Firewire Differences?

[Panelhead]

I paid 126 USD for mine. The price in Japan is very fair. But the forwarding company scalps you. Plus you pay shipping twice. I registered, figured out to cut and paste the bilingual address. Wanted a 1 meter FW and a 5 meter QAC -202 balanced cable. But never figured out what all the fees were going to end up at.

I suspect the forum always likes new members, especially if they add a little to the mix.

Back to the Oyaide FW, I saw mentioned about molding it to isolate FW power. Asked asiaweiss and they said it is perfect for use with Weiss products as is. One I have a cheapo KRK Ergo. not a Weiss product and have found the Ergo sounds better powered by a modified wallwart and with FW power isolated.

Listening to the Oyaide cable there was a large difference in sound. With the Oyaide the top end was clearer and more prominent. I do not know if this is because the Verge Labs cable I normally use isolates FW power, or if the Oyaide just gives a hotter top end.

What is the best way to isolate the power with the Oyaide?

 

George

 

[Erwin S]

George,

 

I did it like I wrote last week: order the cable (50€) from a shop in Japan via Rakuten. BTW, Oyaide themself seem to have a webstore also, but completely in Japanese, so no way of figuring out how to buy from them. After a failed attempt, I managed to give Rakuten my "Tenso address". As I understand this is an actual address from Tenso, a shipping company. Shipping cost seems fair: some 15€ + 5€ for handling. So, I am at 70€ now, which is the same as WeissAsia seems to be charging to start with. I am not under the impression that additional shipping cost will be added, but I will post how the story ends... Hoping to be near 91€ total after VAT and duties.

 

It does take rather long. After finally closing the order this Monday, it will be next Monday for the shipping.

 

[cfmsp]

 

My two Oyaide cables arrived yesterday, exactly one week (to the day) after ordering online. Shipping was from Rakuten to Tenso, and then Tenso on to me. I thought the time it took was very acceptable given the re-shipping and coming from Japan to NY.

 

Fees were acceptable as well. the two cables cost $129. I paid less than $10 for the local shipping, $5 and change for the re-shipping, and $17 for international air. So, effectively the re-shipping cost my $15.

 

clay

 

[Panelhead]

Started out with the 0,6 m Oyaide 9 pin by 6 pin btween my Mini and the Ergo dac. The sound was a little little light weight.

Put the 1 m Verge Labs 9 pin by 4 pin with a genaric 4 x 6 pin adapter. The resulting sound exhibited more body, and female voice has more flesh.

Do not know if it is just isolating the FW power from the Mac Mini, but the Verge Labs wins for now. I have a 9 pin by 6 pin Verge Labs cable to try next to take the FW out of the comparison.

One thing for the Oyaide. It is extremely well built. And looks like a 100.00 cable. The Verge look a lot like the junk I have picked up off the net and ebay. Clear plastic jacket, molded plugs, tinned braid shields.

Glad I ordered the Oyaide, it would kill me to know that maybe better sonics were available by just trying another FW cable.

 

George

 

 

[rydenfan]

George,

 

any chance you would be willing to let me demo your Oyaide? I use the GoldX cable right now and was considering buying the Oyaide. After your comparison I am a big unsure. Maybe I could demo your and then buy it from you if I prefer it?

 

[ted_b]

their GoldX cable or something different? I've tried many FW cables and settled on the relatively cheap $18 GoldX 6 pin-6pin (with 4 pin adapter to remove power) as the best sounding for my Macbook server...but have not tried the up-till-your feedback "promising" Oyaide or anything over $100.

 

[earflappin]

I understand how isolating the power leg from the DAC could potentially improve sonics by eliminating noise from the computer and ground loops, but that can be accomplished using an adaptor.

 

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why a higher quality cable for the Firewire data legs would improve performance? It would seem that either the data transfers correctly or not.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. Like Ted_b, I'm using a GoldX cable now and trying to decide if it makes sense to try something better.

 

[Panelhead]

I use a 9 pin to the Mac Mini and 6 pin to the Ergo. The oyaide does not sound as good as a Verge Labs 9 x 4 cable and a 4 x 6 adapter.

But I have an Apogee Duet that is FireWire powered. I plan on trying the Oyaide with it down the road.

Shoot a PM with address. I will box it up.

There are two websites that are the same, kind of. Akuman.com and Vergelabs.com. The have a pro-nitro top of the line and the regular Verge Labs. I have no issues with the Verge Labs interfacing the Ergo. All the genaric cables tried made the Ergo unstable after a while. Have not seen this with the Oyaide either.

I have several Gold X FW cables. But have only used them to connect external drives to the Ergo. I have not seen a Gold X FW 800 cable.

Like KRK told me, the Ergo seems to require a cable that is completely up to spec. Shielding issues and connector seem very unforgiving. The Duet worked with everything.

May be firmware or driver related, the Duet drivers are rock solid.

I would butcher up the Oyaide to remove the power and ground. But then it would not work with buss powered interfaces.

Isolating FW power is audible. It smooths the sound a little when isolated.

The Oyaisde is easily the best looking FW cable I have seen. Extremely well made.

 

George

 

[rydenfan]

George,

 

PM sent, thanks so much

 

This is the GoldX 800 to 400 I use for the Mini to the Weiss DAC2

http://www.granitedigital.com/firewire1394bdiagnosticcables.aspx

 

[cfmsp]

 

 

"Can anyone offer an explanation as to why a higher quality cable for the Firewire data legs would improve performance?"

 

Same as for Async USB - no one knows. Shielding / noise rejection for one. Google "eye pattern" for an understanding that the information is not transmitted in the way you probably imagine.

 

 

"It would seem that either the data transfers correctly or not."

 

That's the same argument as the guys who don't believe anything can make a difference without changing the bits! What side are you on here anyway?! ;0

 

clay

 

[cfmsp]

 

The cables you point to look to be good build quality, and Granite has a good rep, but these are not the Gold-X cables that most here seem to use. GOld-X cables have a distinctive gold foil shield underneath the transparent outer covering.

 

http://www.jditech.com/product/product-list.asp?suprt=&brnd=GP&sbct=&ct=8

 

They are not made (to the best of my knowledge) with 9pin ends needed for FW800. The FW800 cables offered from the Gold-X providers are called NitroAV I think.

 

Also, no disrespect to George and his results (which I certainly appreciate him sharing), but I personally would not be too concerned about the results of his tests. As he has stated, the KRK Ergo device seems very sensitive to Firewire cables, so there's something going on there that would seem to invalidate extrapolations about similar performance in other systems.

 

just my perspective,

clay

 

[roscoeiii]

ted_b,

 

Can you point me to a 4 to 6 pin adaptor that you mentioned? I've got a 6-pin Firewire 400 port on each end, and it looks to me that what I'd need to do to get the power removed from the equation is to get a 6 to 4 pin cable, and put a 4 to 6 pin adaptor on one end to get the power portion out of the chain from my Mac Mini to the Weiss DAC2.

 

[ted_b]

GoldX (hence no power) then a 4-to-6 adapter. I got the adapter from Amazon, I think. I'll go looking in my email and update this.

 

[Panelhead]

If there is an audiophile grade 4F/6M adapter I would like to try it. I have found two types of generic adapters so far. One with three ribs on the sides of the plastic housing. The other with five ribs.

I have not had any luck with the ones with three ribs. The Ergo never indicates a FW signal. I have four with 5 ribs and all work.

I bought a couple of the 3 rib model from Markertek. They were the most expensive tried.

There is a definately improvement in sonics with FW power isolated. The power supply used is a switcher. But passes through a 47,000 ufd 4 pole Jensen cap to remove the hash.

 

George

 

[roscoeiii]

Hi George,

 

Do you recall where you got your 5 rib adaptors? Good to know what to avoid, but I'd also like an idea where I can get one that I can confident will work.

 

[Panelhead]

Take a look at item #361 at www.monoprice.com. I have picked up a couple there and they seem to work fine.

If anyone knows a source for a better one, please share with the rest of us.

 

George

 

[ted_b]

online vendor called VPI. I just ordered a couple different 5 ribbers from Amazon. Will report back.

 

[Panelhead]

I purchased two 3 rib apapters from Marketek and neither worked. I tried checking continuity versus a five rib model and couple now measure any difference. But the contacts in the plugs are a little different in layout. Might be a contact issue. But I tried to connect to a hard drive via firewire and the mini could not see the external drive with the 3 rib in the signal path. Worked just fine with a 5 rib model. The Ergo acted the same.

 

George

 

[Forehaven]

Rob made a good point earlier, that if using a fw drive/cable and PM, the drive/cable shouldn't come into the equation of sound at all if using memory mode. The music being heard is off ram, not from the drive/cable directly. Just interesting to hear the sonic benefits being described and trying to understand it.

 

[Panelhead]

Several have said the cable between an external drive and computer has little effect on the sound. The cable between the computer and interface is more critical.

But some have posted that the cable between the drive and computer is important. And other feel that a cable with continuity, insulation, and shielding is all you need in every application.

My limited experience with high end FW cable is limited to the Oyaide. It worked great, looks like a 1,000.00 cable, and was fairly priced. But did not work any better than the best general quality FW cables I have tried. It did easily bested the 2.00 Internet cables I have tried.

I think after the 20 - 30 dollar cables it is a case of diminishing returns.

 

George

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

"I think after the 20 - 30 dollar cables it is a case of diminishing returns."

 

George, I realize that you said "I think", and therefore seem not to be over generalizing here, but I still think it's important to point out that when it comes to cable's shielding from noise and other unknown impacts (e.g. eliminating power leg), every environment is different, and so it's hard for any of us to claim that Firewire cables shouldn't make a difference, since for some it might indeed.

 

OTOH, (progressively more expensive) Firewire cables do seem to make much less difference (if any) on sonics than do USB cables (including Async USB).

 

So, I'm basically agreeing with you, with the caveat that prudent audiophiles should still verify that Firewire cables don't improve their sound.

 

cheers,

clay

 

 

 

[Panelhead]

Purchased an Oyaide. It was great, no weird noise, which the Ergo does with poor quality. But not as good as the cables from Verge Labs with the power leg isolated.

I would liked to try a high end cable with 9 pins on one end and 6 on the other. And power legs disconnected. Got to be better than my 9 to 4 pin cables with a 4F/6M adapter. Still looking for it.

Asiaweiss told me the cable as delivered is optimal for a Weiss converter. Did not have the heart to say I use a 500.00 converter and disconnecting the power leg is audible with it.

Up the page there is a link to custom FW cables. They will clip the power leg. Need to try one I guess.

I cannot say that high end FW cables do not make a difference either. Just that the Oyaide was no improvement sonically. But the looksare so good I almost ordered two more to clip the power in one and a longer one for my Apogee Duet.

Got an A/V Nitro to try on the Duet now. It has huge ferrites. May help the FW buss power.

 

George

 

[barrows]

very easy to disable the power leg on a Firewire cable. First find which pin on the Firewire connector is the power leg, then cut a small piece of Kapton tape, just wide enough to cover this pin inside the connector (use an Xacto knife for best results). A pair of tweezers is handy for placing the tape inside the connector, and the tape can be "burned" into place by rubbing it down with a toothpick. This will allow one to easily audition a given cable with and without the power leg active. If one often plugs and unplugs their gear, you might have to replace the tape occasionally, but you would be surprised how tough Kapton is.

Of course, in any case you still have the ground leg attached to the computer: I do not think Firewire will work without the ground connection.

 

[Forehaven]

George said "Several have said the cable between an external drive and computer has little effect on the sound. The cable between the computer and interface is more critical."

 

That's a very good point I didn't think about. Thanks for pointing that out. I too agree that ideally it be best just to have a cable made with no power, but for some cheap tape, and that $10 Gold X fw cable, it's hard to beat.

 

Great thread guys, I learned a ton.

 

Chris

 

 

[Panelhead]

I dismissed the Oyaide FW cable becuase the Verge Labs cable I have been using sounded different, and better to my ears. It did have merits, but extended listening showed the 9 -4 pin cable with a 4F/6M adapter was more relaxed sounding.

This morning, I hooked up a 9-6 pin Verge Labs cable. At my normal listening levels, the top end seemed more extended and airy. A little more splash. This was the same positives heard with the Oyaide.

But as the volume was increased the airiness and sizzle became very gritty and fatiguing. This was also my take on the Oyaide FW cable.

The Verge Lab cable with FW power isolated sounds better as the level is increased. I guess there is some noise coming into the interface even from the FW power even when powered from an external supply. This was the reason I with to 9-4 cables and adapters to begin with.

I have the Oyaide out on loan, but will try it with pin one isolated with kapton tape to see if this makes it a better cable in MY system. I suspect it will bring it at least to the level of the Verge Labs cabling. Not having the 4F/6M adapter has to be a positive.

Here is a link to how FW plugs are wired.

 

http://www.interfacebus.com/Design_Connector_Firewire.html#b

 

George