Network Isolation

[jabbr]

Do you know whether Diablo switches everything behind the scenes to a copper gigabit switch? I.e. no direct optical to optical. If that is the case you could save some money. Of course the one box, one LPSU form factor is very handy.

 

All commonly available ethernet switches have an electrooptical transceiver -- that's what the SFP module is. The SFP does what is known as SERDES (serialization/deserialization) and then the information is sent to a chip within the switch that does the switching.

 

While electrical, these switches don't implement the copper Ethernet transmission & reception interfaces -- also realize that each signal gets converted from electrical to optical and back twice, once when going to the switch and again when leaving the switch, and the second time at the source and destination. Think of this as like 4 serial USB regens each entirely galvanically isolated

 

You will notice however, that the link I reference above discusses the exact same "noise" mechanism that John Swenson has discussed -- that being power supply noise induced by the digital switching itself. So yes a completely optical switch *might* prevent that but such technology is not widely available and most definitely not for $200 on ebay

[ted_b]

Deleted. Posted, instead, over on the Config thread.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/optical-network-configurations-24641/index4.html#post438416

[ted_b]

So now I've isolated, via fiber network, my entire music room setup, including main server, NAA (for HQPlayer), NAS and Signature Rendu (Rendu not connected yet..likely my FMC incompatibility, as per Tranz post).

 

I am coming to an interesting (may be preliminary) conclusion. My signal path to my DAC(s) is sooo clean and noise free now that it affects the tonality and overall musicality of the system...akin to tube rolling, except instead of dialing in or out pleasing sounding tube distortions, it is eliminating noise distortions, never to return. Now system synergy may have been altered slightly, and a rethinking of the mixture might need to take place. That is, in the long run, a good thing, but may require short term decisions. Stay tuned. YMMV.

[ted_b]

I ran into something similar a few days back and ended up ordering an 100base TP Link FMC device since the 1000base would not communicate with my streamer directly (2 lights unlit). The streamer is 100base, and so likely the TP gigabit FMC was not seeing all the necessary wires connected. So for those with 100base devices just keep this in mind when ordering an FMC.

 

As soon as I receive them I will confirm.

 

Perhaps this is what Ted_B was seeing running into during an earlier test too?

 

My first issue was resolved with a simple SFP swap (Cisco instead of Finisar). My Rendu, however, doesn't like either, so it is no-doubt what you discovered...that a 100base renderer does not talk to a 1000base FMC, and what is needed is something like this (or what you ordered)....a 100/1000 one:

TRENDnet TFC-1000MGA 100/1000BASE-T to SFP Media Converter 1 x 10/100/1000Mbps Gigabit port 1 x 100/1000Base-SX/LX Mini-GBIC slot for optional Mini-GBIC modules - Newegg.com

 

I'm contemplating ordering it...as my Rendu has so much engineered into isolation that I'm not sure it matters.

[jabbr]

I ran into something similar a few days back and ended up ordering an 100base TP Link FMC device since the 1000base would not communicate with my streamer directly (2 lights unlit). The streamer is 100base, and so likely the TP gigabit FMC was not seeing all the necessary wires connected. So for those with 100base devices just keep this in mind when ordering an FMC.

 

As soon as I receive them I will confirm.

 

Perhaps this is what Ted_B was seeing running into during an earlier test too?

 

Without knowing which one works :-( I'd advise the 100/1000 Trendnet version because, it claims to work with both 100/1000 base-t ... which is a good thing ... since the TP link 1000base-T version doesn't work with 100base-T, I would be worried that the 100base-T version won't also work with the 1000base version, that is to say that going the 100base only route may cause its own set of problems ... sigh.

 

Please post your results because that will be the only way for the group to know what to do!

[jabbr]

So now I've isolated, via fiber network, my entire music room setup, including main server, NAA (for HQPlayer), NAS and Signature Rendu (Rendu not connected yet..likely my FMC incompatibility, as per Tranz post).

 

I am coming to an interesting (may be preliminary) conclusion. My signal path to my DAC(s) is sooo clean and noise free now that it affects the tonality and overall musicality of the system...akin to tube rolling, except instead of dialing in or out pleasing sounding tube distortions, it is eliminating noise distortions, never to return. Now system synergy may have been altered slightly, and a rethinking of the mixture might need to take place. That is, in the long run, a good thing, but may require short term decisions. Stay tuned. YMMV.

 

I agree. Still room for improvement and I await by regen amber so I can remove the Corning USB ... lots and lots and lots of variables ...

[reverendo]

wow, you guys have been busy...

in the meanwhile the amber regen has just ousted my fmc going into my ethernet input in the DAC

do you think it would better anything if I use it with my Oppo, even if I'm using a glass fiber toslink cable into the DAC?

[ted_b]

in the meanwhile the amber regen has just ousted my fmc going into my ethernet input in the DAC

 

Please explain how a USB hub device had anything to do with your ethernet FMC?

[reverendo]

Please explain how a USB hub device had anything to do with your ethernet FMC?

That's easily explained. I have a DAC that has both an ethernet and a USB input. Since I started using the FMC I ditched the USB input for the ethernet input, because the results were superior. With the REGEN I've gone back to USB, since, the results are better. This, of course, is in my system. I'm also aware that most use the FMC between a router and a server, which is very different from the way I had been using it.

Any ideas in regards to my question above?

[Crom]

Without knowing which one works :-( I'd advise the 100/1000 Trendnet version because, it claims to work with both 100/1000 base-t ... which is a good thing ... since the TP link 1000base-T version doesn't work with 100base-T, I would be worried that the 100base-T version won't also work with the 1000base version, that is to say that going the 100base only route may cause its own set of problems ... sigh.

 

Please post your results because that will be the only way for the group to know what to do!

 

Great thread this. Thanks to all for really constructive information. In case anyone is using windows server 2012, check driver compatibility of the trendnet pcie cards before you buy (if you want to experiment with direct fibre to the pc). I looked into this a while ago and could not get the driver to play ball...even with a little judicious hacking which sometimes works. I've ended up with a gb fibre pcie and am waiting for sfp to arrive before I test.

[Superdad]

...Now system synergy may have been altered slightly, and a rethinking of the mixture might need to take place. That is, in the long run, a good thing, but may require short term decisions….

 

Hi Ted: I think we all have been there over the years. It has been a while, but I can recall some radical changes (in electronics, etc.) that forced me to adjust what had been painstakingly tuned speaker positions.

Heck, even the REGEN makes me want to sit about 1-foot closer to the speakers for it all to really lock into amazement. Weird.

 

--AJC

[reverendo]

do you think it would better anything if I use it with my Oppo, even if I'm using a glass fiber toslink cable into the DAC?

anyone able to chime in here?

[jabbr]

It would likely help and you certainly should try it and let us know the results.

[tranz]

All commonly available ethernet switches have an electrooptical transceiver -- that's what the SFP module is. The SFP does what is known as SERDES (serialization/deserialization) and then the information is sent to a chip within the switch that does the switching.

 

While electrical, these switches don't implement the copper Ethernet transmission & reception interfaces -- also realize that each signal gets converted from electrical to optical and back twice, once when going to the switch and again when leaving the switch, and the second time at the source and destination. Think of this as like 4 serial USB regens each entirely galvanically isolated

 

You will notice however, that the link I reference above discusses the exact same "noise" mechanism that John Swenson has discussed -- that being power supply noise induced by the digital switching itself. So yes a completely optical switch *might* prevent that but such technology is not widely available and most definitely not for $200 on ebay

 

Thanks Jabbr.

 

By the way, I have confirmed in my setup that the 100base streamer requires two 100base FMC units in order to be seen. An 100base coupled with a 1000base failed as well. Good to know for those having trouble connecting or to avoid buying the wrong one.

[jabbr]

I think ted_b found a trendnet FMC that does both 100/1000 which is more likely to connect to 100 on one side and 1000 on the other -- an FMC is a tiny Ethernet switch and going from 100 to 1000 is called an "uplink"

[pl_svn]

ok: pulled the trigger on two TP-Link MC210CS and 2mt single mode optical cable

 

my setup will be: Macmini/NAS/Ethernet switch/1st TP-Link MC (all of these on LPS) > optical cable > 2nd TP-Link MC > router etc (not on LPS)

 

hopefully it will make some difference (or maybe not)

[frederick184]

Received all the items to have some fun this weekend.

 

1 x Mellanox fiber network card for Windows PC - this is the machine I use for HQ Player

2 x TP Link MC220 FMC's - One for my Synology NAS and one for my CAPS PC - I use this as my HQ Player NAA

1 x Diablo 18198 Fiber switch

6 x Cisco SFP's

Fiber LC LC MM patch cables

2 x iFi iPower 9v power supplies - one for FMC at CAPS server end, one for Diablo switch

 

Will report back with my findings. I tried one of the iFi iPower supplies on my Amber Regen last night to replace the Mean Well SMPS. I didn't spend a lot of time listening, but it did sound cleaner. With that said, the Mean Well really isn't that bad at all. I might have to revisit that.

 

Colin

[ted_b]

Received all the items to have some fun this weekend.

 

1 x Mellanox fiber network card for Windows PC - this is the machine I use for HQ Player

2 x TP Link MC220 FMC's - One for my Synology NAS and one for my CAPS PC - I use this as my HQ Player NAA

1 x Diablo 18198 Fiber switch

6 x Cisco SFP's

Fiber LC LC MM patch cables

2 x iFi iPower 9v power supplies - one for FMC at CAPS server end, one for Diablo switch

 

Will report back with my findings. I tried one of the iFi iPower supplies on my Amber Regen last night to replace the Mean Well SMPS. I didn't spend a lot of time listening, but it did sound cleaner. With that said, the Mean Well really isn't that bad at all. I might have to revisit that.

 

Colin

 

Colin,

Looks like a complete list. Enjoy!! My Diablo and iPower arrive Tuesday. In the meantime I am enjoying sig8's TP Link fiber switch before the Diablo replaces it.

 

Might you want to install one run at a time and measure (with your ears) the impact? Of course not that easy of a task as the Diablo will not easily let you run the others as copper in the meantime, so the experiment may have too many variables (i.e having to hang the old copper switch on, etc).

[frederick184]

Ted,

 

I thought about installing the run between my copper switch and my NAA first, to see what kind of impact it had, as that is my longest run of ethernet right now, some 35-40ft. I would use the two FMC's for that purpose. Originally that was all I planned to do, but figured why not just go all the way?

 

Colin

[Vitor]

Hello guys,

 

So I think I'm almost ready to try the FMC with my sOtm sms100.

Will pick up tomorrow the TPLink FMC's, for the moment I have two patch cords and one LPS 12V 2.5A. This LPS is to use with one of the FMC's or in the router?

My actual setup is a RJ45 connected to a TPLink router and to the sOtm directly (no LAN switch).

What are the steps to take now?

[zerung]

Can any confirm why MC200CM is not being used instead of the MC220L? Does the wavelength of the laser matter?

Thanks

[ted_b]

Can any confirm why MC200CM is not being used instead of the MC220L? Does the wavelength of the laser matter?

Thanks

 

Simply due to smaller dual run LC fiber cables and their connectors. The bundle required with single SC connectors (each) becomes too large for pushing through wall areas, etc.

 

Here's jabbr's comment:

The options are dizzying.

 

I'm using the MC220L FMC which uses an SFP (and is cheaper).

 

I am standardizing on LC-LC connections because all the switches use SFP modules and all the SFP modules use LC-LC because SC-SC is too big. I think most of the non SFP FMCs use the SC-SC connector. I'm not going to run SC-SC fiber in my house.

[jabbr]

Simply due to smaller dual run LC fiber cables and their connectors. The bundle required with single SC connectors (each) becomes too large for pushing through wall areas, etc.

 

Here's jabbr's comment:

 

Not only that but you can use singlemode dual LC fiber and SFPs (1350nm) so there is really no benefit to the SC connector.

[zerung]

Thanks Jabbr, Ted,

As I only want to use for Lan isolation only, I think I will stick with the SC connecter and the cheaper, easier interface. I hope the sound benefit is positive.

[frederick184]

Installed everything tonight. It all went together easily and worked with no hiccups. A quick recap -

 

PC running Win 10 with no optimization, Mellanox fiber network card installed

Diablo 18198 fiber switch with Cisco SFPs

Synology NAS connected via TP Link MC220 FMC

CAPS server, used as NAA, running Win Server 2012 with AO 1.30, connected via TP Link MC220 FMC

iFi iPower PS on NAA FMC and Diablo fiber switch

Diablo LC-LC MM fiber patch cords and Blue Jeans Cable 0.5m Cat 6a Ethernet patch cords.

 

Result - pretty dramatic lowering of noise floor, allowing more detail, especially fine detail, to emerge. More realism, and the sense of the artist being there. This is great stuff. Between this and the Amber Regen, my system is sounding the best it has ever sounded...so far!

 

Colin