Fas42’s Stereo ‘Magic’

[fas42]

16 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Fairies arent bizare, they just don't exist.

 

If you are referring to real effects, can you explain what matters? Please describe it specifically, followed by how you get, what ever it is, under control.

 

 

 

I can give you an example that's happening right now - my current Edifier speakers are working well enough to hear the impact of the ordinary quality mains on/off switch at the back - the contact quality degrades over time, meaning that the contact surfaces have to be refreshed, by switching off and back on again. So I bypass it. This is something I started doing 30 years ago, with almost everything.

 

Except I didn't do it well enough. The rough job I did, because it was very awkward to get at, is making it obvious that it's still sub-par - so I have to dive in again, and do a much cleaner bypass - proper cutting and joining of wires, and dressing, and stabilising of the cables. This is something that should have been done a week or two ago, but other things have kept cropping up - tomorrow is penciled in as the day to get it sorted.

 

How does it sound sub-par, right now? Over an extended period of time, a certain 'dirtiness' manifests, a subtle unpleasantness which stops one feeling completely at ease with the sound - I've heard this type of distortion artifact thousands of times before, and making sure all electrical linkages are as good as they can be is a major factor in eliminating this gremlin.

[March Audio]

Frank, what about the literally hundreds of individual connections and switches back to the electrical source?  Why does the last one matter so much?  How did you quantify its effect?

 

As @Archimago said, it's been fun! Best of luck with the magic. 

[Blackmorec]

33 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Frank, what about the literally hundreds of individual connections and switches back to the electrical source?  Why does the last one matter so much?  How did you quantify its effect?

 

As @Archimago said, it's been fun! Best of luck with the magic. 

I recommend you try the following. 

Ask an electrician to split your incoming mains supply via a Henley block, to feed a separate hi-fi only consumer unit. In that CU ask him to install a Doepke audio grade differential switch and a couple of 16A Gigawatt contract breakers. From there run dedicated lines to some mains plugs in your hi-fi room. 

When the work is complete, plug in your hi-fi and take a listen.  This is just one of the steps you can take in order to achieve extraordinary results from otherwise quite average hi-fi equipment. 

You see, its not only the last switch that matters; its all of them. Problem is, you can only do something about the last few.

[March Audio]

52 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

I recommend you try the following. 

Ask an electrician to split your incoming mains supply via a Henley block, to feed a separate hi-fi only consumer unit. In that CU ask him to install a Doepke audio grade differential switch and a couple of 16A Gigawatt contract breakers. From there run dedicated lines to some mains plugs in your hi-fi room. 

When the work is complete, plug in your hi-fi and take a listen.  This is just one of the steps you can take in order to achieve extraordinary results from otherwise quite average hi-fi equipment. 

You see, its not only the last switch that matters; its all of them. Problem is, you can only do something about the last few.

And therein lies the flaw in your logic.  Why do you think the last few connections make up for anything that has happened in the preceding potentially kms of cables and hundreds of connections?

 

You also miss the point that no electronics runs on the raw mains supply.

 

BTW I started my career (a very long time ago) as an electrician.

 

What on earth is an audio grade differential switch?  Utter nonsense. Any electrician will tell you so........well maybe some will after taking your money.

[March Audio]

OMG I have just searched it out.

 

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/audiophile-insights/doepke/

 

Silver plated rcd. Hahahaha. 🤣

 

"undesired inductive parts" - you do realise it connects to a transformer in the audio product which is absolutely inductive?

 

Have you really paid 600 Euros for this?

 

OK, seriously, have you considered what technical difference to the electrical supply silver plating in an RCD will make?  What benefit it will make?

[March Audio]

To expand on this, first question to ask is what is the alleged problem with a standard 10 euro RCD?

[botrytis]

Don't people realize dissimilar metals can cause oxidation and therefore acts as an insulator? This chemistry is 101. This is why, in the US, only copper is used for house wiring. In the 40 and early 50's aluminum wiring was used but oxidation of the connections caused more resistance which in turn soldered and then could cause a fire.

 

So, far, everything I have read in this thread, really doesn't explain anything. It is all hand waving and fairy dust, not actual proof of anything. Copper is the best  conductor of electricity, over a wide temperature range. Silver, unless it is treated, oxidizes readily. It then has a higher resistance.

[fas42]

9 hours ago, March Audio said:

Frank, what about the literally hundreds of individual connections and switches back to the electrical source?  Why does the last one matter so much?  How did you quantify its effect?

 

As @Archimago said, it's been fun! Best of luck with the magic. 

 

It's the proximity to the circuitry that's sensitive, that matters! The noise generating mechanisms are very subtle, the levels of interfering signals are right on the edge of being significant; it only requires a little distance, many times, to attenuate them to a point where they no longer matter. If it wasn't like that, then all the electrical crap in the houses around you would kill the SQ of the rig in front of you - it's a balance, you do enough so the interference effects are below subjective audibility.

 

No need to quantify it - if it makes its presence known, by changing the sound you hear, then the numbers are big enough ...

[fas42]

5 hours ago, botrytis said:

Don't people realize dissimilar metals can cause oxidation and therefore acts as an insulator? This chemistry is 101. This is why, in the US, only copper is used for house wiring. In the 40 and early 50's aluminum wiring was used but oxidation of the connections caused more resistance which in turn soldered and then could cause a fire.

 

So, far, everything I have read in this thread, really doesn't explain anything. It is all hand waving and fairy dust, not actual proof of anything. Copper is the best  conductor of electricity, over a wide temperature range. Silver, unless it is treated, oxidizes readily. It then has a higher resistance.

 

Yes, metal to metal contacts, exposed to air, are a big problem - this became obvious to me over 35 years ago. The ideal would be a single, continuous, solid core run of copper from the earliest point where you can do something about it, to the the coils of the speaker drivers. With the other bits as needed hooked in with best quality connection methods - things like resistors, transistors, etc 🙂. But the real world stops that being easy; it is indeed impossible ... so you do the next best thing. For me, that turned out to be soldering absolutely everything that could be, or using silver paste conductive greases, or solid state switches - all of these exclude the atmosphere gases, which are what do the damage.

[March Audio]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

It's the proximity to the circuitry that's sensitive, that matters! The noise generating mechanisms are very subtle, the levels of interfering signals are right on the edge of being significant; it only requires a little distance, many times, to attenuate them to a point where they no longer matter. If it wasn't like that, then all the electrical crap in the houses around you would kill the SQ of the rig in front of you - it's a balance, you do enough so the interference effects are below subjective audibility.

 

No need to quantify it - if it makes its presence known, by changing the sound you hear, then the numbers are big enough ...

Proximity? A poor high resistance connection will create a volt drop anywhere in the circuit.

 

What noise generating mechanisms?  What interfering signals?  Are generated by a closed switch operating at mains voltage?

 

That's right Frank, you don't need to quantify it, you just need to imagine it.

[fas42]

Just now, March Audio said:

Proximity?  What noise generating mechanisms?  What interfering signals?  That's right Frank, you don't need to quantify it, you just need to imagine it.

 

This comes from the book, that if you don't, or can't measure something, that it doesn't exist. By this reckoning, a huge chunk of the universe is merely a lot of vivid imagination, a fantasy, "because we don't know how it works" ... 😉

 

Somewhere I thought I read that science was there to serve mankind; rather than dictatorially state that "this is how it is!" - wonder when this got sorta messed up, 🙂.

[March Audio]

Just now, fas42 said:

 

This comes from the book, that if you don't, or can't measure something, that it doesn't exist. By this reckoning, a huge chunk of the universe is merely a lot of vivid imagination, a fantasy, "because we don't know how it works" ... 😉

 

Somewhere I thought I read that science was there to serve mankind; rather than dictatorially state that "this is how it is!" - wonder when this got sorta messed up, 🙂.

No it doesn't Frank, it comes from the book of asking  you to explain the mechanism behind the things you claim. Are you really suggesting that a simple electrical switch is beyond our scientific understanding?

 

Yes science serves mankind by taking us out of ignorance, superstition and the realms of fantasy.

[fas42]

Just now, March Audio said:

No it doesn't Frank, it comes from the book of asking  you to explain the mechanism behind the things you claim. Are you really suggesting that a simple electrical switch is beyond our scientific understanding?

 

Yes science serves mankind by taking us out of ignorance, superstition and the realms of fantasy.

 

Ah, so you have no knowledge of the world of electrical contacts, where papers are constantly coming out which explore how the surfaces degrade, and can be enhanced in their electrical behaviour by various methods - makes sense, of course, 😁.

[March Audio]

21 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Ah, so you have no knowledge of the world of electrical contacts, where papers are constantly coming out which explore how the surfaces degrade, and can be enhanced in their electrical behaviour by various methods - makes sense, of course, 😁.

Eh? What are you talking about?

 

This is about your inability to explain the things you claim.

 

As I asked, can you explain and quantify the noise and interfering signals you talked about being allegedly generated in a closed mains voltage switch.

[fas42]

Just now, March Audio said:

Eh? What are you talking about?

 

This is about your inability to explain the things you claim.

 

As I asked, can you explain and quantify the noise and interfering signals you talked about being allegedly generated in a closed mains voltage switch.

 

Yes, as I thought ... try Googling Ragnar Holm, and the wonderful rabbit hole he went down ...you see, a closed mains switch is a bit nasty, and people in the field can easily detect its imperfections, coming out with, Glory Be! - measurements. We need no stinkin' quantum stuff to explain why noise can intrude into circuits, when one properly studies the parts ...

[botrytis]

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

It's the proximity to the circuitry that's sensitive, that matters! The noise generating mechanisms are very subtle, the levels of interfering signals are right on the edge of being significant; it only requires a little distance, many times, to attenuate them to a point where they no longer matter. If it wasn't like that, then all the electrical crap in the houses around you would kill the SQ of the rig in front of you - it's a balance, you do enough so the interference effects are below subjective audibility.

 

No need to quantify it - if it makes its presence known, by changing the sound you hear, then the numbers are big enough ...

Proximity to what? Hell, I had a mass spec next to a small Denon component system. No issues.

 

Sorry Frank, no physics in your explanation or actual science. It would help, if you actually explained things that way. What is obvious is you need to stop thinking that  music production is special. It isn't any different than anything else.

[opus101]

Apropos interfering signals, last night I watched a couple of episodes of 'Pints with Ayre' and in this one they mention (without too many details) the 'Ayre conditioner' which they developed as an upgrade from ferrite in that it doesn't need degaussing. They even use it on DC power rails  : 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecK4SBEvJEo

[fas42]

34 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Proximity to what? Hell, I had a mass spec next to a small Denon component system. No issues.

 

Sorry Frank, no physics in your explanation or actual science. It would help, if you actually explained things that way. What is obvious is you need to stop thinking that  music production is special. It isn't any different than anything else.

 

Proximity of the noise making device, or circuitry, to the analogue circuitry of the audio chain. Thought experiments: you place a charged up smartphone under the hood of the DAC; sit it top of the board; and, you replace the "good" mains switch with a worn out one, where the spring locking part has gone bad - we have a lamp here with an in cord switch with that very problem; you have to jiggle it regularly, because the light bulb starts spluttering. Yes, "extreme cases" - but how far away do instances of such electrical 'noise' need to be, or how low in level, for them not to be a problem?

 

Music production is special, if you want realistic presentation - everyday stereo is trivial, but getting a convincing illusion requires this attention to detail ... the ear/brain is very fussy, and the slightest hint of disturbing anomalies kills it, stone dead. That, unfortunately, is the nature of the beast ...

[March Audio]

3 hours ago, botrytis said:

Proximity to what? Hell, I had a mass spec next to a small Denon component system. No issues.

 

Sorry Frank, no physics in your explanation or actual science. It would help, if you actually explained things that way. What is obvious is you need to stop thinking that  music production is special. It isn't any different than anything else.

There aren't aren't any explanations at all, let alone anything scientific.

[fas42]

2 hours ago, March Audio said:

There aren't aren't any explanations at all, let alone anything scientific.

 

Because you can't understand that the key to evolving a playback system to a high standard, my way, is actually a step by step form of troubleshooting, you are unlikely to grok the process. Genuine research into things poorly understood, in science as well, often requires much troubleshooting - brillantly solving something on a piece of paper, or assembling an experiment which gives exactly the right numbers, first time you plug it in, is rarely how it happens ...

[Blackmorec]

19 hours ago, March Audio said:

To expand on this, first question to ask is what is the alleged problem with a standard 10 euro RCD?

It all depends on what you want to listen to. A cardboard cutout, 2 dimensional misrepresentation of the original event, or 3 dimensional, completely immersive music that moves your soul. 

Bottom line, your €10  RCD takes your €5,000 amplifier and $10,000 speakers and produces results you could have had for 1/10th or less of the €€€€ 

 

I’m guessing that you have absolutely no clue about the depth of magical emotion and feelings that are locked into those recordings. But I very much assure you its your loss. 

 

I don’t for one moment dispute that the prices audiophiles pay for great sound kit is ludicrous, but hey, Ferraris and Porches aren’t cheap either. 

9 hours ago, botrytis said:

Proximity to what? Hell, I had a mass spec next to a small Denon component system. No issues.

 

Sorry Frank, no physics in your explanation or actual science. It would help, if you actually explained things that way. What is obvious is you need to stop thinking that  music production is special. It isn't any different than anything else.

Wow that Denon must have sounded great, what with the  Mass Spec’s rough pump and Turbo pump chugging and whining away.  And its not like you can just shut down and vent the mass spec whenever you want to listen…….. so I’m guessing you’re talking about background music, there to mask the cacophony of a running mass spectrometer 

[March Audio]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Because you can't understand that the key to evolving a playback system to a high standard, my way, is actually a step by step form of troubleshooting, you are unlikely to grok the process. Genuine research into things poorly understood, in science as well, often requires much troubleshooting - brillantly solving something on a piece of paper, or assembling an experiment which gives exactly the right numbers, first time you plug it in, is rarely how it happens ...

No Frank, like everyone else, I just can't understand what you keep waffling on about.  You make no sense.  It's why you have this thread all to yourself and people rarely contribute.

 

Like I'm about to do, they see the futility and just give up.  It's a waste of time.

[March Audio]

3 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

It all depends on what you want to listen to. A cardboard cutout, 2 dimensional misrepresentation of the original event, or 3 dimensional, completely immersive music that moves your soul. 

Bottom line, your €10  RCD takes your €5,000 amplifier and $10,000 speakers and produces results you could have had for 1/10th or less of the €€€€ 

 

I’m guessing that you have absolutely no clue about the depth of magical emotion and feelings that are locked into those recordings. But I very much assure you its your loss. 

 

I don’t for one moment dispute that the prices audiophiles pay for great sound kit is ludicrous, but hey, Ferraris and Porches aren’t cheap either. 

Wow that Denon must have sounded great, what with the  Mass Spec’s rough pump and Turbo pump chugging and whining away.  And its not like you can just shut down and vent the mass spec whenever you want to listen…….. so I’m guessing you’re talking about background music, there to mask the cacophony of a running mass spectrometer 

So, just to ask the question again because you didn't address it, what is the alleged problem with the normal 10 euro RCD, and how does a 600 euro silver plated one fix it?

[Blackmorec]

47 minutes ago, March Audio said:

So, just to ask the question again because you didn't address it, what is the alleged problem with the normal 10 euro RCD, and how does a 600 euro silver plated one fix it?

Hi there, 

The answer is very simple. There is no problem with the €10 RCD and it will probably save your life in the event your body happens to provide a convenient path to ground for your 230V.  And it works fine in a hi-fi system too.  However upgrade your mains supply as I suggested and only then will you realise how much you’re giving up. After all, you can’t miss something you’ve never heard, but once you have heard it,  you’ll get my point. The €10 RCD works perfectly but is a major limiting factor in achieving truly great sound quality.  The shop where I bought the Doepke offers a full 30 day money back guarantee if not satisfied. I very much doubt they’ve had many back as they truly make a very significant difference to SQ that is not at all difficult to hear. 

[March Audio]

8 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Hi there, 

The answer is very simple. There is no problem with the €10 RCD and it will probably save your life in the event your body happens to provide a more convenient path to ground for your 230V.  And it works fine in a hi-fi system too.  However upgrade your mains supply as I suggested and only then will you realise how much you’re giving up. After all, you can’t miss something you’ve never heard, but once you have heard it,  you’ll get my point. The €10 RCD works perfectly but is a major limiting factor in achieving truly great sound quality.  The shop where I bought the Doepke offers a full 30 day money back guarantee if not satisfied. I very much doubt they’ve had many back as they truly make a very significant difference to SQ that is not at all difficult to hear. 

So if it's fine why is it going to improve the sound of my hifi?

 

You appear to be contradicting yourself.  You say it's fine, can provide no reason why it's not fine, and then say it's limiting the sound of the hifi.

 

So what technical improvement does a silver plated rcd provide to improve sound?