Schiit Audio Releases its Unison USB Upgrade

[matthias]

After releasing Unison I hope Schiit will launch this year as well the matching CD transport with USB output.

 

Matt

[matthias]

8 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

Is there such a thing as a CD transport that works in USB host mode?

 

USB host mode is exactly what Schiit plan to do.

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter.784471/page-649#post-14700297

 

Matt

[matthias]

18 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Thanks for the link.  That post is over a year old.  This will be very interesting if it ever sees the light of day.  And hypothetically, this transport would work with any DAC that takes USB input.

 

The only fly in the ointment that I can see is consumer demand for CD transports vs. development costs.  Based on the current dearth of quality CD transports at reasonable prices, I'm a little skeptical.  But don't misunderstand: if this is real one day I would likely purchase one.

 

This is a quote of Jason Stoddard from last December:

 

"Direction 1: it’ll be a heavy digital year. It’s time to shake things up again. Bifrost 2 was one of our most significant product introduction in a long, long time—debuting Unison USB and the Autonomy platform, making both hardware and firmware upgradability easy for any owner, significantly improving performance, introducing our first DAC remote control, and literally redefining what you can expect as its price point—but Bifrost 2 is only the start.

So what might you expect?

• Well, directionally, you should ask yourself what happened to the Gadget technology.
• At the same time, you should look to the past, of physical digital media, but also know that we’ll be looking to the future…at the same time.
• You might be surprised at the kind of performance we are moving towards in the True Multibit realm.
• And at the same time, the delta-sigma wins haven’t been lost of us either.
• However, those of you expecting a Gungnir 2 and Yggdrasil 2 in the mold of Bifrost 2 may be in for a shock. Linear extrapolation doesn’t always work."

 

I can imagine what he meant with physical digital media.

The price should be less than 1k.

 

Matt

 

 

 

[matthias]

9 hours ago, mansr said:

Yeah, I don't see much point in making a fancy CD player today. It's much simpler to rip the discs and play files.

 

I have zero interests to rip CDs.

 

Matt

[matthias]

11 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It’s here :~)

 

 

I am very curious about your listening impressions:-)

 

Matt

[matthias]

8 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Signal isolation perhaps?

 

"Complete electromagnetic and electrostatic Isolation"

 

Whatever this means.

 

Matt

[matthias]

30 minutes ago, thotdoc said:

What I was asking is 'In what ways is the SQ effected'? For example: Better separation? Punchier base? Tones closer to real instruments? ????

 

I was not asking, 'What is the mechanism by which SQ is effected'? That is interesting, but I need to decide if I want to get the upgrade and want to get some feedback first.

 

Some impressions here:

 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-unison-usb.8236/

 

Matt

[matthias]

On 2/9/2020 at 9:36 PM, JoeWhip said:

I have not been able to listen for a few days but I was able to do some extensive listening for a few hours before I had to get to other things. Is it worth it? Yes, it is a very nice improvement. First of all, the DAC seems to be a good bit quieter than with the gen 5 board. I hear more very faint details, things such as toe tapping, fingers on bass strings. The sound is a bit fuller, more meat on the bones if you will, not a ton but enough to notice. I also find it to be a tad more dynamic with a deeper and wider soundstage. Listen for example to Ray Brown’s bass on Starbucks Blues. It growls and jumps right out at you. Does it sound like a totally different DAC? No, but all things the Yggy does so well, it now does a bit better. The improvements all add up to a really nice improvement and make a great DAC even more of a joy to listen to. I look forward to getting back to it in a couple of days.

 

Thank you for sharing your impressions.

 

Which USB cable do you use between your Macbook and the Yggy?

 

Matt

[matthias]

15 minutes ago, jiminlogansquare said:

I have bought and installed the Unison board in my Yggy, and while I was heartened to find when I threw the switch that I hadn't actually destroyed my DAC and it functioned perfectly, I have been struggling a bit to hear any changes to the sound. Maybe this is because I was using the ISO Regen before and after the change-up to the USB input board. Maybe it's also partly attributable to a recent upgrade I made to my USB cable, from a basic Belkin Gold to a fancier one (Synergistic Research Atmosphere X), which could be confounding the comparison. I don't regret making the Unison USB board upgrade, as it cost only $150 and may yet yield some audible improvements.
 

So I may or may not have answered my own earlier question about how the Unison interfaces with a Regen. Anyone else with a Regen and who's made the switch to the Unison board have a different or more clear set of impressions?

 

Sorry for my seeming ambivalence; I might just be posting too soon after making the switch 24 hours ago. 

 

Maybe Unison sounds better without the ISO Regen?

 

Matt

[matthias]

On 1/29/2020 at 10:02 PM, matthias said:

After releasing Unison I hope Schiit will launch this year as well the matching CD transport with USB output.

 

Matt

 

Ten days ago Mike Moffat posted on SBAF:

 

"We lost John Prine this week. The next day Ivana shows up and before the sun went down the Unison USB Out worked. Fuck-ton of bugs but good enough to compare to S/PDIF out." 

 

Matt

[matthias]

1 hour ago, GeneZ said:

  Can you link it?   I need to read the context, please.

 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/the-mike-moffat-2-at-schiit-blog.3507/page-55#post-296332

 

The upcoming Unison output CD transport and the Unison input Yggdrasil will certainly be a perfect match.......

 

Matt

[matthias]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don't speak @baldr. Perhaps he can provide an explanation :~)

 

Would be very nice to have him here, his last post was from August, 2017.

 

Matt

[matthias]

Some new info from Mike Moffat about Unison Out:

 

"It has been weeks, if not months since I gave Jason the good news that the Unison USB as a digital out was of far greater promise than the BWD (bit word data) interface which I utilized back in the 1980s. At that time, it was vastly superior over S/Pdif, which was then was the only method of digital connectivity. Well, as of now the best by far new method is Unison USB out to Unison USB in. The king is dead – long live the king. 

A huge Unison advantage over BWD is that it connects standard method - USB to USB. No need for weird-assed proprietary connectors/cables. To say nothing of the sound. The problem is that since we cannot be arrogant enough (although glibly tempting) to say that this Schiit Unison output, should be connected to Schiit DACs only. The problem is that is in BWD territory – proprietrary. NFG.

So we first made the Unison output work with our Unison and GenX Schiit USB inputs. In this case of the Unison USB output, there are some 7-8 other chips (I think as of now; could be a couple more) used for USB audio input in the wild. These are chips made by others which our competitors of necessity buy. 

So we have to make our USB input work with a variety of other people’s chips. Since we are making our own USB interface, these chipmakers view us as competition and are not forthcoming with what we need to do to work with their chips. So we gave to figure it out for ourselves. This is now in process, along with debugs. Ivana just gave me her latest version of Unison USB Out software which indeed is sounds better, less buggy and runs faster. 

So just for emphasis, let me repeat loudly: BWD is dead, beyond stiff and smelling very badly. The have been some on this forum chattering about it, but all they do is waste bandwidth. I am sorry it took so long for me to clarify this."

 

Matt

[matthias]

57 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

SO is this device going to be a CD player? A Server? What exactly?

 

AFAIK, the first device will be the Schiit CD transport.

 

Matt

[matthias]

3 hours ago, rickca said:

Can Unison host be implemented in a PCIe USB card like the JCAT USB Femto or a device like the Uptone ISO REGEN?  Is Schiit interested in partnering with another company to accelerate adoption of Unison host?

 

AFAIK from comments of Jason and Mike on some forums they are not interested. With these devices they would promote their competitors.

 

Matt

[matthias]

Some news from MM:

 

Work on transport continues. The transport is still in alpha stage, where it will remain until I have confidence in it USB driving a majority of the DACs out in the wild. Sounds amazing, though. The reason is that there are far more USB input chips (DAC side) in the wild than USB output chips which drive the Unison USB input section already in Schiit production. I have just built a gizmo which can test DACs to see if they are compatible. I shall see how many DACs I can find and test. More shall be revealed.
 

Matt

[matthias]

40 minutes ago, baldr said:

It is quite the challenge to qualify the USB output of the transport with the hundreds of D/A converters in the wild. No such problem with S/Pdif, as it is a standardized input/output protocol, with specific control bits reserved.

The USB, on the other hand, has standard descriptors and handshake speeds for both speeds of digital audio. Other unusual formats, such as dsd (not picking on them – there are many others) have descriptors and handshake protocols which vary in speed and assignment. It therefore becomes a complex problem to interface our USB output with a wide variety of D/a converters, which only begins with access to those devices. The generally proprietary nature of our industry, makes access problematical.

The gizmo we have built is a two input USB switcher with our Unison USB output. This will allow the user to verify if our USB out works with their converter. It is also a much smaller box than a transport to utilize when we arrive at early beta times. As quoted above the transport remains in alpha. If it is not already obvious, the product is a CD transport. This is a good time for me to restate my opinion that CD playback with our Unison CD Host and Input is the finest digital audio I have heard.  I know, I know, it is all ones and zeros, no??  There is something else in play, since streamers are just NOT the same.  When I figure out what's different, maybe I'll be rich. 

 

Mike,

thanks for sharing 🙂

Does it sound better than your famous Theta transport?

 

Matt

[matthias]

17 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

As I understand it, the USB is the output of the CD player with Unison. If I am wrong, I am sure everyone will correct me.

 

Correct, IIUC there will be only USB as output of the transport.

 

Matt

[matthias]

15 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

There has to be a reason why so many people suggest DSD over enet is currently best possible sounding architecture though, but usb is a whole lot more convenient.

 

IMHO, the best sounding architecture is either UHQ server via USB into DAC like Taiko Extreme or CDT via USB into DAC like Schiit with Unison.

 

Matt

[matthias]

Some more info about Schiit Unison Out CD transport this time from Jason:

 

Don't expect the transport to be super-cheap, if that's what you're looking for, though we're not talking car-like prices (like other transports that use some of our mechanicals cost.)

Do expect it to be a game-changer in what you can expect from a transport.

And do expect it this year.

 

Matt

[matthias]

23 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

most people that have tried, would argue take if you took the same dac you suggest off of an enet solution like optical rendu or sotm that it would be better....inre cdt, it's just not practical for conveniency anymore....why couldn't schiit do a sd or ssd transport? Then it would be interesting...jmo

 

While you are here though, i have a question regarding the unison usb....

with the unison usb, does it isolate well enough where it doesnt matter how noisy the pc is?  And why would it make a difference what computer (e.g. you mention some uhq server?) if you use a unison usb if it truly isolates?  Is there still a probelm with usb timing or something else where the pc would make a difference even with unison usb?

 

The way unison is marketed, it sounds as though it doesn't make a difference what pc is being used if it isolates and regenerates??

 

No one has ever provided a logical reason (at least that makes sense to me), that if everyone agrees that the digital music is recieved by the dac correctly, and if all there is that is transmitted is:::

 

digital music (everyone agrees the dac receives this correctly)

reference voltage (unison isolates and provides it's own)

noise (galvanically isolated)

 

 what difference anything would make....and it seems the dac engineers don't know the answer either?? 

 

Even if you can't completely isolate all noise, if it recieves the bits correctly and it regenerates the bits without audible noise....etc...

 

There is still some part of the technology missing for it to make sense?

 

I have the impression that nobody can answer your questions to your satisfaction, anyway I share my opinion:

 

To maximise the quality of digital music reproduction, the order of importance is (from most to least):

 

The performance of the artist, the recording, the CD/file, the source component that replays the CD/file, the DAC, the preamplifier, the power amplifier and the loudspeaker (least important).

We often refer to this order of importance as Source First.

 

The Schiit Unison seems to be a higher performing USB interface and allows you to hear better the quality of the music presented through the upstream components like network devices and server or CD transport.

 

IMO, even with isolating devices like FMC etc. the server is more important than the DAC.

 

Matt

[matthias]

30 minutes ago, jcbenten said:

I personally would like an awesome, standalone, USB Ripper...I prefer CD much more than buying a file but, since I no longer have my Genki, I need to rip.

 

Why not buy the upcoming transport?

 

Matt

[matthias]

4 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Expect the transport to be priced around a grand. It will not be in the mid hundreds, it will do more than just spin CDs. I think Jason and Mike have already indicated that. Nothing else I can say. All will be revealed eventually. All I can say is I want one and am holding off on getting the optical Rendu because of this product.

 

Do you know something about the mechanical drive they will use?

Toploader?

Thanks

 

Matt

[matthias]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

It would have to support blue ray and SACD to be of any interest. If it comes out without DSD over USB support there would be nothing new/worthwhile about it.

 

At $1K it should be possible to build a good transport, with digital only output but I am skeptical that they understand the CD transport difficulties at the depth that Linn did.

I  do not  think however thats the right design choice... kind of a "Spruce Goose" outdated approach.

 

PS Audio's approach makes  sense, where you read the disc into memory as a computer file to eliminate  transport issues and stay purely in the digital domain for computer file data

before attempting DAC audio  data output conversion. Then you can reduce all the problems of computer audio into a much simpler set of variables for precision tuning by jettisoning media player overhead and other unneeded processes and hardware associated with regular computer USB sources. The trick being how do you satisfy the copyright lawyers for SACD, etc.

 

If the Schiit does CD playback right that would be enough for me.

Interesting will be a comparison with the new Denafrips Avatar CD transport which is roughly in the same price range.

But I would really appreciate if the Schiit is a game-changer for CD transports and does sound better than the competition.

 

Matt

[matthias]

12 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Here you say CD only, but in another post you say it will do more than spin cd's, which gained back my interest....so which is it, will it only play one medium or will it play another medium as well?  Or did you mean it will do more like just another feature of a cd player (like usb vs analog out)?

 

Maybe an USB-Reclocker?

 

Matt