Trying out MQA for classical listening, questions and observations

[Norton]

I note the extensive criticisms on engineering and business model grounds, but this is an audiophile site, so for me the real test concerns how MQA sounds to me.

 

On the assumption I can borrow a decent compatible DAC for home demo, I've been doing some reading around in preparation.  My interest is mainly classical orchestral, and I don't stream.

 

While I don't buy in to the "vapourware" tag, what strikes me is that there does seem to be very little out there in the way of classical downloads. I count 47 titles on Onkyo Music and 134 on HiResAudio.  I couldn't get into the 2l shop site, but I assume the latter include all 2l titles.  Noting that these include  all classical titles,  not just orchestral, plus the fact that I already have some in DSD and that 2l covers fairly esoteric repertoire, my impression is that MQA, so far, is more a curiosity than a serious contender for my kind of listening.

 

Turning to replay, I understand that there are 3 stages of "unfolding", the first occurring in the replay software prior to sending to the DAC for the remaining 2 stages.  Again, there seem to be few current options here.  As far as I am aware, I can't simply play an MQA file via my BDP or any of the various Win/Linux replay packages I currently use.  From the MQA site it looks like I would  have to use either Amarra or Audirvarna.  Have I understood correctly, what is the MQA file format for example?

 

I imagine I'll end up using the current Tidal  12 day no cc. trial instead (the BDP supports Tidal)  just to satisfy my curiosity.  But longer term, turning to streaming to get MQA would be, as we say, putting the cart before the horse.

 

Am I missing something here?  I also don't think the MQA site does itself any favours, I found the overview of the MQA process confusing (contradictory as to what a renderer does for example).  If they really want to kickstart things, including a searcheable DB of MQA titles and a free download of replay software would get my interest.

 

 

[left channel]

Some MQA DACs, like the Brooklyn+, will do all stages of "unfolding". Only "renderers" like the DragonFly require software decoding ahead of them in the chain.

 

The file format is usually FLAC. The 2L Test Bench offers free classical downloads in hi-res, MQA, and DSD for comparison. There are also a few people compiling free Google spreadsheets of available MQA albums.

Obviously there are many details, but I hope that helps get you started.

[wklie]

27 minutes ago, Norton said:

I understand that there are 3 stages of "unfolding", the first occurring in the replay software prior to sending to the DAC for the remaining 2 stages.

 

I would not characterize those as 3 stages.  Please refer to:

 

Tidal sends 24/44.1 or 24/48 FLAC when you stream a Tidal Master album via a designated Tidal client.  (If you get 16/44.1 for all Tidal Masters albums, your Tidal client does not get MQA streams at all.)  After the first unfold you get MQA Core in 24/88.2 or 24/96.  This can be achieved by Tidal desktop app, Audirvana, Amarra, or Lumin U1, or the rest of Lumin network players in MQA Digital Output mode (in Analog Output mode they perform Full Decoding / unfold instead).

 

In addition to the 12-day free trial, there are 60-day trial from http://tidal.com/masters or 90-day trial via a third party.

 

Please refer to this list for 9900+ Tidal MQA albums (including duplicates):

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=268318

[Norton]

Thanks for feedback so far.  So, presumably as it's just flac and some DACs do all the  unfolding, I can play a MQA download via my BDP and get the full MQA experience?  When I asked the question in Bryston's Audio Circle, I was left with the impression that my BDP would not handle a MQA file. Stereophile's recent review  of the BDP3 upgrade implied the same, to some controversy.  A confusing world for civilians like me....

[wklie]

To play Tidal MQA using a non-MQA DAC, the simplest and free way is to use the Tidal desktop app in Exclusive mode, which will perform the first unfold to MQA Core.  This is not the "Full" experience MQA recommends, but this is better than playing them undecoded.  To get the full MQA benefits you'd need certified MQA DAC or players.

 

If you use a non-MQA DAC, and you don't use any of the MQA Core decoder I mentioned above, then you'll be playing MQA undecoded.

[Norton]

27 minutes ago, wklie said:

To play Tidal MQA using a non-MQA DAC, the simplest and free way is to use the Tidal desktop app in Exclusive mode, which will perform the first unfold to MQA Core.  This is not the "Full" experience MQA recommends, but this is better than playing them undecoded.

 

If you use a non-MQA DAC, and you don't use any of the MQA Core decoder I mentioned above, then you'll be playing MQA undecoded.

 

Thanks, that's useful to know but my real interest is in trying MQA downloads from local storage, rather than via Tidal.  Is there an equivalent free app that will perform the first unfold from local storage?

[alfamatt]

If possible, beg/steal/borrow a Bluesound Node2. This streamer/DAC is fully MQA compatible & is a surprisingly decent unit, especially considering its price.

This will allow you to Trial Tidal & fully decoded MQA to decide for yourself. 

Ah, just seen your latest post, Tidal not being your primary interest. I'd still trial it (for free) though to get a handle as to what MQA/Tidal can give you.

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, Norton said:

Thanks, my real interest though s in trying MQA downloads from local storage, rather than via Tidal.

 

Try to keep in your mind that the "full unfold" is regarded to only be detrimental to SQ (and is regarded to be an upsampling step only). So what you'd like is this last bit under your own control. And this means exactly *not* an MQA DAC.

And as you said, no streaming.

 

[Fokus]

1 hour ago, Norton said:

.  Is there an equivalent free app that will perform the first unfold from local storage?

 

No. Either you pay for a fully-licensed MQA DAC and you use it with any software player*, or you pay for licensed software that does the unfold, or you pay for a licensed streamer such as the Node 2 that does the unfold and exports it on SPDIF.

 

Note that there is only one unfold at most, anything above that is upsampling with MQA-specific filters.

 

* It being up to you to ensure that the output to the DAC always is bit-perfect, otherwise the format is broken and the DAC won’t decode and just plays the baseband signal.

[left channel]

Your Bryston by itself would play downloaded MQA files only in 24/48. Software "unfolding" to 24/96 would probably be all you need to confirm whether or not you like what they've done. (For me, it depends on the artist.) The 15-day Audirvana trial is a possibility.

 

But to fully satisfy my curiosity and hear 24/192 output, I purchased the cheapest desktop MQA-capable DAC I could find: the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital. Then I can play downloaded MQA files through any software player configured to send a bit perfect signal.

 

I enjoy playing with the Pro-Ject, but I keep going back to my non-MQA DAC. That would probably happen even with MQA out of the picture. I prefer the smooth sound created by companies that design around AKM-based DAC chips, vs. the neutral/analytical sound being built around ESS chips in the first generation of MQA hardware.

 

[Dr Tone]

Buy an affordable DAC to try out MQA.  Find out that MQA sounds better on the affordable DAC than the non MQA source and same master.

 

All you've discovered so far is that the particular DAC needs MQA to sound it's best.

 

Do you want to ditch your reference DAC at that point?  Further comparison against it with the same non MQA master is in order.

 

Now maybe the MQA still sounds better.  Are you fine with switching to rented content that you don't know the pedigree?  I'm not.

[realhifi]

If you are that curious about MQA then a purchase ($199) of a Meridian Explorer 2 Dac and downloading the aforementioned 2L files for comparisons would go a ways toward satiating that curiosity. There are probably even places that would sell you that Dac with a 60 day money back trial so really you’d be out nothing but your time. 

 

PS.  Obviously if you signed up for a free Tidal subscription you could compare and listen for yourself also. 

[Norton]

Thanks to all for your feedback, I've got a much better understanding from you than from the MQA website...

[firedog]

5 hours ago, realhifi said:

If you are that curious about MQA then a purchase ($199) of a Meridian Explorer 2 Dac and downloading the aforementioned 2L files for comparisons would go a ways toward satiating that curiosity. There are probably even places that would sell you that Dac with a 60 day money back trial so really you’d be out nothing but your time. 

 

PS.  Obviously if you signed up for a free Tidal subscription you could compare and listen for yourself also. 

If you look online the ME2 can be bought for much less than $199 (closer to $130), which makes the MQA DAC purchase even less of a financial consideration. 

[PeterSt]

Maybe someone can explain ...

Suppose I had this 5K DAC. I carefully selected it ever back and am listening to it for several years. I am actually the most happy with it. Also, I tuned my whole system around it. Is someone now really thinking that I am going to try a $200 toy to judge the merits of something like MQA ? In my mind that theoretically is not going to work. Call it a chicken-egg problem.

[Fokus]

The more so as the Explorer2, like most (all?) MQA DACs, uses a pretty weak reconstruction filter for non-MQA signals. This generates a considerable amount of ultrasonic noise in the 20-30kHz region. Some people and some systems like this, others don't. But reference materials it is not.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/meridian-explorer2-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements

[Norton]

OK so I signed up to Tidal's no strings trial.  I've been playing various MQA tracks but my (non MQA) DAC just reports a 44.1 input.  I had thought that Tidal would be performing the first unfold via the app included with my Bryston BDP, but re-reading the above perhaps not?

[realhifi]

10 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Maybe someone can explain ...

Suppose I had this 5K DAC. I carefully selected it ever back and am listening to it for several years. I am actually the most happy with it. Also, I tuned my whole system around it. Is someone now really thinking that I am going to try a $200 toy to judge the merits of something like MQA ? In my mind that theoretically is not going to work. Call it a chicken-egg problem.

 

I happen to know some folks where that is exactly the situation they are in. One has a full Audio Research Ref set of electronics with one of the better Metrum dacs (and also the second best Chord Dac) in their system and they purchased a Meridian Explorer 2 to see what the fuss was about MQA. They found that on MQA material they thought it was some of the best digital they had ever heard. They are now waiting to see which companies embrace MQA and getting ready to audition some better MQA dacs with the intention of purchasing one this year. 

[realhifi]

37 minutes ago, Norton said:

OK so I signed up to Tidal's no strings trial.  I've been playing various MQA tracks but my (non MQA) DAC just reports a 44.1 input.  I had thought that Tidal would be performing the first unfold via the app included with my Bryston BDP, but re-reading the above perhaps not?

I would check the settings in Tidal as to what it’s outputting on your computer. By the way, it’s only through the Tidal desktop program that MQA does a first “unfold”. 

[wklie]

1 hour ago, Norton said:

OK so I signed up to Tidal's no strings trial.  I've been playing various MQA tracks but my (non MQA) DAC just reports a 44.1 input.  I had thought that Tidal would be performing the first unfold via the app included with my Bryston BDP, but re-reading the above perhaps not?

 

For playback on a non-MQA DAC without additional hardware purchase, you can only use official Tidal Windows app or official Tidal Mac OS app or Audirvana or Amarra to perform the first unfold to MQA Core.  If you use any app that is supplied by a manufacturer, that manufacturer has to be a MQA licensee and the player needs to be MQA certified (e.g. Lumin).

 

In Tidal desktop app, choose quality as Master and turn on Exclusive Mode.

[Ron Scubadiver]

I find it hard to understand why encoding information outside of the audible range in a lossy stream makes any sense at all.

[wklie]

1 hour ago, realhifi said:

I happen to know some folks where that is exactly the situation they are in. One has a full Audio Research Ref set of electronics with one of the better Metrum dacs (and also the second best Chord Dac) in their system and they purchased a Meridian Explorer 2 to see what the fuss was about MQA. They found that on MQA material they thought it was some of the best digital they had ever heard. They are now waiting to see which companies embrace MQA and getting ready to audition some better MQA dacs with the intention of purchasing one this year. 

 

I find it interesting that people who like Chord sound (which favors ringing - Rob Watts RMAF2017 presentation) happen to appreciate MQA (which minimizes ringing).  I see them as opposite approaches...

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Norton said:

OK so I signed up to Tidal's no strings trial.  I've been playing various MQA tracks but my (non MQA) DAC just reports a 44.1 input.  I had thought that Tidal would be performing the first unfold via the app included with my Bryston BDP, but re-reading the above perhaps not?

You have to use the PC app (not the browser), go into settings, and tell MQA to do the first unfold

[firedog]

6 hours ago, Fokus said:

The more so as the Explorer2, like most (all?) MQA DACs, uses a pretty weak reconstruction filter for non-MQA signals. This generates a considerable amount of ultrasonic noise in the 20-30kHz region. Some people and some systems like this, others don't. But reference materials it is not.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/meridian-explorer2-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements

Is it still the case that ALL MQA DACs use the MQA filter for non MQA files once the MQA filter has been engaged? I thought this was a bug of just certain MQA DACs.

[firedog]

11 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Maybe someone can explain ...

Suppose I had this 5K DAC. I carefully selected it ever back and am listening to it for several years. I am actually the most happy with it. Also, I tuned my whole system around it. Is someone now really thinking that I am going to try a $200 toy to judge the merits of something like MQA ? In my mind that theoretically is not going to work. Call it a chicken-egg problem.

Using the toy DAC to compare MQA to non MQA should give you an idea of the relative merits , not how it will sound in a better DAC.

 

MQA people and people like Stereophile and others in the audiophile press say it does and how wonderful MQA sounds through the ME2. Some of their positive reviews of MQA have been based on listening with the ME2.

 

So if you try it and aren't impressed, then I'd say you should believe MQA/Stereophile and decide that the ME2 proved to you that you don't really like it.