Audiolinux Server configurations, Software, Hardware, and Listening Impressions

[lmitche]

Prior to the NUC/Audiolinux exercise in the second half of 2018, many of us used a one box solution.  Now that we can hear the benefits that a NUC based endpoint brings to the table, what is the best server configuration to optimize our SQ?

 

Edit:

 

As Rajiv rightly points out below, the initial response to the SQ benefits of the NUC endpoint was that the server tweaks no longer mattered. With time, we have learned that server tweaks are as important as ever. The reality is that the NUC endpoint just moved the baseline in one big step, and despite using various isolation techniques between the dirty and clean sides, additional SQ gains can be made on the server side as well.

[lmitche]

Here is my story:

 

Without much forethought, I started with a Celeron Roonserver for my Celeron Roonbridge endpoint. This combination with both machines running AL headless in RAM sounded great. That was in mid-September.

 

Hearing the Celeron server, Roy insisted that I drag my HQplayer upsampling machine out of mothballs and configure it for use with Audiolinux headless as a Roonserver. He was right, the SQ impact was significant.  Although running the same software configuration as the Celeron server, the higher power, i7-6700k machine added density and better dynamics to the sound taking advantage of the superior capabilities made possible through the NUC endpoint. A later upgrade to a NUC7i7DNBE based endpoint and the realization that the LPS1.2 worked as power source added a truly musical presentation.

 

Having recently acquired a new Hdplex 200watt LPSU with two LT3045 outputs, I have been pondering where best to deploy it. My DAC, ISO Regen and NUC are all powered by LPS1.2s.  The Hdplex could be used as energizing supply for the LPS1.2s, but that seems like a waste.  It occurred to me that the HDdplex with it's multiple rails was the perfect solution as a single LPS to power a NUC server and related devices.

 

First off, my music is stored on a 3.5 inch hard disk enclosure containing a 4tb WD hard disk. I have powered it with a Sigma LPS and 3 amp MPaudio lt3045 dc to dc regulator set to 12volts.  Today I pulled the Sigma 11 and replaced it with one of the Hdplex LT3045 rails. So now with dual regulation a new level of SQ was achieved with yet another increase in dynamics and realism.

 

Later, I realized that the second lt3045 set at 12 volts was perfect for powering my 5ghz Linksys wireless extender used to connect to the internet, Roon control laptop and the wireless NUC endpoint. Again another jump, smaller this time, in SQ.

 

Next step is to power a newly configured NUC I7 based Roonserver with the 19 volt output of the Hdplex and compare to the big i7-6700k machine.

 

Stay tuned.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, rickca said:

I'd like to understand this dual regulation.  You are using an adjustable HDPLEX LT3045 rail followed by the 12V MPAudio MS-HPULN, is that correct?  At what voltage do you have the HDPLEX rail set?  I'm not sure I get how this dual regulation works.

 

Good idea to use the other HDPLEX LT3045 rail for networking gear.  How were you powering your wireless extender before?

By dual, I mean two serial connected regulators. In this case the Hdplex has one, set at 15 volts, followed by the MPaudio set at 12 volts. Make sense?

 

The wireless extender was powered by a Sigma 11 previously.

[lmitche]

10 hours ago, rickca said:

OK good that's what I expected.  So dropping it 3V between the HDPLEX and the HPULN doesn't generate too much heat?

After a cold startup with Roonserver scan the heatsinks are barely warm to the touch.

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

The sclk-ex server sounded bigger, warmer, more natural, larger soundstage, greater dynamics and bass punch

Similar impact here with additional server side enhancements.

[lmitche]

OK, so I had a long listening session with the new Hdplex 200 watt LPS and a I7 NUC server today. This report is based on testing done with Roonbridge and Roonserver.

 

One Hdplex LT3045 output was used at 15 volts to the HPULN and disk enclosure. The wifi extender on an entirely different LPS, left me free to power the NUC with either the Hdplex LT3045 at 15 volts or easily switch to the Hdplex 19 volt output.

 

Both sound great, but the 19 volt output was richer in a big way. An extended sound stage and image density was the result.

 

So I pulled the second LPS and powered the wifi extender directly from the second Hdplex lt3045 leaving the Hdplex powering everything. 5 rails creates a lot of flexibility.

 

SQ is terrific.

 

Would a more expensive LPS sound better ? Maybe, but this was a damn good, highly musical result. 

 

Later, I changed the NUC server power setting in the bios to low power just the I7 endpoint. This change delivered the best presentation I have ever heard of "Midnight Sugar" from the Three Blind Mice. Breathtaking.

 

So there you go! Any questions?

 

Larry

[lmitche]

24 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Thanks for the details report. Am I correct in assuming you were using LPS 1.2 earlier with the NUC streamer and now changed to Hdplex 19v out ? Which one sounded better in your system ?

Hi Dev,

 

My NUC endpoint has been powered by the LPS1.2 long before the Hdplex arrived. The LPS1.2 is the best sounding power supply I have used on the endpoint.

 

The report above was about powering the server and related peripheral devices. The 4 multi-rail outputs of the Hdplex 200 watt lps are perfect for this.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

[lmitche]

 

Clarification - the Hdplex 200 watt lps referenced above has 4 output rails not 5.

[lmitche]

18 minutes ago, rickca said:

Can you please clarify this statement?  Are you talking about the server or the endpoint?

Both are in low power mode.

[lmitche]

30 minutes ago, Bricki said:

Does the low power setting reduce the TDP to 10w from 15w? I left the power as is in my sonicTransporter i5 but I might try having a fiddle with it now...the BIOS on the sonicTransporter is a bit utilitarian compared to the nuc but hopefully I can find a similar low power setting.

 

Can a similar low power tweak be done on the NUC7CJYH? Or is the only option there the slider bars I mentioned in the other thread that you said were good if you wanted to power from an LPS 1.2 but had no effect on SQ?

Bricki,

 

Yes, low power mode moves the NUCi7DNXX to 10 watts.

 

And yes there are adjustable limits on the peak power consumption and processor modes on the Celeron and Pentium NUCs but I'd have to look at the bios to remember the details. The only model resident here at the moment is an i7 NUC.

 

Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

20 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Larry,

 

Just want to check if my understanding of your posts is correct.  Is the following table correct?

 

Time.             Mid Sep 2018                                                  Now

Config.           1.                     2.                      3.                      4.

Server.            7CJYH           i7-6700K          i7-6700K         i7DNBE (HDPlex200W)

Endpoint.       7CJYH           7CJYH              i7DNBE           i7DNBE (LPS-1.2)

SQ.                  Good/Great  Better               Even Better    Best

 

 

I have no idea. Things change too often here and rankings make no sense to me.

 

Anyway, people need to listen and decide for themselves.

[lmitche]

4 hours ago, greenleo said:

Get it.

 

Is it correct that your current system is i7DNBE both as server and endpoint with endpoint powered by LPS-1.2 and server powered by the HDPlex200W?

Hi Greenleo,

 

There are multiple systems here in various states that change all the time. Here is a snapshot of whats happened in the last few days and weeks.

• A wonderful Uptone Audio JS-2 power supply has come, and gone.This beautiful powerhouse sounds great powering NUC I7 based servers and endpoints.
• An audition of an RME ADI2 DAC has been underway powered by various LPSUs.
• The NUC I7 server referred to yesterday is now in a maximum power state to test the limits of temperature and upsampling resolution with Hqplayer embedded.
• In the i7-6700k system, the second LT3045 output from the HDPLEX is being used to externally power the Startech USB card.
• The I7-6700k machine will be dual powered once again to determine the benefits in a NUC world.
• In the next month a new fanless case, Intel CPU and motherboard will be ordered as the i7-6700k, and z270 based motherboard are now unobtainable.

Systems are chains of components in various hardware and software configurations with a ridiculously large number of combinations possible. Armed with various hypothesis derived from our listening experience, we can try to test those combinations most likely to yield a new level of SQ.

 

Which is best? I don't know. The good news is that every properly configured NUC based system tested here delivers a step function increase in SQ, so there are no bad systems. Remember that the NUC configurations used today by most of us has evolved over time from a stock NUC in a stock box with stock bios settings running a stock power supply. Even the first listen from that stock NUC with disk based LXQT AL configured as a single box Roonserver sounded much better then any other machine heard before. I have a friend running a Celeron NUC that way today and it beats the sound from any of his expensive CD players. He is delighted!

 

2018 was a banner year for CA innovations: Here is the list from my perspective. I am sure there are more.

• Dual powered motherboards
• JSSG360 DC cables
• JSSG360 USB cables
• NUCs generally
• AL headless ramboot
• LPS1.2 powered NUC endpoints

 

Can I rank the most important of these? Not really, and if I could, what is the point? Most of these innovations are additive and in various combinations we have managed to obtain a fantastic level of musical performance and for that I am grateful. Can we go further?  I don't know, but it wont be for a lack of trying.

 

Larry

 

 

 

[lmitche]

9 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Thank you very much Larry for the very detailed reply.  Anyway to dual power a NUC?

 

Leo

Not that I am aware of for a single NUC. We do manage to split tasks in a two NUC configuration, but it's not the same as powering the CPU separately from the motherboard.

[lmitche]

Interesting server candidate  especially for a hqplayer upsampling machine . . .

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13757/asus-launches-mini-pc-proart-pa90-a-tiny-workstation-w-core-i9-quadro

[lmitche]

Two followup points, the first a bit off topic:

 

1) An audition of an RME ADI2 DAC has been underway powered by various LPSUs. This DAC was tested powered by the Hdplex 200 watt lt3045 output at 15 volts, a Sigma 11 at 12 volts, and the UpTone JS-2 at 12 volts. The RME needs too much current to be powered by the LPS1.2. An I7 NUC/AL server endpoint pair running Roonserver/Roonbridge or Roonserver/Hqplayer embedded/NAA were used to test both bitperfect and dsd256 upsampled USB playback. The DACs single ended and balanced outputs were tested.

 

Operationally this DAC is really clean with no surprise pops or clicks in any mode or output. The JS-2 yielded the most musical results. Nevertheless the RME DAC never reached the dynamics and open sound of IFI microIDSD BL powered by an lps1.2. The DAC was returned to the vendor.

 

2) In the big i7-6700k server, the second Hdplex LT3045 output was moved from the wifi extender, set at 7.5 volts and used to feed an additional lt3045 chain to externally power the Startech USB 3 gen 2 card. The Hdplex fixed 12 volt power now feeds the wifi extender.  Attached to the Startech card is an external Startech USB hard disk enclosure and 4tb music drive, and a USB nic for network connectivity. Besides AC power, these are the only connections to this server.

 

The addition of external power driving the Startech USB card delivers a nice increase in image density and lowering of the noise floor just as it did in my pre-NUC one box setup. Using one supply to power three peripherals greatly reduces complexity.

 

I am looking forward to using the unused 19 volt Hdplex output to restore split power to the motherboard with an Hdplex 400 watt DC to DC atx power supply.

[lmitche]

16 minutes ago, ronfint said:

Just a quick note to confirm that the nuc8i7hvk performs well with AudioLinux as a roon server upsampling to dsd512. I have it in low power mode, and it is running quietly (in my basement) and it's fairly cool. Core temperatures have been mostly in the high 50s to mid 60s (C). Unlike my MacBook Pro, there have been no dropouts. The roon processing speed when upsampling to dsd512 is 2.6x. On my MacBook Pro it was 1.6.

 

My only problem was learning the linux command to get my network interfaces running. (It's   ip link set interface up. Thanks, Piero.)

Hi Rofint, this is great to know. Which Hqplayer settings are you using with the nuc8i7hvk? Do you have speedstep turned off in the bios?

[lmitche]

9 minutes ago, ronfint said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm not using HQ Player. I'm only upsampling in roon. I may try HQ Player in the future, but I'd like to sit back and enjoy for a while.

 

In the bios I turned off everything that I don't use — which is almost everything. There was no speedstep setting that I could see. One feature in the bios that I might take advantage of in the future is the ability to undervolt vcore and uncore settings, but I don't want to bother with this unless core temperatures start to rise too much.

Got it! Many thanks.

[lmitche]

14 minutes ago, jbparrish said:

 

 Hi Larry, 

 

this seems to be a significant complement for the IFI black. I recall you owned one for sometime before your current DAC. It sounds like a really nice alternative for a lower priced DAC that plays well in this environment and can be powered by the also less expensive LPS 1.2. Is that about right?

 

Thanks for all the intense research into this so very interesting subject.

 

John

John, I think you are referring to my ownership of the original microIDSD DAC prior to owning the Black Label. The Silver IFI DAC replaced two ESS based DACs, an Auralic Vega and a Mytek Brooklyn. Upsampling with Hqplayer to DSD512 with the microIDSD beat both of these much more expensive DACs. Now, I am not upsampling at all and the BL sounds great. The RME DAC has a terrific feature set, but I just couldn't get it to the same level. It was a relief to reinstall the IFI and hear that the musicality was still there.

 

With a Lush cable and three lps1.2s powering the NUC, ISO Regen and Vbus to the DAC it is not an inexpensive solution, but it sure delivers.

[lmitche]

Hi Luisma,

 

No, I have never run Ubuntu here.

 

My machine/OS history was an embedded processor J1900/AL back in 2013/14, then a i7-6700k system running Windows/Roon/Hqplayer,  and this past August the replacement of Windows with AL headless on the server and the addition of the NUC/AL headless endpoint.

 

Now, depending on the day, I may be running a Celeron, Pentium or I7 endpoint and/or a NUC i7 or i7-6700k server. I expect to replace the i7-6700k and z270 with a modern coffee lake and related motherboard in the next few weeks.

 

Having run Hqplayer for many years, I am surprised that Roon running in native mode sounds so good. In that period the Roon people were clearly enhancing their product and it delivers.

 

So, at least at the moment, I'm running a low tdp NUC endpoint and a high tdp server configured in low tdp mode, all bit perfect in Roon. 

 

I don't know where things will take me next. I hope this answers your questions.

 

Please do contribute to this thread. It going to be pretty boring if I'm the only poster.

 

Larry

[lmitche]

6 hours ago, Miska said:

 

It works very well with the stock PSU too, that's how I use it.

 

Remember to switch on the DSD Direct mode in the DAC settings and send it DSD256 always! Then you can switch between 50 and 150 kHz DSD filters. Note that you cannot use the headphone connectors in DSD Direct mode.

 

You can also send there 768/32 PCM with fairly OK results. Also improves performance notably compared to the built-in 8x (352.8/384k) digital filter, just like with iFi micro iDSD too.

 

iFi micro iDSD has just annoying firmware bug, that when powered up/plugged in, you first need to shortly play either something from 44.1k to 384k PCM, or alternatively DSD, before switching to 705.6/768k output. Otherwise it behaves incorrectly with lot of distortion...

 

My mistake, I did indeed listen to the stock smps, and you are right,  not bad.

 

I did indeed try direct dsd256 with good results.

 

I'm thinking the ifi performance over the RME is due to the the lps1.2 and its fast response to current demand. Unfortunately the RME would not run with the lps1.2.

 

Yes, that firmware bug on the ifi is annoying and is the reason I'm shopping for a new dac.

[lmitche]

30 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yes, if the Optane is anyway active, there's no reason to not use it...

 

My servers all ram boot the AL OS from a 32gb Optane stick. This is especially fast with Optanes crazy sequential read speeds.

 

At startup the Roon scripts are pointed to an Optane based Roonserver software and database in a separate optane partition. This way any database or software update is stored in non volatile memory. Everything else runs in ram. Music is either fed from a nas or external usb disk.

 

For the traffic generated by roon, optane is ideal as it is the fastest nonvolatile memory available for short bursty traffic.

 

We could debate why a ram disk based OS sounds better then a demand paged OS all day long. For most of us it just does, and we don't know why.

 

With AL it is trivial to test this one way or another just by turning ramboot on or off at boot when the yes or no question  is asked so people can have at it.

 

I still prefer zero nonvolatile storage in the endpoint, so the Usb stick boot and remove method or iscsi boot from server is preferred. Unfortunately Iscsi over wifi is unavailable, so the latter only works with wired connections. Iscsi will be revisited once the ether regen arrives.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, gsquared said:

 

Larry what size is the partition that you allocate to the Roonserver software and db?

Usually 12gb for boot, root and iscsi lun, 16gb for roon.

[lmitche]

8 hours ago, Forehaven said:

Larry, " I expect to replace the i7-6700k and z270 with a modern coffee lake and related motherboard in the next few weeks."  Really?  So interesting!  TBH, I'm surprised still to hear again that an i7 NUC sounds better than our super tweaked out pc's.  

 

Amazing progress in so little time

Hi Forehaven,

 

There are people that are looking for new tweaked out servers that are not NUC based, so the coffee lake and z370 type motherboard seem to meet those needs best.

 

This allows tweaking with special nic, USB cards and clocks in a way that is not possible on a NUC.

 

Will these solutions sound better then a NUC, I don't know.  How many angels dance on the head of a pin?

 

 

 

 

[lmitche]

54 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Due to travel, and other projects, it took a while, but I finally completed this study to my satisfaction. The procedure I followed was more or less as enumerated in my quoted post.

 

To reiterate - the key question was this: does the (Roon) server make a difference in SQ, when running:

• a) Roon Bridge on the endpoint?
• b) Squeezelite with large buffers on the endpoint?

I had already found the answer to a) to be yes, definitely. With regard to b), I found the answer was also yes, with the following specifics:

• endpoint was TLS DS-1
• Servers compared were my Dell and NUC7i7DNBE/Plato X7D.

However, there was a wrinkle. Looking at iftop on the endpoint, I noticed that while Roon Bridge maintains a throughput of about 4.5 Mbps, even with Squeezelite (SL), the throughput was only at about 9.2 Mbps. This was puzzling, as I had previously seen the initial throughput with SL to be up to 200Mbps with the i7DNBE as the endpoint. What was going on?

 

It turns out that the DXD streaming limitation I referred to in my DS-1 review was due to the DS-1's ethernet port auto negotiating a speed of 10 Mbps (yes 10, not 100) with the switch. This is the issue Adrian is working with Intel, but as of now, this is the case. What does this mean? It means that even with SL, the initial network traffic is not a firehose, but just a fatter hose. On a 10 minute 24/96 track, it took 3:45 before the network throughput dropped down to 0, once the file was in the SL buffer.

 

Could this be the reason I still answered yes to question b) above? Time for a different test. I now used:

• i7DNBE as the endpoint
• Server 1 was my Dell
• But what to use as server 2? I had run out of options, until I decided to just use my Dell M3800 laptop.

Surely, the Dell laptop (running Roon Server on Windows 10) would sound significantly worse than my more powerful Dell desktop running AL in RAM? Don't call me Shirley.  

 

First, I verified the network throughput behavior. As expected, Roon Bridge still drives a nice, flow controlled throughput of 4.5Mbps. But with SL, as expected, the firehose is observed for a few seconds, and then throughput drops to 0. Much better! So with this new configuration, back to the question:  does the (Roon) server make a difference in SQ, when running:

• a) Roon Bridge on the endpoint? heck yes. 
• b) Squeezelite with large buffers on the endpoint? yes, but... the delta is much smaller.

As @ray-dude analyzed - at some level, there should be no difference at all, since the server is essentially idle for the bulk of the playback. Yet, I do hear a (small, but repeatable) difference. I have no explanation, other than to report what I observed.

 

Certainly, one actionable conclusion is that when using SL, the server contribution to SQ is much smaller, so perhaps it isn't necessary to take heroic (or expensive) measures to optimize the server.

 

I welcome other reports comparing servers between Roon Bridge and SL.

 

Rajiv,

 

Nice report and lots to think about here.  Off hand, it would be interesting to have you set the NIC on the NUCI7DNXX to 10 mbps and compare that to the TLS-DS1 box both running Roonbridge.

 

I recently terminated my own Cat 6a Ethernet cables. OMG, they sounded great. Later I realized I'd screwed up, and crossed wires meant the cable was running at 10 mbps.

 

They have been left that way, but now I'm running wireless so don't use them.

 

More to come.

[lmitche]

15 hours ago, gsquared said:

@lmitche I'm working on setting up my Optane memory to hold my Roon DB. Do I need to first 'make filesystem' on the Optane drive (ie mkfs -t ext4 /dev/nvme0n1)?

Gsquared,

 

You need to setup the optane drive. I think I shared the partition sizes earlier. There are dozens of ways to do this.

 

Yes, any partition you don't copy from the AL image needs to be formatted.

 

I'm on my phone on vacation at fhe moment. Maybe someone else can provide the details in my absence as the details are at home.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry