Consensus about upsampling to 512 DSD

[Jud]

30 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

This place is really creepy. 

 

I think this is the point in the drama where everyone can afford to calm down a bit.  

 

You said you saw no improvement; folks wanted to know in more detail what you saw no improvement *from*.  This being an audio forum, people can get impassioned about funny stuff like that.  Heck, 99.9% of the population never heard of a "MQA," whatever that is, and look at the threads here....(!)

 

So: Everybody, deep cleansing breaths....

[Jud]

I think just the thermal noise of the electronics raises the noise floor to somewhere around the 21 bit range. But I've always been a little fuzzy about how the math used by the DSP algorithms relates to decibels coming out of the speakers or headphones.

[Jud]

1 minute ago, jabbr said:

 

Phasure NOS1a with FirstWatt J2 as one not unicorn example. 

 

The iFi Micro BL as another example where you can either send the output direct or via the amplification stage (it has a headphone amp) — better direct.

 

You obviously have him confused with someone to whom facts matter.  He likes stirring the pot and seeing who answers back. And he still likes it even after you’ve given a correct reply.

[Jud]

13 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

How a “volume control” works on a DSD stream may not be intuitive to you. The DSD stream literally has a component in the digital domain — the carrier at 22-25 MHz — and a component in the analog domain — the audio. The DAC can simply remove the digital carrier and leave the analog signal alone. 

 

The signal hasn’t been “mangled” rather the upsampling is done to a different level. 

 

 

If your amp likes a preamp then by all means use it, rest assured, however, that what the preamp is has doing has nothing to do with volume control, rather amplitude and impedance matching. It will work just as well as when you “volume control” your DSD512 stream — to keep this focused on the topic of this thread...

 

Again, use your preamp along with volume control in your DSD upsampling software! It will work just as well if not better. 

 

BTW: the Bricasti DAC only accepts up to DSD128, so the conclusions you’ve drawn from this example may not apply to the topic at hand. also really hard to know what any one DAC is doing under the hood. 

 

All of these examples will of course be quite specific. Some folks will have good experiences using a preamp, others will prefer what they hear from a digital volume control.

 

I’ve been curious to hear what going direct sounds like, figuring there’s no preamp like no preamp, but three things have held me back:

 

- If I make a mistake with the volume control going direct, my system could possibly play “Pop Go The Speakers.”

 

- I have multiple sources, so going direct with one would involve rearranging wires and hassle.

 

- I am guessing my preamp is of high enough quality that a digital volume control and DAC output section might have to go some to beat it. These days, DACs seem to be developing somewhat faster than other components, so I’m reluctant to spend a lot on one.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Whitigir said:

Audiventory vs Xivero, which one has better DSD upconversion from PCM ? 

 

I don’t know, but as I recall Archimago said some good things about the Audiventory results. I use Audiventory and like it.

[Jud]

42 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Important to set the volume limits appropriately in HQPlayer, which allows this e.g. never go above -6dB

 

Yeah, I experienced zero attenuation using HQP with my desktop system a couple of times - no fun. Speakers survived, but I wouldn’t want to try it too often.

 

I did not have the “never go above” setting on.

[Jud]

Just now, mansr said:

Audiventory applies a very steep lowpass filter near 20 kHz (I don't recall the exact number). Those with a fear of filters should probably avoid it.

 

Those with a “fear of filters” would want to avoid digital audio altogether.

 

I don’t know whether Audiventory still offers a minimum phase filter to avoid pre-ringing. I believe there is also a “wideband” option, though you’d have to ask Yuri precisely what it does.

[Jud]

13 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Thanks. I was planning on trialing both HQPlayer and XXXHighEnd. When I googled the latter I got a lot of porn sites so got distracted (just kidding @PeterSt).I'm not sure if XXXHighEnd does "native realtime upsampling" but suffice to say upsampling is not the only reason for me to explore other players.

 

I note my DSD512 DSD capable DAC also offers PCM upsampling to 210 kHz. Is it just me or does that sound like an unusual number.It does subjectively change the sound for the better but varies a bit with the recording.

 

It means your DAC uses ASRC (asynchronous sample rate conversion) to reduce jitter. This method is AFAICT not thought to be as effective as the similarly named but different asynchronous USB input.

[Jud]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

Yes, you are sort of right. But why does the initial question have to phrased in terms of a false premise about it being  "the best SQ possible". There isn't a consensus and won't be, and if even if there was, there's no way to establish it.

I don't understand why people can't just accept that we have different ideas about what sounds good; or that our idea of what sounds best can change with different playback equipment. 

 

There's a consensus among the people that already like it better that it is better.

 

Why not just ask in a non pejorative way what the people who upsample to DSD 512 think is the best way to do it? 

 

Agreed.

 

I must say, however, though I wasn’t expecting it, DSD512 sounds appreciably better to me than even DSD256. I can’t think of a good reason why this should be so, but that’s my subjective impression.

[Jud]

15 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Some good objective reasons to explain this discussed by @Miska and @mansr in this short (3 pages) thread:

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/43621-ifi-audio-ships-pro-idsd-dacstreamer/

 

 

I have seen these differences discussed, and it’s quite useful I have one of the DACs measured (micro-iDSD).

 

But I’m not sure how audible raising the noise floor from really damn low to damn low ought to be. ? 

 

Also, I’m not sure how it would relate to the subjective effects I’m thinking I hear, which include greater stability of instrument and vocal positions, an overall better defined and slightly larger soundstage, and increased prominence and ease of following both lead and backing vocals.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

 

now only if Roon could allow me to select among different NAAs ...

 

There’s RealVNC. ? (I know that’s not the convenient all-in-one interface you’re after.)

[Jud]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

Why, oh why? Just release the damn PCM and be done with it.

 

Because everyone knows DSD removes more veils. (Thanks to @jabbr for that last perfect snippet of the quote.  ? )