Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

[TheAttorney]

23 minutes ago, Mike123 said:

I wasn't able to access Channel Mapping -- I get as far as Mu1>Audio>Device Setup> and Advanced Settings -- but cannot go further ..where do you find this setting to disable?

It's the very last row in Advanced settings. It's possible that surround sound options are not shown if another setting somewhere has not activated surround sound, but I've always had this as far as I can remember. Snapshot below.

 

 

[aangen]

I just checked and I had downmix selected. I followed your advise though. I will hear a difference??!!  😁

[Vincent des Champs]

On 9/22/2022 at 3:54 PM, Vincent des Champs said:

BREAKING: next Monday the Grimm Audio MU2 will be announced - dealers will be informed and planning will be discussed.

The MU2 features DAC functionality together with other goodies. Upgrading the MU1 is possible - approx 5k eur.

Launch date communicated: March 2023, prices: 15-16k for MU2 and 5-6k for upgrade from MU1.

 

Source: my local Grimm Audio dealer who has attended the product introduction @GA Office in Eindhoven.

[pvanosta]

20 minutes ago, Vincent des Champs said:

Launch date communicated: March 2023, prices: 15-16k for MU2 and 5-6k for upgrade from MU1.

 

Source: my local Grimm Audio dealer who has attended the product introduction @GA Office in Eindhoven.

In a complete Grimm system, where the DAC (and amplification) is embedded in the speakers, what is the benefit of buying the MU2 or upgrading the MU1?

[Vincent des Champs]

6 minutes ago, pvanosta said:

In a complete Grimm system, where the DAC (and amplification) is embedded in the speakers, what is the benefit of buying the MU2 or upgrading the MU1?

I would say nothing unless the MU2 DAC is of higher quality (and bypassing the DAC section in the LS1s is possible)..

[pvanosta]

7 minutes ago, Vincent des Champs said:

I would say nothing unless the MU2 DAC is of higher quality (and bypassing the DAC section in the LS1s is possible)..

thank you

[Analog Audio of Minnesota]

I am a dealer here in the US. To be clear, the MU2 is not replacing the MU1 but rather a product aimed at a different market. The MU1 is and will continue to be available for those who use the LS1x speaker line or anyone who wishes to use their existing DAC to do D/A conversion. Lets face it, that is a lions share of users. The MU2 product will incorporate a DAC, analog inputs and analog volume control. It is intended for those who want the a one box solution that simplifies their rack and maximizes the performance of Grimm's outstanding front end.

 

Regarding the release time frame... the comments mentioned news to me.  As of 09/23, Eelco himself said that it will be second quarter 2023 before units ship in volume. Me, I hope to get serial number 1 because I have so many clients lined up for it.

 

 

[PYP]

16 minutes ago, Vincent des Champs said:

I would say nothing unless the MU2 DAC is of higher quality (and bypassing the DAC section in the LS1s is possible)..

It will be interesting to read about the DAC in the MU2 vs. the LS1.  

 

While I'm most interested in a comparison of MU2 vs. MU1 + Tambaqui, I'm assuming the differences might be one of personal preference vs. sizable difference.  

[Vincent des Champs]

4 minutes ago, PYP said:

While I'm most interested in a comparison of MU2 vs. MU1 + Tambaqui

This is the test that I will perform once the MU2 hits the market.. bummer that the waiting is till March

[TheAttorney]

14 hours ago, PYP said:

While I'm most interested in a comparison of MU2 vs. MU1 + Tambaqui, I'm assuming the differences might be one of personal preference vs. sizable difference.  

In a similar vein, I'll be doing a comparison of MU2 vs MU1+Dave. However, the MU2 would have to win by a clear margin for me to make the change.

 

I note the comment that MU2 will have an analogue volume control. This suggests the possibility of also having a headphone socket - which would be very, very interesting if it is of high quality. Then I could truly envisage a one-box headphone solution. But a headphone function was not on Grimm's radar when I asked a year ago.

[Dandou]

1 hour ago, TheAttorney said:

Then I could truly envisage a one-box headphone solution.

 

Hopefully, the MU2 will not be limited to Roon, but will allow installing additional players. 

Roon is good, but it can not do everything. For instance, It does not support VST plugins, and this feature is important for headphones listening. 

[Eelco Grimm]

Please allow me to step into the discussion and help to avoid confusion. First of all: yes we are developing a 'MU2' streamer, which is a unit that has similar looks as the MU1, but a different target group of users. It will sit next to the MU1 in our catalog, and not replace it. The MU1 only has digital outputs, the MU2 only has analog outputs. So they serve different use cases. For instance, someone who loves his high quality DAC or active loudspeaker with digital inputs (like the Grimm Audio LS1 series) will choose the MU1, someone who likes full integration of functions and has a power amp and passive loudspeakers will choose the MU2. 

 

The MU2 is still under development. We do not work towards a release date but only release a product when it is finished at our intended quality level. We hope to introduce the MU2 in the first half of 2023, but this is dependent on how development proceeds, plus the availability and delivery time of components (that is still problematic unfortunately). 

 

Function wise, the MU2 carries a built-in noise shaped DAC of discrete design based on our FPGA technology. It has both digital and analog inputs and an analog (relais based) volume control. We choose an analog volume control since it offers volume control of the two analog sources without AD conversion. There is also a headphone output. Note that internally a MU2 is so much different from the MU1 that there is no upgrade path possible. The price of the MU2 is not yet set. It will be less than twice the price of the MU1, but no other ballpark figure can yet be offered. The 15-16k number that @Vincent des Champs mentioned is not confirmed. 

 

I am sorry to disprove the rumours. More info will follow once we are close to the (yet to be scheduled) release date.

 

Thanks all for your strong interest in our developments!

 

Best regards,
Eelco Grimm

[TheAttorney]

1 hour ago, Eelco Grimm said:

Note that internally a MU2 is so much different from the MU1 that there is no upgrade path possible.

Thank you Eelco for clearing that up.

 

A number of MU1 owners (and dealers) had the strong impression that there would be an upgrade path from MU1 to MU2. So maybe you could re-consider some form of upgrade, or favourable part exchange, path in due course?

 

This would only be applicable if the DAC and analogue sections meet the high expectations that we've come to expect from Grimm - and that we won't be able to test until whenever it's released next year.

[Vincent des Champs]

5 hours ago, Eelco Grimm said:

Function wise, the MU2 carries a built-in noise shaped DAC of discrete design based on our FPGA technology.

Presumably the digital front end (Roon Core/ Audio device-streamer) plus all it’s sound enhancing functionalities will be adopted from the MU1, is this a correct assumption?

[Eelco Grimm]

12 minutes ago, Vincent des Champs said:

Presumably the digital front end (Roon Core/ Audio device-streamer) plus all it’s sound enhancing functionalities will be adopted from the MU1, is this a correct assumption?

The 'Roon Core side' and most of the internal control data software will indeed be the same in the MU1 and MU2. So the user experience with the two is similar. The fpga upsampler of the MU1 will be 'integrated' with the DAC of the MU2.

[Nicholas Dong]

2022年9月23日下午4点17分，律师说：

我尝试了“仅限频道映射”的更改......我真的很喜欢它（用于我的立体声耳机收听）。所以，感谢你分享这个。

我没有耐心回去把它与之前的Roon调整建议进行比较，但从记忆中，我想说，如果Roon用户有时间/倾向只做一个Roon调整，那就做这个吧！我对这种差异感到惊讶，和Roon一样，这种变化会影响SQ是毫无意义的。

 

顺便说一句，我升级到Roon 2.0。完全没有痛苦，但我还没有尝试过ARC。据我所知，2.0的SQ很好。

 

Sablon AES（带Bocchino连接器）的特点是，与我尝试的其他AES电缆相比，它能够提高清晰度/细节/动态和有机/全体/轻松的演示。其他电缆倾向于以牺牲另一种风格为代价。但我还没有将其与其他人在此线程中推荐的任何其他AES电缆进行比较。

 

Sablon的Mark是一个直接向客户销售的单人乐队。因此，他的网站上没有购物篮设施。你需要给他发电子邮件，告诉他你的要求，然后从那里拿走。

 

 

I found that the Roon Radio you mentioned will still affect the clarity and transparency in version 2.0. Turn off each Roon Radio in the Roon settings and there is also a Roon Radio ends under the now playing list that also needs to be turned off. In addition, you mentioned before  The option to delete DSP arrives, I use an iPhone, and I can't find a place to delete it in the Roon DSP option, please take a screenshot and tell me how to delete it, thank you

[Nicholas Dong]

5分钟前，Eelco Grimm说：

“Roon Core方面”和大多数内部控制数据软件在MU1和MU2中确实是一样的。因此，两者的用户体验是相似的。MU1的fpga上采样器将与MU2的DAC“集成”。

Hey Eelco, thanks for the news about MU2, MU2 will integrate DAC and also integrate analog volume and power amplifier?  It will be a great work, only one device can do it all, it would be perfect if it can integrate the room correction system 😊

[Nicholas Dong]

13分钟前，Eelco Grimm说：

“Roon Core方面”和大多数内部控制数据软件在MU1和MU2中确实是一样的。因此，两者的用户体验是相似的。MU1的fpga上采样器将与MU2的DAC“集成”。

Eelco,When will the next version of the firmware be released, can I add the standby or shutdown function to the Grimm GUI interface, so that I don't have to go to the front of the machine and press the golden disc every time, the golden disc has a very beautiful appearance,  I don't want to smear this perfect golden disc with my damn handprints 😛

[TheAttorney]

51 minutes ago, Nicholas Dong said:

I found that the Roon Radio you mentioned will still affect the clarity and transparency in version 2.0. Turn off each Roon Radio in the Roon settings and there is also a Roon Radio ends under the now playing list that also needs to be turned off. In addition, you mentioned before  The option to delete DSP arrives, I use an iPhone, and I can't find a place to delete it in the Roon DSP option, please take a screenshot and tell me how to delete it, thank you

 

I've turned off Roon Radio in each Play Action drop down in settings, but I can still simply turn on/off RR from the Now Playing queue. This is a nice compromise because I, and many others, like to use RR. I find any SQ difference between RR on and off to be marginal - and sufficiently insignificant (compared to, say, the 2 Channel Mapping tweak) as to not worry about. This one's only for dedicated tweakers.

 

You can't adjust many DSP parameters from any phone - you must use a larger screen device like an iPad or laptop, where you'll find the "X Remove Filter" label at the top right when you enter each filter's main screen.

 

BTW, I'm pretty sure that it was a Pre-amp, never a Power Amp, that was on the radar for MU2.

[Nicholas Dong]

30 minutes ago, TheAttorney said:

 

I've turned off Roon Radio in each Play Action drop down in settings, but I can still simply turn on/off RR from the Now Playing queue. This is a nice compromise because I, and many others, like to use RR. I find any SQ difference between RR on and off to be marginal - and sufficiently insignificant (compared to, say, the 2 Channel Mapping tweak) as to not worry about. This one's only for dedicated tweakers.

 

You can't adjust many DSP parameters from any phone - you must use a larger screen device like an iPad or laptop, where you'll find the "X Remove Filter" label at the top right when you enter each filter's main screen.

 

BTW, I'm pretty sure that it was a Pre-amp, never a Power Amp, that was on the radar for MU2.

TheAttorney,The simple opening of RR you mentioned is the position in the picture, does Roon on the mobile phone cannot delete the DSP, does it mean that using different devices on the control end will also cause different sounds? Have you tried using a mobile phone and a large-screen device to compare?

 

[Eelco Grimm]

4 hours ago, Nicholas Dong said:

Eelco,When will the next version of the firmware be released, can I add the standby or shutdown function to the Grimm GUI interface, so that I don't have to go to the front of the machine and press the golden disc every time, the golden disc has a very beautiful appearance,  I don't want to smear this perfect golden disc with my damn handprints 😛

The next firmware update will indeed add a 'go into standby' function from within the GRUI. It is not possible to wake the MU1 from standby however, you will still need to turn or click the big knob.

[PYP]

35 minutes ago, Eelco Grimm said:

The next firmware update will indeed add a 'go into standby' function from within the GRUI. It is not possible to wake the MU1 from standby however, you will still need to turn or click the big knob.

Roon and Qobuz sometimes lose their handshake (or whatever it is) which requires logging out of Qobuz, rebooting the Roon core and then logging back into Qobuz.   To reboot the Roon core, is there an alternative to powering off/on the MU1?  If not, might there be a way to include this functionality (eventually) in the GRUI?  Thank you.  

[Eelco Grimm]

11 minutes ago, PYP said:

Roon and Qobuz sometimes lose their handshake (or whatever it is) which requires logging out of Qobuz, rebooting the Roon core and then logging back into Qobuz.   To reboot the Roon core, is there an alternative to powering off/on the MU1?  If not, might there be a way to include this functionality (eventually) in the GRUI?  Thank you.  

Interesting suggestion. We will discuss this option, thank you.

[TheAttorney]

17 hours ago, Nicholas Dong said:

TheAttorney,The simple opening of RR you mentioned is the position in the picture, does Roon on the mobile phone cannot delete the DSP, does it mean that using different devices on the control end will also cause different sounds? Have you tried using a mobile phone and a large-screen device to compare?

I haven't compared whether different Roon Remote devices affect SQ (I don't have the patience for that level of tweaking). However, my guess is that, in most cases, the SQ impact is happening at Roon Core, so it doesn't matter if the small-screen is or isn't displaying the DSP function. But who knows with Roon? The Roon developers certainly don't seem to test SQ to the level us audiophiles would like.

 

I did do one final test though along similar lines... to hear if the Audio Analysis function impacts SQ - as recently suggested.

I copied pairs of analysed and un-analysed versions of the same files into a playlist and shuffled the order around so I didn't know which was which - a reasonably blind A/B comparison. In this test, I couldn't reliably tell which was which. This doesn't mean that there are no differences, but I'm satisfied that any differences are sufficiently small for me not to worry about them. Which is just as well, because I don't know of any way to un-analyse my whole music library without re-importing the whole lot again (and thereby losing all my Roon edits so far). Phew! Bullet dodged.

[Nicholas Dong]

5小时前，TheAttorney说：

我没有比较不同的Roon Remote设备是否影响SQ（我对这种程度的调整没有耐心）。然而，我的猜测是，在大多数情况下，SQ影响发生在Roon Core，因此小屏幕是否显示DSP功能无关紧要。但谁知道Roon呢？Roon开发人员似乎没有像我们发烧友那样测试SQ。

 

我确实按照类似的思路做了一次最终测试......以听到音频分析功能是否影响SQ——正如最近建议的那样。

我把相同文件的一对分析和未分析版本复制到播放列表中，并拖动顺序，所以我不知道哪个是哪个——一个相当盲目的A/B比较。在这次测试中，我无法可靠地分辨哪个是哪个。这并不意味着没有差异，但我确信任何差异都足够小，我不用担心它们。这也是这样，因为我不知道在不重新导入整个音乐库的情况下取消分析我的整个音乐库（从而到目前为止丢失了我所有的Roon编辑）。哎呀！子弹躲开了。

The Roon Core does affect the sound, but the external Roon Core needs to be independently powered and transmitted to the MU1 through a network cable. The impact of these two cables on the sound is also very subtle, so I think the built-in Roon Core in the Mu1 is perfect enough.  Thank you for sharing your valuable comparative experience. The role of audio analysis is actually irrelevant to us, so I think it is useless to open it. When you know 1 (without audio analysis) and 2 (with audio analysis), the sound you hear is  Is 1 better or 2?