Firewire Differences?

[hifitubes]

I'm taking the plunge into Firewire on Windows 7 with an AF1.

 

Could someone summarize what I should be looking at for solid FW cards, PCI-E versions?

 

I'll look closer at the comments here, but if anyone has a spare cable, I'd love to offer some tubes or cables for it.

 

I have an old email from Daniel about the AF1 having no GUI, does it now have one for Windows?

 

thanks!

Jon

 

[Codifus]

........hifitubes, if you're going to go firewire, get a Mac. Firewire is Apple's baby and every mac has had it built in to their motherboard since the PowerMac G3 or even before. Even the very 1st iPod had only a firewire interface, but Apple later bowed to pressure and converted to USB.

Of course firewire on PC will work, but good luck getting bit-perfect data and resolving any potential driver issue headaches that are bound to occur. Firewire is not native to windows, unlike USB, invented by intel, which happens to make the vast majority of motherboard for windows PCs.

 

CD

 

[barrows]

You want a Firewire card that uses a Texas Intsruments Firewire chip for best performance.

 

[hifitubes]

Hmmm, pretty sure I am going with the AF1 on Windows.

 

There is the new Fireface UFX with USB3 support and AES and BNC word i/o. A little more pricey and has, AD, DA, headphone monitoring, and mic preamps....all things I already have; it is not a dedicated transport like the AF1.

 

[SteveChicago]

My understanding (based on Weiss' site and my experience) is that any FW cable will work nicely as long as it's of decent quality and the run is short (2M max). That's one advantage of FW. No need for expensive FW cable.

 

Steve

 

[Forehaven]

I'm closer to buying a fw cable now. I re-read Georges post:

 

I dismissed the Oyaide FW cable becuase the Verge Labs cable I have been using sounded different, and better to my ears. It did have merits, but extended listening showed the 9 -4 pin cable with a 4F/6M adapter was more relaxed sounding.

This morning, I hooked up a 9-6 pin Verge Labs cable. At my normal listening levels, the top end seemed more extended and airy. A little more splash. This was the same positives heard with the Oyaide.

But as the volume was increased the airiness and sizzle became very gritty and fatiguing. This was also my take on the Oyaide FW cable.

The Verge Lab cable with FW power isolated sounds better as the level is increased. I guess there is some noise coming into the interface even from the FW power even when powered from an external supply. This was the reason I with to 9-4 cables and adapters to begin with.

I have the Oyaide out on loan, but will try it with pin one isolated with kapton tape to see if this makes it a better cable in MY system. I suspect it will bring it at least to the level of the Verge Labs cabling. Not having the 4F/6M adapter has to be a positive.

Here is a link to how FW plugs are wired.

 

http://www.interfacebus.com/Design_Connector_Firewire.html#b

 

That website is very useful. But if I understood the site correctlty, using a 9 pin to 4 pin, then you have already eliminated the voltage and ground found on both 9 and 6 pins right? Then why the need for the adapter on 9 to 4 pin fw cables?

 

I think the granite digital cables look good at a reasonable price.

 

Chris

 

[Panelhead]

The 6 pin FW400 cable has the power line. The four pin does not. All FW cables have a ground, the 4 pin uses the shield, the 6 pin can have a power ground and the shield, and the 9 pin FW800 cables have the shield, power ground, and each twisted pair has a signal ground. This allows the higher bandwidth.

I no longer use the 9-4 cable with a 4F/6M adapter. Took a 9-6 cable, opened it up and snipped the white wire. Then put 3:1 heatshrink to protect. Has to be better than the adapter.

 

George

 

[Forehaven]

Thanks George! Just to make sure I got it, you're saying then that even the 4 pin shield is a problem and that by using the adapter, you eliminate the shield, as well as the power ground and signal ground in the 4 pin/6pin/9 pin respectfully?

 

And, if I got this right, you eliminated the '2' (that is also '1') wire in the 6 pin end? Smart.

 

Thanks again for clarifying this confusing topic for me! lol

 

[Panelhead]

I have not tried isolating the power ground in a FW cable. I have read that the ground is needed for the cable to work.

What the adapter and the cables with a snipped white power wire do is isolate the FireWire buss power.

Not all dacs may benefit from isolating the buss power. It is easy to hear with the 350.00 interface/preamp/room correction box I use. I would like to power my Apogee Duet from an external power supply. It is designed to operate off the buss power like the Music Streamer dacs.

 

 

George

 

[AudioExplorations]

All, I have just got hold of a Oyaide Neo firewire cable 6-9 pin. I am looking to remove the bus power transmission.

 

I hear of alot of people using firewire in a 6-4 pin configuration (using adapters), leaving only the 4 data signals as active within the cable (+ the outer shield of course). Others do this by snipping the white bus power wire only and leaving the ground intact.

 

http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php/IEEE_1394_Serial_Bus_-_Firewire

 

I would like to achieve this by using some electrical tape as others have mentioned in this thread. What I would like to do is instead of covering up ONLY pin #8 (power) at the 9pin end, cover up the entire top row of pins within the 9 pin socket (pins 5,6,7,8,9). This would have the same effect as the use of a 9-4 pin adapter (i.e. no ground). This simply because it is easier to tape within the 9pin plug (plus this prevents the power running down the cable at the mac mini end, opposed to covering up the single pin at the 6-pin (DAC) end and having the power running through the cable where it is then isolated at the DAC end).

 

Has anyone tried it this way? seems by far the easiest way to achieve bus power isolation.

 

[gsquared]

jdebonth, I just ordered the same cable (Oyaide Neo 6-9 pin) and I came across this thread.

 

Did you end up trying this (covering up the entire top row of pins on the 9-pin side)?

 

Gary

 

 

[AudioExplorations]

Gary, yes I did try however I found it difficult to insert the plug with the layer of electrical tape, the interference was too tight and it seemed like I was going to damage something.

 

What I ended up doing was physically removing the live pin within the 9-pin socket. I bent it backwards as close to the base as possible within the plug, wiggled it up and down a few times and it snapped off right at the base. I confirmed with a multimeter that the voltage had been removed.

 

Took a bit of courage at first but it's an elegant method to kill the live wire.

 

[gsquared]

Yes, that would take some courage to permanently modify the cable.

 

How does it sound now compared to stock? Is there a noticeable improvement?

 

 

 

[same same but different]

Nobody ever mentioned here the major point related to Firewire cables: is analogue part of your DAC powered by the same power as digital part, or it is separate external?

 

For a simple stupid DAC that is fully powered by FW cable - wires quality is critical. It's the same as for any other analogue part of the system - power cable has important role. For a DAC that require separate external analogue power FW cable isn't so important, unless you've god extremely strong RF noise around.

 

[jtwrace]

I ordered the 9 pin to 4 pin adapter and the GoldX 4 pin to 6 pin cable.

 

The Mini doesn't see the LIO-8. When I plug the cheapo cable in that is 9 pin to 6 pin all works fine.

 

Have you guys seen some adapters that work and some that do not?

 

BTW-I have an extra GoldX cable if someone has an adapter that they want to trade.

 

[Panelhead]

I have only seen two types of 4F/6M FW adapters. Ones with three ribs and ones with five ribs. None of the three rib worked for me. All the five rib did.

They all look the same. No matter the brand. Maybe there are only two factories in China making these adapters.

I do not use adapters anymore. Just clip the white wire close the the FW800 plug. Also look for cables that have foil over each twisted pair. The twisted pair are the data cables. They also have braid over all the wires.

I cut several cables open to look at construction. The worst is the flat LaCie cable. It is way out of spec. Just flat spaced construction. No twisted pairs, no shielding. And the power lead next to data wires.

I have seen it mentioned as a cable where a expensive FW cable sounds better than a generic. A round generic works better than the LaCie also.

Send a PM and I will mail a working FW adapter. Merry Xmas.

 

George

 

[jtwrace]

George,

 

Doens't look like any. I'll send a PM.

 

[losingmyreligion]

 

Jason,

 

The 4pin to 9pin adapters seem especially finicky.

 

Not sure why. I think I gave up on it.

 

You can also pull the power pin, or put a very small piece of kapton tape on the power pin.

 

clay

 

[jtwrace]

George,

 

This is the white wire that you speak of I believe. Right?

 

This is a $3 FW cable that I picked up last night.

 

[Panelhead]

That bundle is the data lines. On 4.00 cables they are separate. The cable spec is two twisted pairs.

 

George

 

[tmornini]

I use a Oyaide Neo+ 9->6 pin between my Mac Mini and Weiss DAC 202.

 

Way better than the $20 cable at the local computer store.

 

And that makes me cry a little on the inside. This should not be the case! :-(

 

 

[dapost]

I would like to thank George for his kind offer to send (to the other side of the world) a perfectly working 4->6 adapter.