Grimm Audio MU1 and MU2 Music Players

[aangen]

Apparently you missed the John Atkinson review in Stereophile last year.

[PYP]

35 minutes ago, aangen said:

Apparently you missed the John Atkinson review in Stereophile last year.

Ah, yes, I forgot that one.  And Stereophile's Product of the Year Award, as well.  Thanks for the reminder.  

 

I believe it takes a few reviews to get the ball rolling and YouTube reviewers reach a key audience as well.   This is just speculation on my part to explain why such a great component isn't getting more attention in the U.S.  Perhaps those who generally know of Grimm think of it as a pro-audio company (I did).  

[TheAttorney]

Effect of Roon's DSP on SQ

 

It's a shame that Roon's DSP impacts SQ (over-smoothing and dulling of the sound) because I'd really like to use some of the functions, like PEQ, cross-feed and volume leveling. So I have all such "filters" disabled. But over at WBF forum, they've been discussing an interesting phenomenon: Disabling the filters is not enough - you have to remove them entirely for best sound!

 

This was on various servers, so I wondered if it would affect the MU1 as well. In short, it does, and the following is a simple test for you to try. But don't try it if you currently make full use of DSP because removing filters will lose whatever settings you've configured.

If you minimally use DSP, then just record (e.g. screen-shot) your current settings so you can re-instate them later.

 

The Test

 

Step 1. Go to your DSP screen (shortcut is CTRL and /). Remove all filters (select each filter and hit the Remove button on top right of screen). Disable anything else (Headroom Management and Sample Rate Conversion). Also Roon volume control must be "fixed". So there should be no Roon DSP active anywhere. It's possible you are already in this state if you've never tried any Roon DSP.

 

Step 2. Add the first filter Procedural EQ. It comes up as Enabled by default. Note there are no EQ procedures set up yet for this filter, so still no DSP active anywhere. It's just an empty shell.

 

Step 3. Whilst listening to music, toggle between the 3 states Enabled, Disabled and Removed.

 

To me they all sound different, which is interesting because none of them have actually invoked any DSP.

The differences are fairly subtle on rapid A/B testing, but become more profound as you listen longer to the best one, which by far is filter removed, with greater clarity and transparency - so much so that it may show up brightness issues elsewhere in you system - for me it emphasized how important an extended warm-up period is for the MU1.

 

Try it. You can thank me later. Or curse me if you currently use DSP and now find you can't go back to it because you can't now un-hear the clarity gained by fully removing it.

 

[soupcon]

On 3/29/2022 at 2:09 PM, FredM said:

Less audio nervosa 😀. Simply enjoy the music, with less worrying or need for change

this is my first impression.

it's enveloping like some of the more colored types of gear, but doesn't make the obvious mistakes. 

i'm dealing with Roon, though I have to admit it does encourage a deeper exploration of music in general.  

😂

[TheAttorney]

As a recovering audioholic, I too aspire to less audio nervosa and more pure listening. However....

 

When someone else (Blue58 at WBF) has done all the tedious bits of investigation and testing and has handed us a gift on a silver platter that is (a) Free, (b) easy and (c) fully reversible, it would be remiss of any audiophile not to give it a go,

 

Blue58 has since discovered an even more unlikely Roon tweak: Remove Roon Radio from the drop down list for each of the functions in Setting -> Play Actions.

 

All this is doing is changing a drop down list - irrespective of whether Roon Radio is actually in use. I can't imagine how this could possibly impact SQ, and yet that's what it seems to do. It's very easy to do an A/B test. First disable Radio in every single case. Then toggle the Radio field in say the very first function "Album". I found it hard at first to differentiate A and B - One seemed better than the other, but I could establish in what way. Then on one track it suddenly clicked and, from then on, it was obvious. 

 

The DSP and Radio tweaks seem to compliment each other well. In combination, they give a significant uptick in SQ that would rival spending hundreds of bucks on hardware tweaks. What's not to like?

 

The reaction at WBF was muted because many (like me) don't want to lose the Radio functionality. 

The good news is that they appear to have missed a trick: You can still activate/deactivate Radio from the Queue screen. That's the only way I've ever invoked Radio. In fact, during my tests, all the tracks I was listening to were chosen by Roon Radio. I still can't get over how changing a drop-down list can impact SQ.

 

[PYP]

@TheAttorney the audience for this is broader than Grimm MU1 users.  It deserves it own thread.  

 

This reminds me of similar tweaks to the Logitech Touch, except those were done via the command line. The aim was better sound quality.

 

Eventually, there was a manual with screenshots, which temporarily (a factory re-set would reverse them) and selectively removed functions.  The tweaks were cumulative.   From memory, the biggest change in sound quality resulted from turning off the wifi and using a wired ethernet connection instead.   

 

But, in that case, the hardware was as much a limitation as the software.  Not the situation with the MU1.

 

 

[TheAttorney]

2 hours ago, PYP said:

@TheAttorney the audience for this is broader than Grimm MU1 users.  It deserves it own thread. 

Maybe, but it is relevant that most people (including me) have so far considered MU1 to be immune from the vagaries of Roon SQ, so we don't have to worry each time there is a new Roon update that seems to impact most other servers. So it's interesting that there are two instances where a Roon change does now seem to affect SQ on the MU1. This is a good thing IMO - Roon on MU1 starts off sounding excellent and now it seems it can sound even more excellent.

[Fourlegs]

1 hour ago, TheAttorney said:

Maybe, but it is relevant that most people (including me) have so far considered MU1 to be immune from the vagaries of Roon SQ, so we don't have to worry each time there is a new Roon update that seems to impact most other servers. So it's interesting that there are two instances where a Roon change does now seem to affect SQ on the MU1. This is a good thing IMO - Roon on MU1 starts off sounding excellent and now it seems it can sound even more excellent.

 

I have been following this thread partly because I mn still interested in the MU1 despite having a K50 but also for the Roon input and tips in this thread.

 

Yesterday I fired up my Roon lifetime subscription and deleted all the Roon dsp options I could find as suggested and also as suggested despite them not being active. Yes there was a slight uptick in the Roon SQ but unfortunately it still did not take it any where near the sound quality of LMS server and Squeezelite player when I went back to that combination after trying Roon with all the dsp options deleted.

 

I wonder whether Grimm ever tried the MU1 with LMS / Squeezelite?

 

 

[soupcon]

6 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

 

I have been following this thread partly because I mn still interested in the MU1 despite having a K50 but also for the Roon input and tips in this thread.

 

Yesterday I fired up my Roon lifetime subscription and deleted all the Roon dsp options I could find as suggested and also as suggested despite them not being active. Yes there was a slight uptick in the Roon SQ but unfortunately it still did not take it any where near the sound quality of LMS server and Squeezelite player when I went back to that combination after trying Roon with all the dsp options deleted.

 

I wonder whether Grimm ever tried the MU1 with LMS / Squeezelite?

 

 

i'm pretty sure Grimm is working on an alternative, though rudimentary, player. I think that will present a moment of truth re Roon's "inherent" sound. 

[PYP]

2 minutes ago, soupcon said:

i'm pretty sure Grimm is working on an alternative, though rudimentary, player. I think that will present a moment of truth re Roon's "inherent" sound. 

It seems that other server manufacturers like Taiko and Wadax have added software filters (? not sure that is correct) to improve the sound of Roon.  

 

One question is whether Grimm's rudimentary player will provide the same integration of Qobuz and the use of something like Roon Radio.  I'm not the only one who discovers new music this way.  

[Fourlegs]

10 minutes ago, PYP said:

One question is whether Grimm's rudimentary player will provide the same integration of Qobuz and the use of something like Roon Radio.  I'm not the only one who discovers new music this way.  

Radio Paradise is pretty good for discovering new music . . . . .

[skatbelt]

Recently I was offered the opportunity to try out the Grimm MU1 in my system for a few days. I am happy to share my findings with anyone interested.

 

While not cheap, I think the price of the MU1 is certainly justifiable. You actually buy a network bridge, a Roon server and a Roon endpoint in one housing while all separate components play at the highest level. Also in terms of power supply quality and isolation/(re)clocking of the incoming signal. No concessions due to the one-box principle. And what I really appreciate is that the necessity of USB as a connection type (in my opinion the Achilles' heel of digital audio) has been eliminated. Just like with my dCS Network Bridge. Roon has also never sounded better in my listening room. Where until the MU1 - and when compared to other music players - it's most important raison d'être is it's transparent window on ones music collection. 

 

Nevertheless, I decided not to purchase the MU1. The reason is that Roon/MU1 didn't sound better than dCS Mosaic/dCS Network Bridge. At least without upsampling active on the MU1. With upsampling things changed a bit. I know that many consider the 4x upsampling of the MU1 to be preferable, but in my book this setting sounded somewhat artificial but especially 'larger than life'. But 2x upsampling really felt like a sweet spot. Actually the first time I liked upsampling before my Chord DAVE. I always found DAVE sounding best fed with native rates. The 2x upsampling mode of the MU1 was the first time I heard something I really liked, even over extended periods of listening.

 

My conclusion was that this upsampling quality is the only thing that really distinguishes the MU1 from the system I already have. Not enough for me to replace my beloved dCS Network Bridge. Also taking for granted that for the best SQ I have to use the lesser dCS Mosaic music player ecosystem compared to Roon. Maybe it's time for me to experiment with Chord's own M Scaler technology!

 

What disappointed me about the MU1 is that there is no app for smartphone and/or tablet and not even a web-interface in which you can change the device settings. Everything has to be done physical with the 'so so' intuitive rotary wheel on the device itself. It is possible to program an IR remote control, but to be honest I don't think this is the way to go in this era.

[PYP]

I've heard that a web interface for the MU1 will be released with the next software update.  

 

Just curious what was upstream of the MU1 and whether you used an AES/EBU cable to connect to your DAC....

[soupcon]

1 hour ago, skatbelt said:

Recently I was offered the opportunity to try out the Grimm MU1 in my system for a few days. I am happy to share my findings with anyone interested.

 

While not cheap, I think the price of the MU1 is certainly justifiable. You actually buy a network bridge, a Roon server and a Roon endpoint in one housing while all separate components play at the highest level. Also in terms of power supply quality and isolation/(re)clocking of the incoming signal. No concessions due to the one-box principle. And what I really appreciate is that the necessity of USB as a connection type (in my opinion the Achilles' heel of digital audio) has been eliminated. Just like with my dCS Network Bridge. Roon has also never sounded better in my listening room. Where until the MU1 - and when compared to other music players - it's most important raison d'être is it's transparent window on ones music collection. 

 

Nevertheless, I decided not to purchase the MU1. The reason is that Roon/MU1 didn't sound better than dCS Mosaic/dCS Network Bridge. At least without upsampling active on the MU1. With upsampling things changed a bit. I know that many consider the 4x upsampling of the MU1 to be preferable, but in my book this setting sounded somewhat artificial but especially 'larger than life'. But 2x upsampling really felt like a sweet spot. Actually the first time I liked upsampling before my Chord DAVE. I always found DAVE sounding best fed with native rates. The 2x upsampling mode of the MU1 was the first time I heard something I really liked, even over extended periods of listening.

 

My conclusion was that this upsampling quality is the only thing that really distinguishes the MU1 from the system I already have. Not enough for me to replace my beloved dCS Network Bridge. Also taking for granted that for the best SQ I have to use the lesser dCS Mosaic music player ecosystem compared to Roon. Maybe it's time for me to experiment with Chord's own M Scaler technology!

 

What disappointed me about the MU1 is that there is no app for smartphone and/or tablet and not even a web-interface in which you can change the device settings. Everything has to be done physical with the 'so so' intuitive rotary wheel on the device itself. It is possible to program an IR remote control, but to be honest I don't think this is the way to go in this era.

 

Great to have your experience on record. I just retired my DCSNB for the MU1 (used, because I could). I'm really glad not to have as many boxes and cables. I loved the DCS.

 

I would certainly say the MU1 did not embarrass the DCS (using Mosaic), but I have already found really meaningful improvements with MU1. The often-mentioned ease is the most enigmatic quality, but I am also experiencing greater depth, focus, clarity without harshness, more linear low frequencies, much better ability to play loud without harshness. [Also may it be mentioned: DCS released an update that allows one to use Tidal Connect with the Tidal apps. I only had about a day with it, but it sounded different from the internal mosaic use of Tidal. I thought i liked it better, but I didn't have enough time to evaluate.]

 

I became irritated with the soft sound of Roon via the DCS.  Mosaic was a great improvement--in the direction of what the MU1 does: more clarity, better transients throughout the spectrum, yet easier to listen to.  Ultimately, with mosaic alone, I missed the music discovery experience it offers. Believe me, I wanted to get out of the Roon prison. I am not a happy Roon customer, but it has no peer at this point in terms of certain aspects of enjoying music. 

 

I would certainly play with the M-scaler if I were you. 

[skatbelt]

8 hours ago, PYP said:

I've heard that a web interface for the MU1 will be released with the next software update.  

 

Just curious what was upstream of the MU1 and whether you used an AES/EBU cable to connect to your DAC....

 

Yes, I used AES/EBU. The cable is Transparent premium AES/EBU.

 

Upstream of the MU1: ISP router >  Sonore OpticalModule powered by Uptone LPS-1.2  > EtherREGEN powered by Ferrum Hypsos. Nothing else connected to B side of the EtherREGEN

 

Maybe also good to mention: the dCS Network Bridge, DAVE and my Lyngdorf amplifier are on a dedicated power line and isolated and powered (balanced) by an Isolation Transformer.

 

@soupcon maybe this upstream chain explains the difference between what you experience and what I have experienced. I didn't experiment but suspect the MU1 to do a better job with a 'lesser' incoming ethernet signal compared to the dCS. And it's not that both components presented the music exactly the same, just evenly addictive.

 

One last datapoint and maybe also interesting for others: recently I switched from a Uptone LPS-2 to a Ferrum Hypsos powering the EtherREGEN. Against my expectation, no small change!

 

[skatbelt]

6 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

Yes, I used AES/EBU. The cable is Transparent premium AES/EBU.

 

Upstream of the MU1: ISP router >  Sonore OpticalModule powered by Uptone LPS-1.2  > EtherREGEN powered by Ferrum Hypsos. Nothing else connected to B side of the EtherREGEN

 

Maybe also good to mention: the dCS Network Bridge, DAVE and my Lyngdorf amplifier are on a dedicated power line and isolated and powered (balanced) by an Isolation Transformer.

 

@soupcon maybe this upstream chain explains the difference between what you experience and what I have experienced. I didn't experiment but suspect the MU1 to do a better job with a 'lesser' incoming ethernet signal compared to the dCS. And it's not that both components presented the music exactly the same, just evenly addictive.

 

One last datapoint and maybe also interesting for others: recently I switched from a Uptone LPS-2 to a Ferrum Hypsos powering the EtherREGEN. Against my expectation, no small change!

 

Correction: nothing else connected to A-side of EtherREGEN of course. And the Ferrum Hypsos replaced an Uptone JS-2 (not LPS-2). 

[soupcon]

7 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

 

@soupcon maybe this upstream chain explains the difference between what you experience and what I have experienced. I didn't experiment but suspect the MU1 to do a better job with a 'lesser' incoming ethernet signal compared to the dCS. And it's not that both components presented the music exactly the same, just evenly addictive.

 

 

 

 

with the DCS, my upstream chain was: DCS > designacable CATSNAKE > fidelizer etherstream > designacable CATSNAKE > router, with etherstream and nucleus powered by a keces p8. took the nucleus out of service, sold the p8, put in the ifi ipower elite to power the etherstream (really pleasant surprise). then a little bit later put the Grimm into action. not sure the ethernet signal would be considered a LOT lesser in this case. I will say, having had all of transparent's stuff since the early days when i sold the stuff, the XL is a GIANT step up from the premium and could arguably account for more resolved difference, but as always, I try not to get ideological or "religulous" with this stuff :) Although Bruno Putzeys might in my book qualify as a Patron Saint of audio....

 

i think your experience points to the very high quality of the DCSNB nonetheless, and i suspect they will (continue to) go up in value. i sold mine too cheap. 

 

 

[PYP]

40 minutes ago, soupcon said:

Although Bruno Putzeys might in my book qualify as a Patron Saint of audio....

 

Agreed.  He was with Grimm Audio in the early days helping design their speaker, Hypex (its DIY side made innovative technology affordable), Mola Mola (amps, DAC, preamp), Kii, Purifi Audio.  Quite a list and all before his 50th birthday.  

[skatbelt]

16 hours ago, soupcon said:

 

with the DCS, my upstream chain was: DCS > designacable CATSNAKE > fidelizer etherstream > designacable CATSNAKE > router, with etherstream and nucleus powered by a keces p8. took the nucleus out of service, sold the p8, put in the ifi ipower elite to power the etherstream (really pleasant surprise). then a little bit later put the Grimm into action. not sure the ethernet signal would be considered a LOT lesser in this case. I will say, having had all of transparent's stuff since the early days when i sold the stuff, the XL is a GIANT step up from the premium and could arguably account for more resolved difference, but as always, I try not to get ideological or "religulous" with this stuff :) Although Bruno Putzeys might in my book qualify as a Patron Saint of audio....

 

i think your experience points to the very high quality of the DCSNB nonetheless, and i suspect they will (continue to) go up in value. i sold mine too cheap. 

 

 

 

Looks like you've built up a nice minimalistic over time system. I've also often thought about active speakers like the Kii's, Dutch & Dutch 8C's and Grimm LS1's. But they haven't convinced me so far. Even the Grimm LS1be. I have the idea that this is due to the build-in DACs. A multichannel Mola Mola DAC inside of the Kii's would probably really bring them to state of the art levels (and dito pricing)....

[soupcon]

11 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

Looks like you've built up a nice minimalistic over time system. I've also often thought about active speakers like the Kii's, Dutch & Dutch 8C's and Grimm LS1's. But they haven't convinced me so far. Even the Grimm LS1be. I have the idea that this is due to the build-in DACs. A multichannel Mola Mola DAC inside of the Kii's would probably really bring them to state of the art levels (and dito pricing)....

 

i have been using active speakers in my audiophile system for the last 7 years or so. I feel relief from having to obsess about (and pay for) cables.

 

since i'm a musician, i treasure the area where high end pro audio meets high end home audio. i personally think there is more truth there (even if sometimes less impressive), and i have a better read on what is being done on recordings, which is important to me. 

 

that said, i'm having trouble again with Roon's indexing, making me wonder if doubling down on Roon was such a good idea.....  these guys need a kick in the pants. today, I'm wishing the Grimm had an alternate player such as was the case with the DCS. I'm literally in a situation where I can't play a track that is actually on Tidal.

 

 

 

[PYP]

10 minutes ago, soupcon said:

I'm wishing the Grimm had an alternate player such as was the case with the DCS. 

Apparently Grimm is working on that.  The following was posted by a U.S. Grimm dealer on WBF:  "...there is an update coming out in 2022 that allows it [MU1] to be used with other controller software. I assume that means they will be adding UpnP/DLNA support."

[soupcon]

59 minutes ago, PYP said:

Apparently Grimm is working on that.  The following was posted by a U.S. Grimm dealer on WBF:  "...there is an update coming out in 2022 that allows it [MU1] to be used with other controller software. I assume that means they will be adding UpnP/DLNA support."

can not wait!

i think i also read they were working on a Tidal connect capability. Does anyone know what the "signal path" for it is?

 

Has anyone upgraded to 1.4?

[PYP]

1 hour ago, soupcon said:

Has anyone upgraded to 1.4?

Yes.  No issues.   Took about 10 minutes or so.  

 

I like the new web interface (as shown above).  Since I don't need the display and prefer as few lights/screens/etc., I set the Display Auto Dim.    

 

This must be a huge interface improvement for folks who use the LS 1.  

[aangen]

Loving the web interface and the screen off!

DSD 256! I have a lot of DSD 256 recordings.

Noice!

 

to use the web interface just type the MU1 IP address into the address bar of you browser.

[soupcon]

intrigued by the first improvement. does this imply a sonic difference? I could swear my system sounded better after the update, but then it may have been I was listening to particularly great recordings 🤣