Album Leaf's Sucking Chest Wound or Tool's Chocolate Chip Trip), well-defined piano, and amazing vocals (e.g. Eva Cassidy's Nightbird).  Everything just sounds better as does any kind of music.

 

For me, this is a no-brainer upgrade for the price.  It takes things up to the next level.  I was skeptical at first being just digital processing, but I guess I shouldn't have been.  I have nice LPSs on my other all-digital devices: EtherREGEN (network switch) and ultraRendu (NAA).  I have no idea why better power helps in the digital domain, but I guess for the same reason better cables help.

 

My next project is to try feeding the MMM1 with my PH-SR4T to see how much difference an even better LPS might make.  But I need to let this uptick in sound quality settle in my ears. Even after listening for a week or so, I it is still amazing me.

 

Three things to watch out for with the install:

1. get the right tools:  Torx TR6 (security version with a centre hole) and T10.  I bought an iFixit kit which was perfect, and the magnetic bit holder is a must for handling the tiny screws.

2. the power harness to the motherboard is soft, so you need to be careful to insert it straight so it doesn't get damaged or bend pins (like happened to me).  The Apple connector is hard plastic and much easier to take out and insert.  The cable bundle is also thicker so it takes a big of effort to squeeze it into the plastic channel.

3. my DC cable is finicky on the 5.5mm end.  I had multiple problems that I thought were because of internal connections not tight, and it took me several attempts including switching back to the Apple power module to make sure I hadn't damaged anything.  In the end, I think all of my problems with not booting were because the DC cable was not seated well where it plugs into the MMM1.  Even now, if I disturb the DC cable, the MMM1 shuts off.  I put some De-oxit Gold on which helped, but still not a secure connection even though it is a tight fit.  I'll  troubleshoot further to see if it is the jack or the plug when I try my PH-SR4T. 

 

Thanks to @Schafheide for bringing this LPS kit https://kamaudio.com/TeraDak-Mac-mini-LPS to my attention!

 

The link I posted earlier to the MMM1 tear-down https://youtu.be/R4ArjHz4gd4 was immensely helpful for me.  Here are a couple more pictures with the LPS module being installed.  Earlier photos of the open-heart bypass surgery are 11 days back in this thread https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/61312-hqplayer-4-and-mac-mini-m1/?do=findComment&comment=117629 .

 

 

[Schafheide]

@MikePid

Thank you.  We all should help one another.  Hopefully, once mine has cleared the enormous Covid-related hold-ups at the various way-stations, I too will be as happy as you!

[MoVa70]

Thnks, all of u.. 

This is my next project.

My MMM1 running ROON + HQ Player..this must be..to do list.

Have a nice 1

 

 

 

 

[jamesg11]

Yes, I’d like to do this psu upgrade - had many fine years with the Uptone psu & fan control mod in my old 2012 macmini.

Lurking thought however that a significantly better arm mm (for HQP) might turn up in the next year.

[MikePid]

7 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

Lurking thought however that a significantly better arm mm (for HQP) might turn up in the next year.

Yep, and the next year after that there will be a better arm MM.  It is a never-ending chase 🤣.  From your sig, it looks like you already have the MMM1.  When MMM2 comes out, you can always put the old power module back in to the MMM1 and sell it, or sell it with the LPS on your local audio mart, and recover some of your costs in a year. 

 

For me, I only needed to go up to DSD256 (because the highest my DAC accepts), so MMM1 was sufficient for me.  Plus, my hearing ain't gettin' any better, so I would rather listen to the improvements now while I can still notice them 🤣.  If nothing else, you'll enjoy a year of better music, so is that worth US$300 to you to add the LPS?

 

It is hard to compare how much adding the LPS compares with going up to DSD512 instead.  Probably not as much as from DSD128 to DSD256, but some say that DSD256 to DSD512 is not as big of a jump in improvement anyway.  For me, the LPS was probably comparable to going from regular ASDM to ASDMEC or maybe 2 jumps to EC2.  I think of it as like having EC3 right now 😁

 

My digital path up to the DAC is almost the same as yours including etherREGEN, ultraRendu (both with nice LPSs) plus ghent CAT8 jssg360 cables.  My power is very clean too.  So I would expect that you could expect comparable improvement.  Of course, YMMV.

[SKR]

Hi I am new with HQPlayer. I was using HQPlayer 3 for two years and than started using Roon for last 3 years.

Now I have a Roon Nucleus + SOTM Ulltra Neo . My older Mac mini is not able to take the new HQPlayer 4 as I am trying to upgrade to HQPlayer 4.

I am thinking of buying a newer Mac mini M1 with 256 SSD + 8GB Ram.

I want to know if this M1 will be ok to handle HQPlayer and it’s upsampling capabilities.

 

[Louisiana]

2 hours ago, SKR said:

I want to know if this M1 will be ok to handle HQPlayer and it’s upsampling capabilities.

 

Hi,

of course it depends on how high you want upsampling.

DSD 512 is possible with certain filters.

The "most popular" combo, Poly Sync Ext 2, ASDM7ECV2 and DSD256 works wonderfully.

I also have the HQPlayer running on a Mac Mini M1, and am very satisfied.

For me it currently runs like this,  and as you can see from the CPU usage, the MAC is already quite busy with this.🙂

 

 

 

[SKR]

18 minutes ago, Louisiana said:

 

Hi,

of course it depends on how high you want upsampling.

DSD 512 is possible with certain filters.

The "most popular" combo, Poly Sync Ext 2, ASDM7ECV2 and DSD256 works wonderfully.

I also have the HQPlayer running on a Mac Mini M1, and am very satisfied.

For me it currently runs like this,  and as you can see from the CPU usage, the MAC is already quite busy with this.🙂

 

 

 

Thanks for your comments confirming capabilities of Mac Mini M1 for MQplayer.

Now I can go ahead buying M1 without any hesitation.

[MikePid]

Hi @SKR,

 

I can confirm that Mac Mini M1 8GB 256 SSD comfortably handles DSD256/ASDM7ECv with poly-sinc-gauss-xla (for 1x and poly-sinc-gauss-long for Nx) as long as that is all that is running on it.  

 

Miska has done a tremendous job optimizing HQPlayer to run on the M1 chip!

[mitch751]

11 hours ago, SKR said:

Hi I am new with HQPlayer. I was using HQPlayer 3 for two years and than started using Roon for last 3 years.

Now I have a Roon Nucleus + SOTM Ulltra Neo . My older Mac mini is not able to take the new HQPlayer 4 as I am trying to upgrade to HQPlayer 4.

I am thinking of buying a newer Mac mini M1 with 256 SSD + 8GB Ram.

I want to know if this M1 will be ok to handle HQPlayer and it’s upsampling capabilities.

 

16GB Ram is a must .. 

[MikePid]

I have found that 8GB is more than enough right now.  HQPlayer seems to take less than 500MB, and overall memory usage is under 5GB, and no swap used.  DSD256/7ECv2/xla for 1x.  No other apps running though.  Certainly 16GB would provide future-proofing if you want to spend the extra cash, but not a must in my experience. 

[AudioDoctor]

8 minutes ago, MikePid said:

I have found that 8GB is more than enough right now.  HQPlayer seems to take less than 500MB, and overall memory usage is under 5GB, and no swap used.  DSD256/7ECv2/xla for 1x.  No other apps running though.  Certainly 16GB would provide future-proofing if you want to spend the extra cash, but not a must in my experience. 

 

I don't know how you guys are getting such low ram usage from HQP Desktop on a Mac mini. I'm lucky if I get below 4GBs of ram usage from HQP alone.

[MikePid]

Here is the link from the other thread showing my memory usage:  https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/19715-hq-player/page/942/#elControls_1177414_menu .  I haven't seen it vary much from that.

 

I recommend turning all the Apple stuff off.  iCloud, Siri, Spotlight, etc.  I have the MMM1 configured as a headless "appliance", similar to something like an ultraRendu, rather than as a general-purpose computer.  I see from your reply in the other thread you have 1Password, Notification Center, CleanMyMac and other stuff.  Although that shouldn't affect the memory footprint for HQPlayer.  If you turn off all those other apps, even a 4GB HQPlayer should fit in 8GB.

 

I am streaming Tidal (from Roon) to ultraRendu NAA.  Miska replied that size of streaming files might make a difference.  I just queued up a 40min JMJ continuous mix track, and HQP memory size increased by less that 5%, and dropped back down when I skipped to the next track.  If you restart HQP, what is the initial memory usage before you play anything?  Mine is 64MB, and when I start playing it goes back to the same value as before I quit HQP, so there is no memory leak.

[AudioDoctor]

6 minutes ago, MikePid said:

Here is the link from the other thread showing my memory usage:  https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/19715-hq-player/page/942/#elControls_1177414_menu .  I haven't seen it vary much from that.

 

I recommend turning all the Apple stuff off.  iCloud, Siri, Spotlight, etc.  I have the MMM1 configured as a headless "appliance", similar to something like an ultraRendu, rather than as a general-purpose computer.  I see from your reply in the other thread you have 1Password, Notification Center, CleanMyMac and other stuff.  Although that shouldn't affect the memory footprint for HQPlayer.  If you turn off all those other apps, even a 4GB HQPlayer should fit in 8GB.

 

I am streaming Tidal (from Roon) to ultraRendu NAA.  Miska replied that size of streaming files might make a difference.  I just queued up a 40min JMJ continuous mix track, and HQP memory size increased by less that 5%, and dropped back down when I skipped to the next track.  If you restart HQP, what is the initial memory usage before you play anything?  Mine is 64MB, and when I start playing it goes back to the same value as before I quit HQP, so there is no memory leak.

 

I don't think you're lying, and I know it's not other stuff, as I can see how much RAM each process is using and HQP uses 3.5GB or more for me on my Mac mini.

[MikePid]

I just tried adding some matrix and pipeline stuff and it didn't make any difference.  Are you doing convolution stuff maybe?

[AudioDoctor]

1 minute ago, MikePid said:

I just tried adding some matrix and pipeline stuff and it didn't make any difference.  Are you doing convolution stuff maybe?

 

Nope.

[SKR]

1 hour ago, mitch751 said:

16GB Ram is a must .. 

I will be using M1 exclusively for music with no other programs running.

hope in that case 8 GB should be enough.

[AudioDoctor]

1 hour ago, MikePid said:

I just tried adding some matrix and pipeline stuff and it didn't make any difference.  Are you doing convolution stuff maybe?

 

However, HQP Embedded running on Ubuntu Server LTS doesn't even use 1GB of RAM in total for the entire system.

[Louisiana]

7 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

However, HQP Embedded running on Ubuntu Server LTS doesn't even use 1GB of RAM in total for the entire system.

But what about the upsampling then?

Can the Ubuntu server do what the Mac Mini M1 does?

For me, the HQPlayer uses 310MB in RAM.

And I also use the Mac for work, surfing, etc.

 

 

ROON is installed on an Intel NUC, and I'm thinking about buying another Intel NUC for the HQPlayer.

Of course with more power than the small i3 for Roon Rock 🤓

I have the NUC mounted right under my router, so it doesn't bother anyone.

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

11 hours ago, Louisiana said:

But what about the upsampling then?

Can the Ubuntu server do what the Mac Mini M1 does?

 

Of course it can, it all depends on the hardware specs.

[AudioDoctor]

Here I am listening to public radio and upsampling it to only 176.4. If I had to guess I would guess that it has to do with the filters we have chosen.

 

 

[MikePid]

I thought perhaps the HQP client might be a factor, but I just started it up and it didn't make a difference (other than add another process).

 

Not sure why @AudioDoctor needs 10x the memory for HQP. 🤷‍♂️  Seems to be same number of ports (no idea if that makes a difference), but twice the threads as me.  Even your HQP client is taking 5x more (although I am not actually using it nor had it been running for more than a minute).  So far, there is at least one other person reporting comparable memory usage like me (Louisiana).  Others can chime in and report their memory numbers.

 

Maybe a long shot, but how about killing everything else that HQP doesn't need, to see if all the swapping and memory management is somehow contributing to this?  I'm running the MMM1 as a dedicated HQP machine.  Other than screen sharing, there isn't much else going on.  Cobwebs forming in part of my RAM 😉

 

[sworksone]

I’m presently using a mini M1 dedicated to HQPlayer (with Roon on another device) and have the output from the mini direct by usb to a May KTE DAC.  I’ve been switching between 512 DSD with non EC and 256 with EC modulators (early days and I’m not sure which I prefer yet, but both are much better in my system vs 1.5 PCM).  Has anyone with a mini M1 and May DAC added an NAA for native DSD vs DoP and can comment on whether there is any impact to sound quality and/or ability to reach 1024 without EC modulators?  

[AudioDoctor]

43 minutes ago, MikePid said:

I thought perhaps the HQP client might be a factor, but I just started it up and it didn't make a difference (other than add another process).

 

Not sure why @AudioDoctor needs 10x the memory for HQP. 🤷‍♂️  Seems to be same number of ports (no idea if that makes a difference), but twice the threads as me.  Even your HQP client is taking 5x more (although I am not actually using it nor had it been running for more than a minute).  So far, there is at least one other person reporting comparable memory usage like me (Louisiana).  Others can chime in and report their memory numbers.

 

Maybe a long shot, but how about killing everything else that HQP doesn't need, to see if all the swapping and memory management is somehow contributing to this?  I'm running the MMM1 as a dedicated HQP machine.  Other than screen sharing, there isn't much else going on.  Cobwebs forming in part of my RAM 😉

 

 

HQP Client is a separate process with its own RAM usage.