Ayre Codex, Lampizator Amber, Schiit Yggy, exaSound e32, and Ayre QX-5, DAC Comparison -A Short Story

[beerandmusic]

53 minutes ago, d_elm said:

ExaSound uses a custom driver they will not release for inclusion in Linux. SOtM, Sonore, etc, renderers cannot compete.

Figured something along those lines (e.g. driver)....I knew there had to be some reason they couldn't compete that was not related to SQ.

[Cyrus]

@MJ-10   Great story on the progression to your current endpoint. I enjoyed the long read!

 

I've had a Yggdrasil in my system as my primary DAC for a decent length of time now. I should have the Denafrips Terminator in system by Wednesday.

 

This will be my first serious head-to-head DAC comparison. I will include the Exogal Comet-Plus which is my secondary system DAC.

 

I will not have any return pressure as I have purchased all DACs outright.

 

I (hopefully) will not have any in-system change ups during the comparison period.

 

And all DACs will be thoroughly run in, in parallel (secondary systems) which means I will not get into the thick of it until late November.

 

MJ-10  and others:  Advice on the best way to move forward with this?

 

My main concern, and it's something I struggle with in comparisons I read, is that my current system has been optimized with the Yggy in it.

 

Secondary concerns are my focus on 'Redbook' PCM  and USB only for this eval.

[Narcissus]

9 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

I would love to hear if you buy and compare for an HONEST comparison...I truly believe that many people once they outlay a bit of cash on a piece of equipment, that they immediately become biased...OMG, it's the best ever, nothing can beat this...it is so MUCH better.  The thing i like about this review is the author stated he believes he got 95% of his current sq out of a much less expensive product that he bought, which makes the review believable.  So many times I hear, OMG, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and then i try it and am less than impressed....so if you do buy one, please share an honest opinion....If you tell me it's 5% better than the ifi micro, then I probably wouldn't buy it, but if you tell me its 20% or more, then it would be a serious contender.  I have yet to hear anything in the dac world worthy of praise....but perhaps that is because i use native dsd files that i play over and over a million times for comparison purposes, and to my ears, nothing has sounded notably better than streaming native dsd through a cheap dac or even an embedded dac in a cheap blu-ray player....

Which is exactly my dilemma, I really have my doubts the Codex could better the idsd micro while listening to native DSD 128 and above, coz that's what I usually listen to, somehow I prefer DSD over PCM coz it just sounds right to MY ears.

 

The codex has a limitation of playing only uptil 128dsd which is also something to ponder upon, whereas the ifi is an OCTA DAC.

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, Narcissus said:

Which is exactly my dilemma, I really have my doubts the Codex could better the idsd micro while listening to native DSD 128 and above, coz that's what I usually listen to, somehow I prefer DSD over PCM coz it just sounds right to MY ears.

 

The codex has a limitation of playing only uptil 128dsd which is also something to ponder upon, whereas the ifi is an OCTA DAC.

Yes, i have tried many products, where people suggest "OMG-greatest thing ever", and have been less than impressed....

 

On a side note, it may not be DOP that you think is best...if it's a different ASIO driver, that may be the real difference.  when talking usb, i think ASIO drivers usually sounds best, but still believe that ethernet is trump.

[semente]

7 hours ago, Cyrus said:

@MJ-10   Great story on the progression to your current endpoint. I enjoyed the long read!

 

I've had a Yggdrasil in my system as my primary DAC for a decent length of time now. I should have the Denafrips Terminator in system by Wednesday.

 

This will be my first serious head-to-head DAC comparison. I will include the Exogal Comet-Plus which is my secondary system DAC.

 

I will not have any return pressure as I have purchased all DACs outright.

 

I (hopefully) will not have any in-system change ups during the comparison period.

 

And all DACs will be thoroughly run in, in parallel (secondary systems) which means I will not get into the thick of it until late November.

 

MJ-10  and others:  Advice on the best way to move forward with this?

 

My main concern, and it's something I struggle with in comparisons I read, is that my current system has been optimized with the Yggy in it.

 

Secondary concerns are my focus on 'Redbook' PCM  and USB only for this eval.

 

The first thing I'd do is trying to identify shortcomings in your current DACs performance. There's little chance of upgrading if you don't know what needs improvement.

And unless your speakers have a distinct sonic signature I would not worry too much about the "optimized with the Yggy in it" for the purpose of this comparison.

Choose adequate recordings that put a stress on particular aspects of performance but also perform non-critical listening sessions focusing on the musical side of the recordings. I'd avoid A-B'ing but that is a personal decision.

[Cyrus]

2 hours ago, semente said:

 

The first thing I'd do is trying to identify shortcomings in your current DACs performance. There's little chance of upgrading if you don't know what needs improvement.

And unless your speakers have a distinct sonic signature I would not worry too much about the "optimized with the Yggy in it" for the purpose of this comparison.

Choose adequate recordings that put a stress on particular aspects of performance but also perform non-critical listening sessions focusing on the musical side of the recordings. I'd avoid A-B'ing but that is a personal decision.

 

@semente  That's very helpful. Thank you! 

 

I'm less concerned about the speakers...I'm more concerned about my cabling choices. I recently completed a USB cable comparison. It was difficult yet very educational. It was also the first time I did an in-depth evaluation and with more than two cables (six in this case). 

 

As @MJ-10 's journey points out, he added 'higher level' cabling into his system which made a difference for him. I'm well along the way with cabling but I know which links may be improved upon. For example, I chose the Cardas Clear Reflection ICs for my headphone system. They are performing very well in the 2ch system, but the choice was made for a different application and goals.

 

I'm good with the choice of recordings and the focus on specific aspects within the recording.

 

As you suggest, I will not be doing back and forth A-B comparisons; I am planning on living with each DAC for a while, especially the newest one, and to re-familiarize myself with the Exogal in my main system. If I do any swapping it will be at the end of the comparison.

 

CA'istis,  any additional thoughts and perspective?

 

[MJ-10]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 12:53 PM, leftside said:

I'm also considering another Lampizator for another room. Probably the regular Atlantic, though I would have considered the Amber if it had a balanced connection. 

 

@leftside Actually the Amber can be had with balanced connections for an additional $1,000 EURO. I originally opted for the RCA connection because I had the Parasound P5 with XLR connections, but I didn't believe it was truly balanced. If I had it to do over I would certainly go with the Balanced connections on the Amber.  I didn't test the headphone capabilities of the e32 but I would recommend giving it a try by running the e32 into your headphone amp.  i don't believe the e32 sound quality is compromised with the inclusion of a headphone amp that's not being used. I had to also resist the thought that money was being wasted on a component that I would never use.  The e32 just gave the best sound quality for the money in this study. So you can view the headphone amp as a plus and not as if it's superfluous. 

[MJ-10]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 11:31 AM, beetlemania said:

 That was a LOT of new gear in a short amount of time. So, what *is* your current system?

@beetlemania My small rig includes Classe CT-2300 300 Watt 2-Channel amp (available for $4,500 on US Audiomart), Ayre Codex (available for $1400 on US Audiomart), Martin Logan Vantages, Samsung K8500 4k Blu-Ray Player, Blue Jeans speaker cables and balanced interconnects.

[MJ-10]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 6:48 PM, 1markr said:

Good review MJ, and great story-telling! I really enjoyed it.

 

I assume that you tested the DACs with their native power sources, whether factory power cords, or stock AC adapters and such? The reason I bring that up.... well, I'm a happy ExaSound E32 user, and have been most of this year (ran an E12 for a year or so before that), but I run it off of DC power from an SLA battery, which made a substantial improvement to transient responses of the DAC, and it put a little more "meat on the bones"  on instruments and performers as it laid out the sonic picture. 

 

As for comparisons, the only thing I can add is that I much preferred the ExaSound E12 to the Holo Spring Lev 3 DAC, that I also owned, and it was fully broken in.  The Holo was just too laid back for me, and didn't get my blood flowing listening to my tunes. Both were driven off of USB.

@1markr  Well, not exactly.  On a new purchase I have a habit of trying to keep all of my manuals, cords, bags packaging and accessories as untouched as possible.  The goal is to have the product appear as next to new as possible should I ever have the notion to sell or trade the unit.  Consequently I use the power cords that are unused and swimming in what my wife calls a "rats nest" of wires residing behind my system. I just recently purchased my first aftermarket PowerChord by Audience.  Prior to purchasing the PowerChord I had yet to actually hear a difference in any of the power cords I had auditioned. The e32 used the standard power unit but the long power cord that rests between the powersupply and the wall outlet was replaced with a 6" version to help keep the nest from growing. The other DACs used the cords I had already available and are all sizeable products and assumed to be adequate, but they were not all OEM.

 

[MJ-10]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 3:33 PM, beerandmusic said:

 

Just curious....prior to starting this 2 month journey you mentioned you used the oppo 105.

Did you use that to stream files, or how did you play files before the journey?  Did you have any external dac before?  What music players did you previously use before (e.g. jriver or?)  I believe you said you used a standard notebook for playing files?  Do you have dsd files for your comparison testing?

 

Thanks

@beerandmusic  I used the OPPO 105D previously to play my FLAC and DSD files.  This was my first entry into the foray of DAC equipment, other than my Schiit Lyr/Bifrost Headphone DAC/AMP combo (soon to be available on Audiogon). Even with that setup I didn't do any DSD streaming, I would only stream music from TIDAL to the BIFROST or play SACDs directly to the LYR.  When rendering FLAC and DSD files I would use the OPPO on the big rig.  I just got into the music players with my recent Jriver23 purchase and ROON subscription. I use a little 13” Dell Inspirion 7000  Laptop i3 2.3GHz, 8Gb Ram, Windows10, 120Gb SSD, with two 1Gb SSD drives for additional storage. I used DSD files up to 256DSD for comparison testing. It was with the higher resolution files where the DACs showed the most differentiation; which would seem to be an obvious expectation.  But, since the YGGY didn’t support native DSD I started my comparisons with TIDAL tracks and FLAC files because that was common ground. Looking back I should have focused my comparisons primarily with DSD.  I spent a lot of time with DSD tracts but should have started with DSD and worked my way down to TIDAL streaming.

[exa]

11 hours ago, MJ-10 said:

 

@leftside     ....I didn't test the headphone capabilities of the e32 but I would recommend giving it a try by running the e32 into your headphone amp.  i don't believe the e32 sound quality is compromised with the inclusion of a headphone amp that's not being used. I had to also resist the thought that money was being wasted on a component that I would never use.  The e32 just gave the best sound quality for the money in this study. So you can view the headphone amp as a plus and not as if it's superfluous. 

I use a pair of Sennheiser HD800 plugged in directly to the e32 as a main tool for subjective evaluation. I also recommend to customers that have coloration, resolution or dynamics issues with their systems to plug a pair of good headphones directly to the e32. This is the best way to examine the true voice of the e32 since there are no other active components involved. It has enough power to drive very demanding headphones.

[Nikhil]

On 11/2/2017 at 10:23 PM, leftside said:

Nice review. I'm also considering another Lampizator for another room. Probably the regular Atlantic, though I would have considered the Amber if it had a balanced connection.

 

https://www.lampizatorpoland.com/amber-2-dac

 

See the bottom middle image in the link above.  It does exist.

 

 

[leftside]

Indeed it does. Balanced Amber 2 for 2500 euro. That's great value.

[beerandmusic]

On 11/4/2017 at 2:07 PM, exa said:

Single unit DAC/Steamer is the way to go. Feel free to suggest features.

 

since you asked...

 

 

[MikeJazz]

On 04/11/2017 at 9:07 PM, exa said:

Single unit DAC/Steamer is the way to go. Feel free to suggest features.

 

Using a PlayPoint and DAC combo has a positive side - two separate external power supplies. (We can also offer a dual Teddy Pardo LPS. )

 

The suggested price point is not that easy to achieve. When you consider the Galvanic isolation, re-clocking FIFO buffer, 32bit custom asynchronous interface, 11 linear regulators, 4 clocks, FPGA core, headphone amp, DAC chip @ $75, touch screen, CPU and RAM sufficient to run a Roon Core, the component count and the complexity is significant. Keep in mind we do all the development in-house and we do manual assembly in Toronro, Canada. Sonically we compete with devices in the higher category.

 

The PlayPoint network player is tightly integrated with our DACs. So are our custom drivers on Windows and Mac. Our drivers bypass the Windows sound system and we offer ASIO on Mac that eliminates Core Audio.  Either scenarios, computer + drivers + DAC or PlayPoint + DAC are highly optimized. I prefer the PlayPoint scenario.  It brings the experience to a higher level and it is far more stable. It is easy to setup and use.  No drivers to install  The PlayPoint works with Roon, HQPlayer, Audirvana, UPnP/OpenHome Airplay and MPD. 

 

I should not be the one to compare exaSound with SOTM.  They offer great products. Our unfair advantage is that we have control over the entire signal path - software and hardware. They offer great value and compatibility with so many DACs. In their case the end result depends on the quality of the third-party DAC.

Hello exa!

 

I am curious if it's possible to use NAA as a end point to the PP's Roon Server ?

I suppose it's not possible which means one would have to use another Roon Server on the network and output to the NAA in the PP. Please confirm...thanks!

[exa]

5 hours ago, MikeJazz said:

Hello exa!

 

I am curious if it's possible to use NAA as a end point to the PP's Roon Server ?

I suppose it's not possible which means one would have to use another Roon Server on the network and output to the NAA in the PP. Please confirm...thanks!

Hello Mike,  NAA can be an end point only for HQPlayer so yes, you need another Roon server.

[ClaytonJ2]

I have an Exasound e20, it's the best sounding DAC I've had yet. I'm listening to it with Sennheiser HD800 headphones. It's got the best headphone output of any DAC I've tried. I've also got Integra dhc-80.3 and an Oppo BDP-105, which I've tried with these headphones and haven't been satisfied. I'm still flipping back and forth between it's output and using it with this 25 pound tube Z-infinity amp. Plugging into the DAC gets me more detail, gets me a little closer to the sound which is good when I'm editing. It's not at all fatiguing, but reveals everything.

I'm a bit skeptical of the assertion that source doesn't matter, but I don't know what they're listening to. The most important equipment is all of it. No sound system can sound better than the weakest link in the chain. If you read equipment reviews, you'll find lots of good suggestions for reference recordings that might be more enlightening for the differences between equipment. You might have to go a little outside of your comfort zone for music genre. Be careful with expensive high def downloads or vinyl, read reviews before you pay. It's a buyer beware world.

[beerandmusic]

55 minutes ago, ClaytonJ2 said:

I have an Exasound e20, it's the best sounding DAC I've had yet. I'm listening to it with Sennheiser HD800 headphones. It's got the best headphone output of any DAC I've tried. I've also got Integra dhc-80.3 and an Oppo BDP-105, which I've tried with these headphones and haven't been satisfied. I'm still flipping back and forth between it's output and using it with this 25 pound tube Z-infinity amp. Plugging into the DAC gets me more detail, gets me a little closer to the sound which is good when I'm editing. It's not at all fatiguing, but reveals everything.

I'm a bit skeptical of the assertion that source doesn't matter, but I don't know what they're listening to. The most important equipment is all of it. No sound system can sound better than the weakest link in the chain. If you read equipment reviews, you'll find lots of good suggestions for reference recordings that might be more enlightening for the differences between equipment. You might have to go a little outside of your comfort zone for music genre. Be careful with expensive high def downloads or vinyl, read reviews before you pay. It's a buyer beware world.

 

I hope exasound can come out with a streamer/dac (since they themselves stated that would be "optimal"), at an affordable price point to meet a broader customer base.  What is the link to the reference music? 

[johndoe21ro]

9 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

I hope exasound can come out with a streamer/dac (since they themselves stated that would be "optimal"), at an affordable price point to meet a broader customer base.  What is the link to the reference music? 

 

Do you have an interest in any of the DACs discussed here? Maybe you enjoy trolling around! I've read your posts in this thread so far and I can't seem to find any valuable information or interest in any of them...

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, johndoe21ro said:

 

Do you have an interest in any of the DAC in discussion?

 

Specifically, i am looking for a network player (streamer/dac) with a $2K budget, similar to the Lumina D1....

 

[jventer]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Specifically, i am looking for a network player (streamer/dac) with a $2K budget, similar to the Lumina D1....

 

Just check out Allo.com - way below your budget and getting good reviews.

[mazuly]

On 11/3/2017 at 6:50 AM, MJ-10 said:

Only if they shipped it with that upgrade.  I also didn't make any firmware updates to any of the units.  I just pulled them out of their boxes and plugged them in.  Because it was all new equipment I didn't think to check.  However the QX-5/20 did make a network upgrade on it's own.   I will try to reach out to Schiit to try to confirm.  If the Yggy did not have the best and most up to date equipment that will not bode well for my therapeutic recovery.  I am not sure that I mentioned that I am almost completely new to this HiRez music format and I have found there is a lot to learn.  Previously I would play SACDs and DVDAudio disks thru my OPPO 105D.  I also used the OPPO to play all of my FLAC and DSD files.  Prior to two months ago I never owned Roon or JRiver. I had by OPPO and didn't see the need.  Then I auditioned the Codex and bam, look at my system now. It was a quick an tumultuous drop into this abyss but I never new all of my music could sound soo good. 

Great write up.

 

Have a listen to Audirvana Plus software as well if you run Mac.  It may give another boost to your DAC sound.

[Blackstone]

The QX-5 Twenty and the KX-5 are both the true stars, without question and I’d say they are about equally important. The QX-5 and KX-5 are both units to aspire to. Those two units probably have the biggest influence on the sound and they work together spectacularly well. Once you have QX-5 for a while, you are just plain spoiled it really is quite good. I don’t think the QB-9 or Codex come close.

 

I think the power amp is perhaps more a matter of taste and synergy with your speakers. I think the Ayre DAC and PRE are so good that just they will boost any system and are no brainers, but there is room to experiment with power amps. I could see a pair of Boulder mono blocks for example being a good fit. Of course Ayre has their own mono blocks. I love the 5 series amp, I am just not quite as certain about it as the dac and pre.

 

Having said that I have QX-5, AX-5 Twenty, Transparent ref cabling and power conditoning, Transparent Premium USB cable, ect, and B&W 802D speakers and performance is so incredibly good I could probably just end it there and be satisified. First time in decades in the hobby that I feel like the music is the focus and not the gear. 

 

I think the cables and power conditioning makes up that last 15% that puts the system into the “I could sit here and listen all day” stratosphere. I just stick with Transparent for that stuff they always deliver.

 

Glad to see the Ayre gear is getting the love it deserves.

[MJ-10]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 10:50 PM, Cyrus said:

MJ-10  and others:  Advice on the best way to move forward with this?

@semente My apologies for the delayed response, you may have posted your review already?   I got lost in the music and with working overtime to try to afford my new purchases.   I’ve not enjoyed this hobby this much since my days as a nightclub DJ back in college; for obvious reasons.   

Back to your question as to how to proceed… The advantage you have is you know what you are wanting to accomplish from the beginning.  I didn’t plan to post a review when I started so I didn’t take copious notes. I was just tring to make a final purchasing decision.  If I had it to do over, I would focus on making a record of everything; what I like, dislike, found similar, unique, odd, common, etc. etc. 

I would make a record of my every thought, but in the form of dictation.  I suggest taking numerous notes in the form of recorded dictation so your thoughts get captured without hindering your listening experience. You can even dictate as you listen, referencing your thoughts on what you hear as the track is recorded in the background like a score to your dictated thoughts.  Then when you think you have had enough, play the tape back, and the review will reveal itself.   Then organize those thoughts into sentences and paragraphs and the review will write itself. I can’t wait to read it.  Enjoy…

[MJ-10]

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 6:08 AM, Blackstone said:

I think the cables and power conditioning makes up that last 15% that puts the system into the “I could sit here and listen all day” stratosphere.

 

@Blackstone I am so glad to read this post. I was beginning to think that maybe I was delirious.  But in the back of my mind I knew I wasn’t the only one.  When Peter @ TheCableCo helped me outfit my system with a FULL LOOM of Audience Au24Sx interconnects and speaker cables, I just couldn’t  regress to my old setup.

 

It took a while.  I had to scourer to find used interconnects in great shape at good prices, but I finally have a full loom of Audience Au24 SX. Now, I too have that exact same thought, almost daily.  I am cautious about applying a numerical value to the musical impact of any piece of equipment as those numbers can be misinterpreted.  But I do agree the QX-5/20 and KX-5/20 is an awesome paring.  If my CODEX had just one more input I may have never considered venturing elsewhere.  

 

SPOILED by the QX-5/20 is a good way to describe it.  I originally felt 3-BNC, 3-Optical, 2-USB, 1-Ethernet, 2-AES/EBU, was only necessary for professional use and for a home based system it’s overkill times five.  But I now have a good portion of those inputs put to use and I enjoy my system that much more as a result.  Why would I not want to listen to everything (and I do mean EVERYTHINIG) coming thru my DAC?  While recovering from the flu I just binge watched the last three seasons of Game of Thrones thru the QX-5/20 and I enjoyed it that much more as a result of the increased audio element. 

 

And maybe it’s because I’ve rolled so many DACs recently that I am just totally enamored with the KX-5/20’s contribution to the sound of my system. I don’t know how many other pre-amplifiers use the variable gain approach but that has to be the quintessential difference.  My Parasound P5, and apparently every other preamplifier I have ever owned, attenuated the volume down to a noise floor that remained constant .  I’ve read about the difference of variable gain in every review I found on the KX-5/20.  But living with it is what allowed me to finally understand that turning up the volume on an attenuated system allows more of the sound to come thru only to and share the stage with the noise that is always present and at a constant level.  I no longer have the desire to blast the volume because with the variable gain approach the lower the volume the lower the amount of overall noise.   It simply astounds me that I now actually prefer the volumes at low to moderate levels.  I secretly believe me finding the KX-5/20 is God’s way of helping to save my hearing.

 

@Blackstone, But back to your point, I don’t know about your 15% quantitative value applied to the musical influence of interconnects. But I must agree my final cabling selection took my system from the best digital system I have ever heard bar none, to damn near placing me into a catatonic trance, track after tract, album after album, day after day.